Why is the Sun Setting North of Due West? - I Am Above The Tropic of Cancer

originally posted by: cooperton
Thank you for catching the semantic slip. *just south of the arctic circle* on December 21st... how is the sun rising above the horizon when the north pole is angled away from the sun at its full 23.4 degrees?

Yeah, so if you are INSIDE the arctic circle then the Sun wouldn't come over the horizon on Dec 21st as you are are angled away from the Sun the whole time, but if you are just South of the AC then the Sun would just peep over a bit as you are just far enough away from the pole to not be angled away from the sun 100% of the day.

Actually, is that how "Arctic Circle" is defined? (I know I could Google it but...meh)

EDIT: I did the Googling and yep that is how the term Arctic Circle is defined - the northernmost lattitude where the Sun breaks the horizon on minwinters day / stays above it all day on midsummers day!

I also didn't know why the tropic of capricorn / cancer were where they are until this thread. ATS is very educational sometimes!

I've observed the same phenomenon here.

The Sun is shining on the north side of my house for the first time since I have lived at my current location. It's shaded in the am, then getting full Sun by mid-day. It has never done this.

FWIW: I mentioned this same thing to my family members weeks ago as we have also noticed there is more daylight than there has ever been also. Longer dawn time and twilight periods.

...........and no it's not related to that time of year folks! It's a real observation.

I was getting into reading this thread until some of you reminded me of why I don't participate in discussion forums any more.

originally posted by: Sherwood315
I was getting into reading this thread until some of you reminded me of why I don't participate in discussion forums any more.

Too much fact or too much ignorance?

originally posted by: cheesyleps

Lines of latitude ARE PARALLEL TO EACH OTHER! They are even named as "Parallels of Latitude".

math.youngzones.org...

Check out axiom #5 in that link. There are no parallel lines in spherical geometry. Cats are said to have 9 lives, but they don't actually have 9 lives, similarly, parallels of latitude are not actually parallel.

a reply to: cooperton
Latitudes aren't lines. Read your link.

There are no parallel lines in spherical geometry.

great circles...

It is easy to see that the circle of intersection will be largest when the plane passes through the center of the sphere.

Such a circle is called a great circle. A geographic example of a great circle is the equator.

The meridians of longitude form exactly half a great circle. The parallels of latitude are small circles, except for the equator.

two lines (great circles) drawn on the sphere will intersect in two places. In geography, these are known as antipodal points

I've also noticed sunsets (brightness) being a bit 'to the north' recently, maybe others online will also notice soon

a reply to: cooperton

It's the same reason that flight paths APPEAR to be curved on a flat (Cartesian) map.

Obviously the planes fly as straight as possible, but the path appears to be a curve because you are not looking at the overhead view of a curved globe when looking at a flat map.

Two cities that are exactly the same latitude would be connected by a line-of-sight that actually curves upward on a flat map, and lines of latitude actually curve SOUTH when viewed from a direct overhead view on a spherical globe. And then remember it's also summer. Furthermore the earth is not cylindrical, so the further north you go in the summer, actually the further NORTH the sun appears to set because the upper latitudes are a much smaller diameter, so you end up seeing the sun longer into it's movement (earths rotation actually)

a reply to: cooperton

You have your globe from before still? Find lines of longitude that intersect. Easy isn't it? They all converge at the north and south Pole as they are all great circles (if you include their opposing meridian).

Now try that with the lines of latitude. You can't do it. Latitudinal lines don't converge because they aren't great circles but small circles.

The test is simple. Imagine your globe is soft and can be cut. Cut all the way along any line. If it would give you two identical hemispheres as a result, then you started with a great circle. If you don't, it was a small circle.

Find the line for any latitude between 40 and 60 degrees. Imagine making that slice and try telling me you have two balanced hemispheres. Even you can't do that, surely?

a reply to: thestillborn1

Spending many years ignorant to natural phenomena does not mean there has been a sudden change when you finally begin noticing it.

There are thousands of professional marine and aeronautical navigators (such as myself) who rely on everyday observations of celestial bodies to stay alive. I can guarantee everyone on this thread that if my celestial. Navigation calculations were no longer valid, you would all know about it!

A few drunken 'inuit elders' attempting to make a few bucks or people who have never observed the sum suddenly becoming experts is not testimony anyone should be taking seriously.

originally posted by: cooperton


Anyone living above the tropic of cancer should observe a sunset that is south of due west. So, Why is the sunset north of due west?

Incorrect. You are confusing the solar angle with azimuth. The solar angle at peak (tropic of cancer in N. hemisphere 23.5degrees) has NOTHING to do with how high or low the sun sets on the horizon (azimuth).




Take a look at that picture again, and notice that in the image on the left (summer) if you are in N. America, you would have to look ABOVE due east to have direct line-of-sight to the sun as it rises. Looking due east would have you looking 23.5° BELOW the plane of the solar system, so OF COURSE you have to look above the parallel during sunrise/sunset in order to see the point of intersection. Literally take that picture and draw a line directly from the center of NA to the sun. If it were to scale, it would be even HIGHER because the sun is much further out.

Since the lit side of the planet is sitting LOWER in the summer, then as the planet rotates away, your eyes must look to HIGHER latitudes to follow the sun.

a reply to: cooperton
It happens, as things change and shift a lot more will change then the slight degree of the suns rays on earth. Just you know, go along with it. Don't want to spook those who would see there own shadows.

Science is invented latter to explain the observable world, and then much latter the observable world is used to explain science. We are in the first part of that stage leading into that second stage were science itself is questioned some even speculate that science itself may be influenced by human designs and perceptions, some are even starting to suspect that science can be bought. Like a kid with a new toy, its all encompassing till one really looks at it longer.

Basically semantics of the mind. Humans are a group thought creature, anything that is not on the narrative does not register. Return to your daily scheduled programing, do not question the sun. Every new generation things shift in minute details both in the observable world then much latter things are written down in the textbooks so the populous can cope and to explain what has happened in there lifetimes.

a reply to: RoScoLaz4

how about simply correcting any perceived mistakes without the endless snide and derogatory remarks?

Because, when you do that, you get this:

Originally posted by cooperton
Yes, but that diagram you showed uses a flat earth to demonstrate that. Is this what you are saying?

Is the person who wrote that raising an honest objection, or are they seeking deliberately to obscure and confuse the issue?

Some people, absurd as it seems, are declared enemies of science and rationality. Like Martin Luther, they despise reason and believe a lie told in God's service is no sin but an act of merit.

Did you really think this thread was an honest inquiry, prompted by someone who genuinely wants the correct answer? Read some of the OP'S previous threads.

originally posted by: galadofwarthethird
a reply to: cooperton
It happens, as things change and shift a lot more will change then the slight degree of the suns rays on earth.

...

Return to your daily scheduled programing, do not question the sun. Every new generation things shift in minute details both in the observable world then much latter things are written down in the textbooks so the populous can cope and to explain what has happened in there lifetimes.

Yeah, but it's been mentioned on this thread that:

1, There are people who depend on the Sun (and other celestial bodies) being regular and predictable to navigate who would be raising a fuss if it were off.

2, There are almanacs printed decades ago that have the position of the celestial bodies listed way into the future, these would be off if something had changed and people would know.

You can't even argue for a "Mandella Effect" style change here if you get what I mean, unless we have the first Mandella Effect to change the laws of physics and geometry. Then again there are also people in the thread ready to swear up and down that the Sun now shines through a different window in their house nowadays.

a reply to: Vasteel

1, There are people who depend on the Sun (and other celestial bodies) being regular and predictable to navigate who would be raising a fuss if it were off.

Does not matter. As long as they are all read from the same book, even if its not quite on right or on the mark, its pretty close and they will all navigate to the same place. Basically if they are on same page they will all navigate to the same place and markings even if it all that is off somewhat or may be even completely wrong.

It's not about who is right or wrong its about them all being on the same mindframe in sync believe is a powerful thing ya know. Even faulty believe if its believed by millions or billions of people takes a life of its own. Do you need examples of this? Well just look at all of history and that would be but a glimpse of this fact.

A faulty map, even faulty like it is will work if millions or billions of people believe it will still be correct in getting people places simply because of that fact. The details can be worked out latter on what does not exactly match according to what they see, that is if they even notice it.

Its like the millions and millions of people driving the highways each and every day, they could pass by there grandma on the streets and would not notice because there in driving mode, and they would all still get to the destination planed if they all use the same faulty maps.

2, There are almanacs printed decades ago that have the position of the celestial bodies listed way into the future, these would be off if something had changed and people would know.

Yes they have lots of old and outdated things out there. Its nothing new. Pun intended.

You can't even argue for a "Mandella Effect" style change here if you get what I mean, unless we have the first Mandella Effect to change the laws of physics and geometry. Then again there are also people in the thread ready to swear up and down that the Sun now shines through a different window in their house nowadays.

Who cares you know? Perspectives for all intensive purposes may as well be different dimensions as far as people measure them from there perspective, expressions on those dimensions differ by wordage and language used, its not the differentials that matter, merely the effect of semi coherence. Were not going for minute details and all that, not many would even know or understand anyways.

Its more like..Ah close enouph, now lets all just agree that it is so. So what, sometimes the sun may be a little off. No biggie, stuff happens ya know.

a reply to: galadofwarthethird

No, it isn't 'no biggie' it is something that would be hugely influential. You are completely missing the point regarding old almanacs which can still be used now. They identify that NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

Your quasi-spiritualist mumbo jumbo is not of any relevance to this question. Belief does not influence reality. History does not prove this.

You sir, are a moron of the first order.

a reply to: galadofwarthethird

Hopefully one of the "navigators" on here can clear up how "off" something would need to be in order to be unavoidably noticable.

I personally would not notice the Sun setting a degree or two off where it should be, or a map being slightly out. If the Sun rose in West for example though it would be global news - the Earth would pretty much have had to start spinning the other way or done a 180 flip on its axis lol.

originally posted by: Vasteel
a reply to: galadofwarthethird

Hopefully one of the "navigators" on here can clear up how "off" something would need to be in order to be unavoidably noticable.

I personally would not notice the Sun setting a degree or two off where it should be, or a map being slightly out. If the Sun rose in West for example though it would be global news - the Earth would pretty much have had to start spinning the other way or done a 180 flip on its axis lol.

When measuring the altitude of a celestial body, the sextant will generally work to an accuracy level of 0.1 minutes of arc (equivalent to 0.1 nautical miles). 0.1 minute of arc is measuring a single degree to a 1/600th part.

When using a meridional passage this is a direct one to one relationship. Ie a measurement that is 0.5 minutes of arc out from true would give a position that is 0.5 miles wrong in latitude.

If you move the sun away from the meridian then it is harder to give an easy answer as it varies but the formula used would be:

Tan Azimuth = Sin Local Hour Angle / (Sin Lat x Cos LHA) - (cos Lat x Tan Declination)

Clearly any change in the azimuth of the body would result in an inherently inaccurate computation. Again, for practical relevance and computational ease we typically measure and calculate azimuth to within 0.1 degree.

A major part of a deck officers job is to verify the accuracy of his compasses every 4 hours. Once out of sight of land this can only be done with celestial bodies. Generally this means observing the bearing (azimuth) of the sun around 4 times a day. Calculating where it SHOULD be and comparing that against the observed value. Half a degree is very noticeable. 1 degree would leave me concerned. 2 degrees or more would have me calling a technician to service my gyro compass at the next port.

There are tens of thousands of commercial vessels following this procedure every day.

www.marinetraffic.com...:53/centery:-77/zoom:2

That website will give you a sense of the scale of the industry though bear in mind the technology behind it requires a land based receiver with a limited range. Ships currently in deep sea areas will not be represented.