If a woman lies about being on the pill, is it rape by deception?

originally posted by: jimmyx
if a man questions whether he is committing rape, he shouldn't be having sex with that woman in the first place. the pill has nothing to do with it.

You might want to go back and read the original post.

I mean, as a general principle, it's hard to argue, but it's not what this thread is about.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: EvillerBob

I made reasonable efforts to check and received lies in return. I struggle to see how such a course of action could be lawful?

I'm not arguing that it is. Not exactly. I'm just exploring alternate approaches because I find it a fascinating mental exercise.

a reply to: EvillerBob

I'm loving the cross examination! Loads better than the witch hunt earlier lol.
So do you think my legal case is lacking?


My consent was granted because I believed a lie. How would you counter that assertion in court?

originally posted by: grainofsand
Wiki - Rape by deception

Rape by deception is a crime in which the perpetrator has the victim's sexual consent and compliance, but gains it through deception or fraudulent statements or actions.

Rape by fraud? N.J. lawmaker introduces bill to make it a crime

This happened to me many years ago, so it is a serious question, although some may not like it.
Boy meets girl, girl and boy are close to having sex, boy says "I don't have any condoms" girl replies "It's cool, I'm on the pill", but that was a total lie.

I would not have consented to sex if I knew there was zero protection from pregnancy.
I did not want another child so my consent for sex would only be if using barrier protection and/or the girl was using contraceptive drugs such as the pill or implants.
Key point, MY CONSENT to sex depended solely on the use of contraception to reduce the risk of a child being conceived.
She lied, and it turned out she was already pregnant from last weekend's guy, but after more lies she moved in with me and I raised the child as my own for 7 years, even after the DNA test when he was born showed he was not mine.

Now I'm not bitching about any of it, life is life, and we make our own mistakes, so please take away any comments like "It takes two to tango" or "You shouldn't have had sex with someone you don't know" or whatever. All that is irrelevant to the OP.

This thread is solely about rape by deception, and I'm interested in thoughts about that, not moral hand wringing about casual sex. The girl admitted to me that she straight out lied that night so rest assured there is no confusion in my story.
I would not have had sex with the girl that night if she had said it would involve zero contraception. No arguments, no misunderstandings, if she had said to me that night in her bed that she was not on the pill (when I asked her) we would not have had sex.
I did not want another child, and I thank science for DNA tests because she probably would have lied that the child was mine.

So ATS, was I a victim of rape by deception?
I would not have consented if she had told me the truth.

my 2 cents is youve not been raped......just swindled out of a a teaspoon-ish ammount of nut nectar by deception.Morally wronged,utterly disrespected,hugely lied to & treated disgracefully but not raped........unless you knew not 1 thing of female bits & parts & she told ya to lay back whilst she gave ya a reverse footjob....leavin ya to discover years later that you had actually been unwittingly bonking away !! Dick still dove in & wasn't dragged in kickin & screamin

a reply to: fotsyfots

Interesting answer, would your opinion be the same if I was female and the person in the OP had been male?
Just curious.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: EvillerBob

I'm loving the cross examination! Loads better than the witch hunt earlier lol.
So do you think my legal case is lacking?

My consent was granted because I believed a lie. How would you counter that assertion in court?

Actually the simplest starting point it putting you to proof, but that all depends on exactly what she has said to me. Despite what people may think, if a defendant says (even in confidence) that they did something, I wouldn't be allowed to offer a defence that suggests otherwise. I'm not allowed to deliberately lie or mislead the court.

Bearing in mind I'm doing this off the top of my head and without checking all the relevant legislation or caselaw...

The avenues I would likely explore would be (i) she did not believe that to form a condition (the basis of a defence, ie arguing that the offence wasn't committed) and/or (ii) in any event, impossibility (damage limitation, angling for an inchoate offence as an alternative verdict in the hope of chipping away at the sentence).

originally posted by: jimmyx
if a man questions whether he is committing rape, he shouldn't be having sex with that woman in the first place. the pill has nothing to do with it.

Geesh...I fully agree there bro.? Hey op....did she write the answer down for you ? I've got a mental picture the poor lasses mouth was wired up for some niggling reason....was that mentioned or what????

a reply to: fotsyfots

Yet another fly by night poster with an attitude but no real understanding of the question in hand.

This is really getting quite silly again now.

a reply to: fotsyfots

Have you nothing more interesting to do than troll this thread?

a reply to: EvillerBob
The defendant knew that the prospective sexual partner did not in any circumstance wish to partake in unprotected sex.
That should be enough surely?
I'm going bed though, been a long day, and it'll prob take an hour or so dealing with the US timezone which focuses on tghis thread later lol.

originally posted by: EvillerBob
The avenues I would likely explore would be (i) she did not believe that to form a condition (the basis of a defence, ie arguing that the offence wasn't committed) and/or (ii) in any event, impossibility (damage limitation, angling for an inchoate offence as an alternative verdict in the hope of chipping away at the sentence).

Definitely tomorrow but prob late evening UK time, as busy, but I'm enjoying the mature debate, nice one, and nice one everyone who can stay on topic, appreciated.
You are all stars

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: EvillerBob
The defendant knew that the prospective sexual partner did not in any circumstance wish to partake in unprotected sex.
That should be enough surely?
I'm going bed though, been a long day, and it'll prob take an hour or so dealing with the US timezone which focuses on tghis thread later lol.

I think there are two scenarios here. The first is the pure legal analysis (where everything is accepted as fact and the analysis is based on that) and the actual analysis (where you're trying to meet the burden of proof, with all the problems that brings with it).

From a pure legal analysis, your statement would be... well, to be pedantic, it would be halfway there, but I'll assume you added something along the lines of "...but deliberately and knowingly mislead the partner by lying about their use of contraception in order to gain the partner's consent". So, yes, it would be enough.

From a practical analysis, it's a classic he-said/she-said situation, with you needing to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it all occurred exactly as you said.

Actually, go back to the very first version of the statement that you made.

'Boy meets girl, girl and boy are close to having sex, boy says "I don't have any condoms" girl replies "It's cool, I'm on the pill"'

It wouldn't take much to present a reasonable explanation to this. Let's have a quick go.

You let her know you didn't have any condoms. She thought you were asking if she minded having unprotected sex. She believed that you were asking her to give consent - which she did. Look at the wording used - "it's cool". Not "oh, do you still want to do it?". "It's cool". That's what someone says when they are telling you that they don't mind.

Did she lie about being on the pill? Yes. So what. Based on your own evidence, her words clearly suggest that she believed she was giving consent; there is nothing in that evidence to suggest she had any reason to believe you were making it a condition. If she believed you were asking permission to have unprotected sex, then she would have no reason to believe that lie would be required to make you give consent. Perhaps she didn't want you to feel guilty.

My official legal advice to everyone is this: only ever have threesomes, and always make sure that somebody is recording it. It's the only way to be sure. If you're worried about losing the evidence, there are a number of free internet repositories where you can upload and store the video and make it available for viewing at anytime.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: EvillerBob
The defendant knew that the prospective sexual partner did not in any circumstance wish to partake in unprotected sex.
That should be enough surely?

Unprotected? That says it right there. Everyone is focused on this 'pregnancy' factor due to the OPs personal story. The fact of the matter is that without knowing another's complete medical /sexual history, you are always making a decision based on inaccurate information. Sexual diseases of all forms are transmittable and your partner may not even know they have anything.

I am not some ultra conservative lady nor a slut, but in my dating days if a man was seriously interested in having sex with me without a condom, I certainly did not let him know that I had one in my purse. He may just have been stupid, but stupid people do stupid things and I was not about to allow myself to be stupid too. I am not pure, just learned early on in my teens that STDs were serious. Yes, boyfriend had sex with one of his exes then passed something on to me!

More recently, my current husband and I rubbed ourselves raw through our clothing since we did not have protection. TMI....but it boils down to personal responsibility. I disagree that this is a criminal case. Civil court certainly. Rape is a violent crime OR committed by someone through consent by Coercive authority!! Your example and even others regarding deception, male or female, should not be considered criminal but unjust. Unjust deception are civil court matters not criminal. There is no reason our society should tie up the criminal justice system due to civil matters that may not have occurred with due diligence by the victim. We do not live in an utopia nor paradise. Fraud and deception occur.

In this date and time of our civilization, if you are medically mentally alert, You are aware of the fact that trusting 100% everything anyone tells you, you will soon be a victim of fraud. File charges in civil court if needed, but don't try and say that you were raped!

a reply to: EvillerBob

Excellent legal response

...she knows she lied to me though, regardless of the law, but thanks for your contributions here...she knows full well lol, I'll get back to you tomorrow lol x

a reply to: CynConcepts

You seem to have jumped on the band wagon and offered your own moral stance on sexual intercourse as opposed to the question that was actually raised in the OP.

Well done for you and your partners choices but the OP was not about STD's personal preference or anything such.

Sex gained by deception. Simple as that.

Anything else is not as per this topic regardless of yours or anyones opinion on sexual relationships.

Consent gained via deception.

Discuss.

a reply to: nonspecific
I stated what I thought about sex gained by deception. I said it may be unjust and civilly dishonorable, but it is not considered rape unless coerced by violence or an authoritative figure!

With the examples given, I could cry rape by my teenage ex-boyfriend, since he assured me I was his one and only. He lied and had sex with his ex thus I contracted a sexual disease from him! That would be rediculous! I would imagine any other person who has been raped, does not ask if it's rape...they know it was!

a reply to: CynConcepts

You have the right to an opinion but given the full context of the posts in this thread I would disagree.

It is all personal opinion.

See the earlier posts were we discussed an alternative terminology.

Also many times in this post it has been said that this is a discussion about the concept of the OP as opposed to the story or personal experience.

a reply to: grainofsand

Its an interesting thread. Considering that a survey in Britain found that the male parent, in a significant percentage was not the biological parent . I think it was as high as 20%. I'm sure when a female gets pregnant., nature has a far more important role in deciding the best mix of genes. Females have a greater investment in the offspring, but the modern society has made it a necessary deception.

Should it matter, that a male is paying out for offspring that they are not related to? should a woman be allowed to choose the best mate on an instinctual level, as this decision would be the best outcome for the society as a whole, with the hardiest stock, which may or may not be , the long term mate who could be a better provider, which is very important for the raising of the child.

At some level , the female might not have that amount of control over this type of situation as is generally believed.

a reply to: nonspecific
Everyone will respond from their own personal perspective, that is the only way 'personal' opinions are formed. Using alternative terminology does not change what is being discussed. The OP put forth a concept and I stated why such a concept as his and others were not a criminal case.

Was there any violence? Was the sexual partner in a position of authority? Did you think if you did not do this act that something bad would happen to you or others? Where is the criminal manipulation in this? Please explain.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: nonspecific

She knowingly lied so I would consent to sex, that's for sure, she admitted it lol

I get what you are saying and I can see it being rape. Stating a YES to get you to consent seems about as bad to me as NO means NO. In one case there is an aggressor who will take whatever they want regardless of whether one party said no and the there is your situation where she may not have been aggressive but certainly deceitful in getting what she wanted. She got you to let your guard down by confirming that she was indeed on some sort of birth control and you went ahead and she could've gotten pregnant except that she already was. Had you gotten her pregnant, you seem like you were ready to accept the consequences and that is how people who consent to sex should act should birth control not work.
I can see this being rape as she used her lie to get you to do something that you would have sworn off.

My question to you is did she stalk you, perhaps knowing that you were a kind soul and perhaps a much better catch to present to her family/friends than "the other guy" or did the other guy just happen to be a one-night stand or something and she couldn't face the pregnancy alone? I wondered because you stated that it was only a week prior that she had gotten pregnant and my wife couldn't figure it out for a few weeks when we had our first.

Anyhow, I would seriously put this in the Rape crimes if you had actually wanted to pursue charges. I do hope that your relationship with her and the child you are raising as your own continue to grow. Good luck!