LIVE: Greeks react to the Parliament’s vote on eurozone agreement

a reply to: ColCurious

My prediction from the beginning of all this was that it would end up in mass rioting within Greece which might further deescalate into martial law!

Im still waiting to be proven wrong. I still maintain that this all started due to the daily Siesta.

originally posted by: imod02 Europe see Greece as fun loving drunks who have #ed there own country up/

i don't. i see people who wanted to say # you to the IMF. and found out you can't, even if you vote so.

edit on R2015th2015-07-15T19:18:23-05:0020150pm1954 by RoScoLaz4 because: (no reason given)

a reply to: RoScoLaz4

messed up my comment. it is, (in reply to imod02)

i don't. i see people who wanted to say # you to the IMF. and found out you can't, even if you vote so.

originally posted by: RoScoLaz4
a reply to: RoScoLaz4

messed up my comment. it is, (in reply to imod02)

i don't. i see people who wanted to say # you to the IMF. and found out you can't, even if you vote so.

The question is why was Greece let join the Euro when every one knew there economy was a mess. Perhaps it was to stop them running to Russia.

I just read this. rt.com...

a reply to: imod02

interesting. from the linked article; " the goal of the German finance minister is to "discipline member states who opposed his very special plan to reform the eurozone by sharpening the social crisis in a controlled way.” "

key word - discipline

a reply to: RoScoLaz4

Its a bit frighting if you think about it, what else are they controlling. Democracy has died long live the EU.

a reply to: imod02

agreed

Greece is just the first one to fall, it won't be the last. They're in a precarious position now where they can if they choose become a beacon of hope for the whole of Europe.

They can reject getting further into debt and restructure their entire nation from the ground up creating a completely new system of governance free from the EU. There hasn't been a developed nation in recent history that is as close to real self determination as them.

Whatever they do it'll be incredibly painful and difficult but I have way more faith in them embracing change than the people of the UK. We'd happily be bent over by the banks again and not give it a second thought.

The world's corrupt central banking system and monetary authority's fate will ultimately be that of frantic drowning man, one who will desperately try to cling to life, even it means selfishly taking all rescuers down with him. It's wise for everyone to keep their distance, and allow this man to simply perish, alone.



“ Cashtration “
Source: www.lewrockwell.com...

“ Unsound Banking: Why Most of the World’s Banks Are Headed for Collapse “
Source: www.lewrockwell.com...

No, democracy has not died.
Greece had a vote to either accept or reject the package which includes a third bailout, so will every other meberstate in the coming days.
Obviously the Greek people and particularly Tsipras en Varoufakis had a rude awakening when they realized that a grexit would be 100 times more worse than the deal they had rejected last june.
This is what was prevented in 2010 through the bailout and it meant Greece had to implement reforms to balance their budget.
Harsh, but that is because the only way to become competitive again is through internal devaluation.
Normally a national currency reflects the value of the economy, if it is strong, the value is higher, in a weak economy the value is lower.
With a lower value, labor is cheaper, it's better for export, investors will have opportunities, and it is a cheap destination for vacation.
Greece should never have joined the eurozone but to my knowledge France and Italy insisted they did and Greece wanted it to.
Since Greece has joined the eurozone, they gave up their own currency and thus has a shared responsibility, budget discipline as agreed in the Maastricht treaty, keep the deficit below 3 percent and keep or lower debt to gdp to 60 percent.
They clearly did not do so, in fact they gave false numbers to hide the debt and the deficit which was above 15 percent.

It is not only financial, also the government administration was a complete mess.

Despite the harsh austerity since 2010 Greece had reduced it's deficit to or slightly below 3 percent and the economy was growing again.
But all the progress has been wiped out because of the strikes last November and Syriza who lifted implemented reforms and threatened with a grexit.
People therefore took their money from their accounts which meant that the ECB had to provide liquidity assistance to prevent the banks from collapsing.
But that is given against collateral, the limit was almost reached in June and with the uncertainty of a grexit when Tsipras walked away and called for a referendum the ECB had no other choice but to stop raising the ceiling of ELA to the Greek banks so had to close and impose capital controls.

Mind you that the 90 billion that went to greek banks through ELA is the loss of european taxpayers if Greece opted for a grexit.

This is where the anger of the rest of Europe comes from, irrisponsible behaviour from a freshly chosen government which have destroyed Greece even more than it was 5 years ago.
Slowly the answers are coming of what went on in the last six month's, also how the Greek people were deluded through a phony referendum which would give Greece a better position to negotiate and a better deal according to Tsipras and Varoufakis.
Moreover, in a interview Varoufakis outright lied negotiations and a better deal that was made two days before the referendum.
Tsipras anounced the referendum three days before the current programme ended, so when the Greek people voted, they voted for nothing.

And now the people bleed for it, if Greece had smart and responsible politicians, they would have a growing economy and probably a surplus on their budget, no need for a third bailout and trust of the market so they could enter the capital market again to raise capital if needed.

Luckely the governments of Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Italy are smart and responsible.

We would have liked to see Greece leave the eurozone but France and Italy and also the US did not want that.
But i think for Greece especially for the people of Greece is would have been better accompanied with much needed aid from the EU for the people of Greece.

Greece is a perfect example of why we need a cashless society. It's a culture of corruption where no one from the poorest individual to the richest corporation is actually paying their taxes. It's pretty common in Greece to only report 1/10 of your income and everyone has simply accepted that as the way to do business. The citizens are just as complicit in not being responsible as the government is. If all or most transactions were electronic, taxes would be taken and their government could actually generate some revenue.

a reply to: combatmaster

After this is all said and done.......Nationalism will rise again in Europe and rule the day. Many Euro countries are ripe for the picking because of progressive ideals brought about by decades of brainwashing from the masters. They gave up firearm and privacy rights willingly and depend on the government for basic living......This is the perfect recipe for nationalism and outright control for TPTB.

originally posted by: imod02
I think most of Europe is asking why they should be paying the Greek peoples taxes. Europe see Greece as fun loving drunks who have #ed there own country up and now want every one else to give them more money so they can keep the party going

I suppose for the same reason People should be asking why Illegal aliens are being allowed into the USA so that tax payers can pay their way for the rest of time. Same problems different country.

originally posted by: khnum
So 224 out of 300 vote to accept the austerity package the people rejected Democracy dies in the country it was invented

It's worse than that. This package is far harsher than the one they had a referendum on.

That said, they brought it on themselves. Retire at 45? Not pay your taxes? Create non jobs and give them to family? Yeah, it's all the evil bankers fault, nit the Greeks for running the country into the ground. They knew they had problems in 2001 but did nothing about it.

a reply to: stumason

By the same token if I was a bank officer would I continuously increase the credit limit of a bipolar person that continuosly clocks their credit card then doesn't pay it off....not unless I was unscrupulous and knew eventually I could confiscate assets to pay the bill.

Im pretty sure the bank president here is a Mr Louis Cypher and his loans officer Frau Merkel did a wondrous job protecting his bank in prior Greek dramas and positioning it to make the ultimate killing in the end.This is just a BIG hedge fund scam.

originally posted by: imod02

originally posted by: RoScoLaz4
a reply to: RoScoLaz4

messed up my comment. it is, (in reply to imod02)

i don't. i see people who wanted to say # you to the IMF. and found out you can't, even if you vote so.

The question is why was Greece let join the Euro when every one knew there economy was a mess. Perhaps it was to stop them running to Russia.

What were the alternatives? It was either chaos, or print Drachmas and have them installed in the A.T.M',s. He didn't have time to get the Drachmas ready. He was blackmailed, with what was essentially a gun to his head. As long as their was no cash ready for the changeover he will always be at a disadvantage.

a reply to: earthling42
Not really sure where to start here. You state that the Greek economy was recovering however its quarterly GDP figures have been in continual decline since 2008 and unemployment is in excess of 20% (much higher for under 25's). Continued austerity is only going to make things worse. Even the IMF acknowledge this.
Where the current Greek government went wrong is their believe that the EU wouldn't write off an entire member state to make a politics point. If democracy has died it is not just in Greece but the whole EU.

originally posted by: Rocker2013

originally posted by: Sharted
Am I the only one who doesn't give a # about Greece and if they're in Europe? Sick of hearing about it in the news.

Maybe that's just because you don't understand the importance of the issue or the consequences this will have on other countries?

And don't think the US or UK are immune from those consequences either. If Greece leaves the Euro it could cause a major problem in the markets, and cause other European nations to start to distance themselves from the Union.

Lets also not forget the meeting the Greek PM had with Putin less than a month ago. If Greece finds itself in dire need of financial help and Russia is the only one willing to lend to it, there will be a trade-off, and that will impact all of Europe, and the US, along with NATO.

I don't think it will affect Europe at all, Greece only make up 3% of the European economy, unlike other countries in Europe who contruibute to Europe as a whole, Greece give nothig at all, they just take take take and give nothing back.

Sure some makets will fall slightly then rebound quite quickly.

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster.



Anyways, after reading some of the comments here I've decided to make an account and give my opinion and ask a few questions.

Ok, Greece is plucked. We know she is in debt, we know she can't pay back her debt, we know she is being forced ride the big, white, ferocious bull until she falls and dies or tames it - she will not wear out this angry and twisted animal.

I've decided to post because I've read things like, Greeks;

Retire at 45
Don't pay taxes
Are corrupt
Don't work
Take several pensions
Have caused this alone
Cooked their books
Aren't fiscally disciplined
Don't deserve to be in the euro
Are lazy
Work few hours


Most of that is complete and utter crap, if not all.

More discussion should Focus on why the European Union allowed Greece to enter the union when they know full well their economy wasn't progressive enough or had the mechanism to cope with industries being lost due to regulations of joining the union.

Why would they accept Greece when they know they would only get in with help from their friends at Goldman Sachs?

Why would they allow Greece to join the European Union when it would cause Greece to lose its drachma and therefore competiveness?? Many former Greek staples of income have now been relocated to turkey, which with its lira, is highly competitive.


Why would the eu not seek guarantee prior to entry that Greece has replaced former revenue streams, has an effective tax system, has removed beuracracy, has the right mechanisms in place to function as modern European state, has the ability to do whatever now is apparent wasn't in place???


Why does Europe not help Greece with is border problems? The huge financial burden the tens of thousands of refugees and illegal workers that have been crossing into Greece forever. These same immigrants who have made billions and sent it back to their native lands.

Why hasn't Europe stopped the Turks from constant military threats in the agean where Greece has vast amounts of oil in its own eez but turkey seems to think belongs to it?

Why isn't mentioned the many politicians in Greece as in much of the eu are from ecb or Goldman Sachs employees? Why hasn't the been an investigation into the 700,000million George papandreou or other politicians own?

I could go on for days. Yes, greece put herself in this mess but she was taken for a ride on a big white bull. She has been helped to destroy herself but where the eu could of helped the were lacking. Imaginary money transferred from one bank to another. I would how much of this 300 billion has been spent on updating greek infrastructure to provide it the base to manufacture, make pharmaceuticals, exploit minerals/resources, take advantage of its few exceptional areas of expertise in some technological fields, to help the country become fully self sufficient. I'd say jack #.

Austerity works for Germany. They make and own the patents for virtually ever quality product in the world which consumers buy.

Greece make the best olive oil in the planet bar none yet doesn't bottle its own olive oil.

If Greece leaves let them deal with the immigrants and the Turks. Last time there was a world war Greece suffered, As a percentage, one of the highest losses of population in Europe. This is the thanks she gets.