Two Questions for Transgender people

a reply to: JadeStar

Um HELLO.....

Hi!

If a guy goes, flirts with, an picks up and takes home an attractive woman like me who was born differently and she has sex with him and he later finds out that she was born differently and commits suicide then THATS THE EVIL TRANSGENDER WOMAN'S FAULT.

Yes, because she failed to mention something that she's very aware may be problematic to her potential partner, and is also aware that in today's society there are A LOT of people that wouldn't even think to ask. If you are passable and say nothing, you are lying by omission. You know the guy probably thinks you were born cis, and that he may have a problem if he knew you weren't.

You keep saying "a girl born differently". The point that I'm trying to make to you is that you are a woman (now) that was born differently. You're saying the same thing I am, you;re just incapable of admitting that you are not the same (which is WHY you keep saying different) and that some people (both male and female) would have a problem with that. You recognize that society isn't very aware of trans* issues, but you blame individuals for ignorance.

informing him that I had a corrective medical procedure to bring my body in line with my brain he can let loose on me, mentally abuse me and send me on my way to hang myself. AND THAT IS THE EVIL TRANSGENDER WOMAN'S FAULT FOR BEING BORN

Not at all. It's the fault of all the people that insist a transwoman is exactly the same as a woman, when that is absurd. By your own admission you're not. You've said you were born a girl differently a ton. You KNOW it's not the same. But you also are propping up the false belief that unless everyone else deludes themselves with the same thinking they will never live a happy life, because they will never be a normal woman. They never will be a normal woman, they should learn that's OK, and to accept that FACT.

She killed herself because she had mental problems, not because a guy was mean to her. Was that maybe a trigger? Of course. Was that one rude act the reason she had such conflicting thoughts and despair? Of course not. She should have been taught that it's OK to be different, not that everyone should just automatically agree or else life wasn't worth living.

The guy was an asshole, people can be assholes. I'm sure somewhere there are people that would denigrate a woman for not being a virgin. Let's expand on that. Now lets say there is a group of non virgins that have had their vaginas rebuilt. It's a new vagina, so they act like they're a virgin. It doesn't change anything. A transwoman's vagina is not a f

What you have completely failed to get, is that there are a TON of people that wouldn't want to sleep with a transgender, and that should be their right. It doesn't matter if they can't tell, if you don't inform them it is lying by omission because YOU are aware there are a lot of people like this that don't know to ask.

Feminists (some) groups are uncomfortable with trans* people, same with (some) lesbian groups. You don't have the same frame of reference. If you're aware of the change, you've lived your life differently. If you had to have surgery, that makes you different. If you have to take hormones, that makes you different. You are a woman, but you ARE different. If there is a test that will identify you, you are indeed different. You want to be the exact same, but it's just not the same.

These things about you that are different are not bad, at least in my opinion. I don't have a problem with gay people, I'm just not gay. I don't have a problem with trans* people, I'm just not into trans* people.

Let's talk about something YOU said. You said you would be uncomfortable in a changing room with someone that was trans* but pre-op. You're full of hypocrisy. You ave basically taken the position that everyone is wrong, except people that agree and look/feel exactly like you. People like you are setting everyone back. You don't respect the feelings of anyone but yourself, and I think it's shameful. So you can cringe away from a penis, but I'm not allowed to say that I don't want to have sexual intercourse with a vagina that was crafted from male sex organs? BS.

You've both just convinced me if I ever date again, never to tell.

OK. Just know that if you sleep with a heterosexual man without telling him you are lying by omission, and doing far more damage to people in your position, while also completely discounting another human being's feelings.

I'm going to go ahead and keep on trusting that people are actually considerate, compassionate and capable of empathy. You are a TERRIBLE representative of the trans* community. You've alienated people going through the same struggle, alienated allies, and alienated any reasonable person. You've just given all the people that actually ARE transphobic a ton of ammunition.

Afterall, the moment i tell. I'm different.

You were BORN different, in a number of ways, and you keep saying you were born a girl differently.

Why ruin it?

Well I suppose you wouldn't want to if you completely lack a moral compass.

First star from me sir.

a reply to: Domo1

An open Question to anyone: Would you ask every sexual partner if they are Cisgender or Transgender before or after?

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: JadeStar

What is so ridiculous about the following statement?

Having sex with someone knowing that you are not revealing something that could adversely effect the other person is wrong, period.

I just answered that. See the long post above.

Now how about you answer these questions which you've been silent on:


So would it be ok to have sex with the same person, if for example my parents had me fixed when I was 2 years old and they did not tell me so i'd have nothing to disclose?

Or what if somehow I had amnesia?

Then would you allow me to have a normal sex life?

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: JadeStar
She killed herself because she had mental problems, not because a guy was mean to her. Was that maybe a trigger? Of course. Was that one rude act the reason she had such conflicting thoughts and despair? Of course not. She should have been taught that it's OK to be different, not that everyone should just automatically agree or else life wasn't worth living.

So were back to the "transgender people have mental issues" debate.. Her "mental issue" according to you is that she believed the was a woman and you do not. Wonderful...

She had no mental problems up until the point at which she disclosed and was mentally abused.

She was happy look at her picture taken just two weeks before it happened. She had the world open for her and was very positive about her future according to all her friends and family.

So don't lay this on "oh she was a depressed transgender woman and those people kill themselves all the time".

THAT DOES NOT APPLY HERE

You coldly dismissed her death. You are the problem. Not her. Not me. Period.

You can justify it all you want but her killing herself for how she was treated is no different from your hypothetical guy killing himself because he just couldn't accept that he slept with a woman who was born differently.

THE WOMAN BORN DIFFERENTLY IS STILL A WOMAN. END OF STORY.

To argue anything less is to justify people who use a "trans panic" defence when they murder us.

The murderer is the one with the mental issues not the woman he murdered.

PS: I am most certainly *not* a representative of the transgender community because I don't consider myself transgender. At this stage in my life virtually anyone one knows i had corrective surgery or was born any different. My transition is behind me. And I am happy with normalcy.

AND GUESS WHAT? That's the whole point of going through this. Seriously. It's NOT to be perpetually "less than" or "not quite" "other". So please stop being an ass and take your anti-trans "but, but you're STILL different" bigotry elsewhere.

I almost regret even coming out on ATS.

We have nothing left to discuss. I do not need to debate my femininity with you. It's not up for debate. And given what we know scientifically it should never have been up for debate.

I'm sorry but I'm done with you.

a reply to: Darth_Prime

Back in the day, no. I thought it was a given that you would be informed if you were hooking up with someone that presented as cis and wasn't.

Now? I'm not sure honestly. Despite someone claiming that some absurd number like 1 in 10 people are transgender (I think they were confused by decimals), I don't think it's that common, even less common to be passable, and I think most transgendered folks are awesome people with the decency to inform potential partners that they know are likely to assume someone presenting as cis is in fact cis that they aren't. That last part we agree on, this is a small worry in the grand scheme of things, but that doesn't change it's impact. Apparently that was a naive way of thinking.

My honest answer is now I don't know. I'll say it again loud and clear, I don't think it makes you gay to have sex with a transgendered person, I don't think that should matter anyway. I'm not scared of catching the gay, I don't think it's morally wrong to be gay, I don't think it's morally wrong to be transgendered. I don't think that a transgendered person is in anyway less of a person, only that they are slightly different than normal. I personally don't want to engage in sexual intercourse with a transgendered person, and I feel that should be my right. I believe that a person who is transgender should disclose that fact before sexual intimacy is initiated.

There are a TON of people that are not aware. Transgendered individuals are very much aware that some percent of people would have an issue. They are aware that many wouldn't think to ask. They are aware that they are transgendered. Therefore, I believe they should divulge that information before anything sexual happens.

Jade calm down here for a second please, I don't think he meant the mental issues comment as a blanket policy towards Trans folks. I think he meant more like the individual had mental problems and I agree you have to be pretty messed up to actually go through with that. Im not even saying that the mental problems were her fault but problems are still problems. Also nobody is giving the savage that treated her that way a free pass, yes he is a monster. However we may feel about that he is also protected by his right to free speech. In the eyes of the law thats not illegal its not like he beat her death, he just said mean things. People don't deserve to be locked up for being mean.

a reply to: JadeStar

originally posted by: Darth_Prime
An open Question to anyone: Would you ask every sexual partner if they are Cisgender or Transgender before or after?

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: Darth_Prime
I personally don't want to engage in sexual intercourse with a transgendered person, and I feel that should be my right. I believe that a person who is transgender should disclose that fact before sexual intimacy is initiated.

If my boyfriend and I broke up, I personally at this point in my life, given what i've had to go through, would not want to engage in sexual intercourse with someone who thought I was abnormal and I feel that should be my right. I believe that unless a long term relationship is developing then the fact that I had corrective surgery is of no consequence.

My preference is just as valid.

a reply to: Domo1

No one can force you to have sex with a trans Woman or Man, if we are going by the strict definition of 'Transphobia' than no i wouldn't call you that, if what you say is true... i think what everyone is questioning is 'why' you are certain you would never have sex with a Transgender Woman even if they told you before.

that stance of 'Never' without question is saying you would never be attracted to the 'thought' of a Transgender Woman which is a Woman anyway

it's like saying "I'll never have sex with someone that is black"

originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: Domo1

No one can force you to have sex with a trans Woman or Man, if we are going by the strict definition of 'Transphobia' than no i wouldn't call you that, if what you say is true... i think what everyone is questioning is 'why' you are certain you would never have sex with a Transgender Woman even if they told you before.

that stance of 'Never' without question is saying you would never be attracted to the 'thought' of a Transgender Woman which is a Woman anyway

it's like saying "I'll never have sex with someone that is black"

And at one time THAT was a big deal.... No one commented on that post earlier in this thread about that madness and the parallels to this discussion.

a reply to: JadeStar

I'm starting to suspect that transphobia isn't the only problem with some of these posters, Jade. The downright dismissive attitude toward women, regardless of our origins, seems to hint at another particular bigotry present.

The male chauvinism reeks around them.

a reply to: JadeStar

So were back to the "transgender people have mental issues" debate.. Her "mental issue" according to you is that she believed the was was a woman and you do not. Wonderful...

Nope, that's not what I said. You can keep trying, but I'm not taking the bait. Her mental issue was an inability to recognize that she is in fact different, and that she could still love who she is. Sane people don't kill themselves.

She had no mental problems up until the point at which she disclosed and was mentally abused.

I wasn't aware that you were her psychiatrist.

She was happy look at her picture taken just two weeks before it happened. She had the world open for her and was very positive about her future according to all her friends and family.

K, that doesn't make her mentally stable. I've known a few people that were very positive and unstable.

So don't lay this on "oh she was a depressed transgender woman and those people kill themselves all the time".

I never said this was a transgender issue, I said it was a mental issue. People who kill themselves are not known for mental stability.

You coldly dismissed her death. You are the problem. Not her. Not me. Period.

I didn't dismiss her death coldly. I think it's incredibly tragic, and you don't know me or my reaction. People that insist a transgender person is the exact same as a cis person, and belittle those that don't follow the same cultish dogma are to blame for her death. She wasn't OK being herself, because there are people (and it seems you fit into this category) that are unable to say that there is more than one type of woman. Well, no, you DO say that when it's convenient. I was born a girl differently. But now it's not OK to say that you are a woman, but different. Do you completely dismiss genderfluid people too?

I'm not the problem. I think everyone is equal, regardless of sexual orientation, or how many vaginas and penises they have. I simply think that you can classify different groups, and you are not the exact same thing as a cis woman if you're not a cis woman. A transgendered person is by definition NOT the same medically.

My only point here is that you should recognize that some people are uncomfortable with the FACT that you are not EXACTLY the same as a woman (again, you've agreed with this girl born differently) and that people have a right to say they don't want to have sex with you, because they have a preference for a woman with no strings or backstory attached.

THE WOMAN BORN DIFFERENTLY IS STILL A WOMAN. END OF STORY.

Yeah, but born differently. Meaning not the same. So our little story continues.

You can justify it all you want but her killing herself for how she was treated is no different from your hypothetical guy killing himself because he just couldn't accept that he slept with a woman who was born differently.

Oh but it is very different. In our little hypothetical scenario the guy was lied to (it doesn't matter if it was overt, and we can change lie to deceived), didn't think he had to ask, and the transgender person is culpable. The guy didn't know to ask, but the transgender knows that many don't realize they need to ask, and that many would be incredibly uncomfortable.

To argue anything less is to justify people who use a "trans panic" defence when they murder us.

No it's not. That's a ridiculous and illegal reaction. Trans* people have gotten the short end of the stick for a LONG time, but that doesn't mean they get to turn around and seek retribution from people that had nothing to do with it.

You are just trying to appeal to weak minded people's emotions trotting out examples of trans* people that have been murdered. No rational person agrees with murder. It's not going to work with me, you're trying to put me on the defensive, but we agree, trans* people don't deserve their statistics. You've tried baiting me, you've tried insulting me, and you've tried a few times now to ignore me. I'm really wondering if a certain brand new account from Serbia isn't you or someone you know.

The murderer is the one with the mental issues not the woman he murdered.

Well in this case we're talking about suicide, so yeah, I think the murderer had some mental issues.

PS: I am most certainly *not* a representative of the transgender community because I don't consider myself transgender

Well, you are transgender. You don't get to change the meaning of words to fit your creepy narrative.

because I don't consider myself transgender and virtually no one knows i had corrective surgery or was born any different.

You keep saying you're not different, but you keep saying you were born different. You ARE different, and that's OK!

AND GUESS WHAT? That's the whole point of going through this. So please stop being an ass.

I'm not being an ass, I'm telling you my feelings. You may not like them, but that doesn't change them. It's hard to have any semblance of a conversation with someone that gets super pouty and runs away every time another disagrees with their point of view.

I'm sorry but I'm done with you.

I'm sorry too. I thought we were having a grown up conversation. Sometimes those can challenge long held beliefs. It's hard to look at yourself and realize you might be wrong, or that another person may disagree and that their opinion is also valid. You're different, I hope some day you learn to embrace that. We all have our little abnormal things.

Our disagreements aside, I truly wish you the best.

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: JadeStar

Um HELLO.....

Hi!

If a guy goes, flirts with, an picks up and takes home an attractive woman like me who was born differently and she has sex with him and he later finds out that she was born differently and commits suicide then THATS THE EVIL TRANSGENDER WOMAN'S FAULT.

Yes, because she failed to mention something that she's very aware may be problematic to her potential partner, and is also aware that in today's society there are A LOT of people that wouldn't even think to ask. If you are passable and say nothing, you are lying by omission. You know the guy probably thinks you were born cis, and that he may have a problem if he knew you weren't.

You keep saying "a girl born differently". The point that I'm trying to make to you is that you are a woman (now) that was born differently. You're saying the same thing I am, you;re just incapable of admitting that you are not the same (which is WHY you keep saying different) and that some people (both male and female) would have a problem with that. You recognize that society isn't very aware of trans* issues, but you blame individuals for ignorance.

informing him that I had a corrective medical procedure to bring my body in line with my brain he can let loose on me, mentally abuse me and send me on my way to hang myself. AND THAT IS THE EVIL TRANSGENDER WOMAN'S FAULT FOR BEING BORN

Not at all. It's the fault of all the people that insist a transwoman is exactly the same as a woman, when that is absurd. By your own admission you're not. You've said you were born a girl differently a ton. You KNOW it's not the same. But you also are propping up the false belief that unless everyone else deludes themselves with the same thinking they will never live a happy life, because they will never be a normal woman. They never will be a normal woman, they should learn that's OK, and to accept that FACT.

She killed herself because she had mental problems, not because a guy was mean to her. Was that maybe a trigger? Of course. Was that one rude act the reason she had such conflicting thoughts and despair? Of course not. She should have been taught that it's OK to be different, not that everyone should just automatically agree or else life wasn't worth living.

The guy was an asshole, people can be assholes. I'm sure somewhere there are people that would denigrate a woman for not being a virgin. Let's expand on that. Now lets say there is a group of non virgins that have had their vaginas rebuilt. It's a new vagina, so they act like they're a virgin. It doesn't change anything. A transwoman's vagina is not a f

What you have completely failed to get, is that there are a TON of people that wouldn't want to sleep with a transgender, and that should be their right. It doesn't matter if they can't tell, if you don't inform them it is lying by omission because YOU are aware there are a lot of people like this that don't know to ask.

My mother once told me that there were women in my family on my mother's side who during segregation passed as white. No one ever asked if they were.

And if they had been asked they probably would have said they were not. However they worked jobs which were only reserved at that time for white women. Had their mixed ethnicity been known they would have been fired.

Some of them had partners who were white and didn't know.

Had they been outed or had they outed themselves as being of mixed african-european ethnicity they would have been seen as deceptive, liars, morally degenerate and their actions reprehensible and deceptive. And the people who would have cast this judgement would have been seen as honorable and honest, righteous and good.

"I mean why did they lie about THEIR RACE? Why wouldn't they have said they were NEGROS. They have NEGRO blood right? So what if no one asked them! Lying by OMISSION is still LYING!"

Those would have been the cries of the day from those whose minds could not fathom that the women who passed as white were as much white as they were anything else in their genome.

Those women might have even have been the targets of physical violence by groups of like minded folks like the KKK.

Why? Because people who were not white and specifically people with african ethnicity were seen as "less than" or subhuman. And "no white man would want to be 'fooled' into bedding down with a 'high yella' (insert n-word)"

Some people considered "race mixing" evil.

Interracial people born of such unions were considered "un-natural" or even "an abomination in the eyes of God". Sound familiar?

Today we accept that all people regardless of skin color and ethnicity should be viewed as equals. We know that all of us are a mixture of ethnicities genetically so we carry a little of a lot of people who on the surface look differently than us around with us.

Similarly we know that all men and women started out as female before they were born and that the process to masculinize the brain and body of an embryo is not always 100 percent which can lead to things like people born transgender or intersex.

We've known since around 2005 that transgender brains scans match the gender they present. A transgender woman is not LYING by saying she is a woman. A transgender man is not LYING by saying he is a man.

The lie would be YOU saying they are NOT what they say they are. As you have done

So, someday. Hopefully not long from now, people will understand that ALL women, regardless of whether they were born with XX or XXY or XY chromosomes are women.

When that day comes the only people who will have these hang ups about women like me will be like those few people who still care and absolutely need to know "what race someone is" before climbing into bed.

Being singled out as an already small demographic within a small demographic for "hiding" something that really should be of no more consequence than having other corrective surgery such as that to fix cleft palate is discriminatory because it places a higher value on the guy's feelings which are based on ignorance of the day rath than on the woman's feelings which are based on scientific facts (such as the transgender woman's brain being identical to that of women born normally).

My personal policy has always been to disclose my backstory fairly early. However in a less ignorant, more enlightened world, my backstory would have no more consequence than if a woman had breast augmentation or dyed her hair.

i long for the day when it none of this matters.But those of you who are arguing that it always should matter are like those segregationists who could not understand interracial people and demonized those who passed as white in what was then a world which was extremely hostile to those who were not just as today's world is extremely hostile to transgender people.

Can you blame those women who were born interracial and passed as white for not disclosing their african-ness in the face of such hostility? The problem was not how they were born, it was how society treated them.

Most people understand that today.

Can you blame those women who were born transgender and pass as cis for not disclosing their birth defect casually in the face of such hostility?

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: JadeStar

I'm starting to suspect that transphobia isn't the only problem with some of these posters, Jade. The downright dismissive attitude toward women, regardless of our origins, seems to hint at another particular bigotry present.

The male chauvinism reeks around them.

Welcome to ATS.

a reply to: JadeStar

Yeah, I guess I didn't spend enough time outside the UFO and Aliens section.

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: JadeStar

Yeah, I guess I didn't spend enough time outside the UFO and Aliens section.

Same with me but substitute Space Exploration for A&U.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: JadeStar

Yeah, I guess I didn't spend enough time outside the UFO and Aliens section.

Same with me but substitute Space Exploration for A&U.

That is what is great about this site is that there are so many genres and topics that it really brings people from all walks of life together to discuss spooky weird stuff and politics lol. Be careful the Illuminati is out to get you and use us Trans folk for their evil plot MUWAHAHAHAHA

a reply to: Kojiro

I'm starting to suspect that transphobia isn't the only problem with some of these posters, Jade. The downright dismissive attitude toward women, regardless of our origins, seems to hint at another particular bigotry present.

The male chauvinism reeks around them.

And there you go again, that transphobia nonsense didn't work, so now people who disagree with you will be labeled chauvinist.

You know you're wrong, but you keep trying. Its no longer admirable, it's desperate.

a reply to: Domo1
First of all, I honestly think, from reading your posts, that you are a good, tolerant person and I totally understand your position on this subject.
But let me ask you, what do you think is the worst reaction that you might have if you were to find out the best sex you've ever had was with a woman born different? And I am curious only about your reaction, not how other men might react. To use your "cheating wife" analogy, what would be worse for you, finding out that your wife of ten years has been cheating on you or finding out that your wife of ten years was born different?

a reply to: Domo1

At least I don't disrespect the dead.