At Age 3 — Transitioning From Jack To Jackie

originally posted by: EKron
You know, I reread the article linked in the OP then watched the video and read the comments I didn't the first time and may have a slightly different opinion? Had the parents strongly refused to let Jack identify and experiment as Jackie, the consequence one way or the other may have equal significance as allowing it? This would be interesting to look at again in five or six years.

So, I went back too, listened and read.

I'm raising my 7 year old grandson who is a mild high functioning Autistic. The average person wouldn't notice anything different about him.

He has no interest in the usual boy toys or sports. He loves his stuffed animals and is an openly proud Brony. He does not like anything scary. But, he's also quite masculine in his behaviors. He has an aggressive streak, loves to be loud, very into all the bodily functions poop/fart/burp, etc. His passion is creating videos on the computer.

He sometimes talks about being a girl, but in his case it seems more like a past life. He talks about "the girl" getting her drivers license. He came up to me once as I was sitting on a park bench with other moms and said, "Did you know I'm a girl?" You should've heard the gasps, and one recommendation I put him in sports.

I take it day by day and let him be/tell me who he is. I also did/do the shopping trip, letting him pick out what he likes. I am human 😁, I did turn down the pink Dora shirt with lace and found him a plain yellow one (his favorite color). He was OK with that. He's never tried to dress like a girl.

I'm on my 3rd generation now of raising kids (I have a 22 year old grandson as well). I've learned a lot.

I can't even imagine being a first time parent and dealing with something like this. Thankfully today there is help and awareness. Did you know there are camps for transgender kids, and they've had to expand? They can go when they are 8.

a reply to: Annee

I know a male who when he was a child was very effeminate in many ways: also he likes boy things (GI Joe, Star Wars, Superheros, he also like Cabbage Patch dolls. I remember one time at a Sci-fi/car convention, out of all the airbrushed shirts there with cars and stuff on them, he wanted the pink shirt with a teddybear brushed onto it.

When this child became an adult, he wasn't gay, or transgender. He's definitely not the "alpha male" type, but if he had wanted to start wearing dresses and grow his hair out when he was still very young there would have been deep concern among his parents and myself, and even if he *had* wanted those things, I'm not sure it would have been in his best interest.

And now I'm reminded of that parent who made a fuss because Target didn't have gender neutral signs for boys' and girls' toys. Target accused of gender inequality in toy department by Ohio mom

originally posted by: EKron
You know, I reread the article linked in the OP then watched the video and read the comments I didn't the first time and may have a slightly different opinion? Had the parents strongly refused to let Jack identify and experiment as Jackie, the consequence one way or the other may have equal significance as allowing it? This would be interesting to look at again in five or six years.

I thought of that too. I don't think they should necessarily have adamantly refused, but at least kept it in the home for a few years to see how it progressed.

And i briefly touched on the possible harm later in life (or in a few years) of not allowing it versus allowing it. Which would cause the greater harm, if at all? But that all depends on whether or not, in this case, it is truly (or more) biological or truly (or more) environmental.

If it's mostly environmental then allowing it might prove more harmful (socially), but if it's biological then forbidding or expressing it might prove to be more harmful.

That's why I think it should be give a few years to see how things play out over time and as development advances.

a reply to: EKron

Do you get the impression he thinks Jackie is going to hit puberty and start menstruating then worry about his sweet daughter dating or is he saying that something will have to be done to keep Jackie from having to go through Jack's puberty? If the latter is the case, is dad prepared for what probably will happen next?

The way I read it is the changes that occur during adolescence and puberty, namely sexuality and the psychological changes associated with it. Once puberty hits the hormonal changes that only occur as a male might conflict with his gender identity and cause confusion; he might start to question and possibly doubt things (if it isn't truly biological), suffer from depression, etc. If he has already lived his life as a girl, there could be some serious social and psychological consequences that happen ON TOP of the very dramatic, normal (hormonal and psychological) changes that happen if his desire to be a girl is mostly environmental.

The dad seems pretty certain this isn't a phase but from the article, I'm not so sure they've thought their cunning plan all the way through or left the door completely open for Jack to come back?

Exactly. See comment above.

a reply to: ketsuko

So what happens if little Joe decides at 3 he's a girl, so we let him "transition" to Josefine? Then one day, Josefine grows up and hits puberty and realizes she's attracted to girls. Do you now say that Josefine is gay? Is it just barely possible that we allowed Josefine to screw up? Maybe Josefine was just a regular little boy instead of a lesbian trapped in a boy's body, but since we must now validate everyone's reality instead of deciding that there is indeed one objective one for everyone like we used to ... we have actual chaos. Josefine could grow up identifying as Chinese Asian, too. Are you going to validate that reality of his/hers?

Totally agreed. See comment above.

a reply to: Liquesence

I agree with the Ohio mom. I am a supporter of gender neutral. That's not saying each child shouldn't express who they are. Easy bake ovens now come in neutral colors.

I have my grandson in both soccer and dance. We're going with the arts because he is very outgoing and loves to "perform". He actually likes to get up in front of his class and do presentations. In soccer, well not sure what he will do yet. I'm prepared to just work on being a team, team spirit, etc. Being Autistic, understanding "team" could be an issue. I'm not even thinking about the playing part.

If he wanted to wear dresses, I'd let him. But, he doesn't. There really is nothing feminine about him, but that isn't always an indicator ---- as it seems sexuality has a lot to do with brain makeup. He prefers soft fabric shorts and nothing else. OK, at home. He does like Minecraft and other character t-shirts. I let him pick them out.

I disagree on waiting til a child is older. My grandson was first recognized as Autistic at 18 months old. We thought his preschool teacher was crazy, but she insisted he be tested. She was right. The earlier the better.

originally posted by: ketsuko
So what happens if little Joe decides at 3 he's a girl, so we let him "transition" to Josefine? Then one day, Josefine grows up and hits puberty and realizes she's attracted to girls. Do you now say that Josefine is gay?

Ketsuko, you really don't understand any of this do you and it is obvious you don't want to either. Why does this bother you so much because I've seen you post in several other threads with similar topics and always with attitude and not so thinly disguised contempt if not hostility outright. Is it because you just don't like change or can't keep up with it or because you can't label everything black or white? May I ask how old you are or what gen and finally, why is it any of your business at all what Josefine does and how are you affected by it in any way?

This is how far we've fallen and how far society has decayed.

Who's society are you talking about, from what pedestal has it fallen and compared to what has it decayed? "Society" is not fixed at some point in time. It changes and evolves and is cyclically, out with the old and in with the new. Where do you fall in?

oops!

Um, regarding long term consequences:

I told my parents the same thing when I was 3. The years I was forced to live as a boy were among my saddest years. This lasted until age 7 when my parents finally allowed me to live as I was meant to.

Ten years later I completed my transition at age 17 when I had corrective surgery, and I could not be happier.

Today, I'm a 20 year old young woman who is in college and living a pretty normal life (yesterday I had a 4th of July cookout at my parents with my family and boyfriend who I've been with since H.S. No one brought up me being born differently.) And in my day to day life, one even knows I was born any different unless I say so.

So i was just like the 3 year old referred to in the OP. I am a girl who always knew who she was regardless of how I was born and regardless of all those who tried to convince me I was mistaken.

I turned out ok by all counts I guess?

As probably ATS's only representative with first hand experience as one of those kids who had early help (though not as early as in this case) I hope I am allowed to provide the perspective from someone whose experience with going through this with my parents and family's support?

My parents didn't start believing me until I was 5 or 6 and I was finally allowed to be the girl I am at home at least at 7 and publicly starting at 12. I wish my parents had believed me at age 3.

This kid is lucky, she may never know the sadness and depression I experiened, but a lot more is known now about this issue than 17 years ago.

If anyone has any questions about this stuff feel free to ask me or my parents (who I sent this thread to). Since "coming out" to ATS in another thread I see the value in educating people and as a result denying ignorance about what life is like for transgender children like I was.

Are my and my family's perspective welcome here?

a reply to: ghostrager

Would you like to tell my parents that and hear their side?

originally posted by: EKron

originally posted by: ketsuko
So what happens if little Joe decides at 3 he's a girl, so we let him "transition" to Josefine? Then one day, Josefine grows up and hits puberty and realizes she's attracted to girls. Do you now say that Josefine is gay?

Ketsuko, you really don't understand any of this do you and it is obvious you don't want to either. Why does this bother you so much because I've seen you post in several other threads with similar topics and always with attitude and not so thinly disguised contempt if not hostility outright. Is it because you just don't like change or can't keep up with it or because you can't label everything black or white? May I ask how old you are or what gen and finally, why is it any of your business at all what Josefine does and how are you affected by it in any way?

This is how far we've fallen and how far society has decayed.

Who's society are you talking about, from what pedestal has it fallen and compared to what has it decayed? "Society" is not fixed at some point in time. It changes and evolves and is cyclically, out with the old and in with the new. Where do you fall in?

I understand that the kid is three. He/she doesn't even know what a hormone is yet.

My own son used to tromp around the house in my shoes. I never stopped him. He also likes to help cook. He's also into cars, trucks and superheroes. He likes yellow and red.

The problem I am seeing here is that people are labeling activities as "boy" activities and "girl" activities.

I played all kinds of games and sports. I went fishing with my dad and could bait my own hook and take my own fish off. I did all kinds of things a son would do, but no one ever said, "Those are 'boy' things, so you can't do them." My favorite color was blue. No one ever thought I was "gender confused" for it either.

See here we go; I'm going to get all "hateful" on you. Because I was raised surrounded by people who saw a little girl. They never thought I was anything else even though I did "boy" things. Today, someone would start telling me I must be gender confused because I liked boy things because there is "gender fluidity." I might have wound up a sadder person for it.

originally posted by: Liquesence
I thought of that too. I don't think they should necessarily have adamantly refused, but at least kept it in the home for a few years to see how it progressed.

And i briefly touched on the possible harm later in life (or in a few years) of not allowing it versus allowing it. Which would cause the greater harm, if at all? But that all depends on whether or not, in this case, it is truly (or more) biological or truly (or more) environmental.

If it's mostly environmental then allowing it might prove more harmful (socially), but if it's biological then forbidding or expressing it might prove to be more harmful.

Like Annee said, I sure wouldn't want to be a first time parent trying to figure all this out. Since there's never been anything but theories to explain trans* or even gay, no one can definitively know if it is biological, psychological, environmental or as several have even posited in this thread, spiritual. Hell, as far as I'm concerned, I have absolutely no clues about myself or any finger I can point and say aha any more than I know why I don't like brussel sprouts or why given the choice between chocolate and vanilla, I usually go with vanilla. Some things defy explanation and just are.

I would say most if not all kids express they want to be a boy or a girl, which ever they aren't at some point? Initially, I think parents should help guide them toward gender appropriate choices especially if very young and indeed, if parents are actually encouraging and fostering cross gender behavior that isn't coming from the child, they should be drawn and quartered. If parents are objective and not pushing adult concepts, constraints and labels on their children and it is the children doing the pushing back against gender labels themselves and it is on a different level than I want to be Spiderman or a pirate, what to do about it and when really does really does bring some tough questions to the table.

I guess I would have somewhat of a difficult time accepting a three year old coming up with all this on their own but I suppose it is possible because I have no doubt a five or six year old could because I did. Since I don't remember being three and don't have anyone to ask about it, for all I know I could have been like Jack?

My head is spinning!

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I just worry and I say this without having watched any video that they are living vicariously through this little person.

Parents can be selfish sometimes and make poor decisions for their children. I've certainly done so having raised 4 children in a same sex household.

We never dealt with issues of gender identity and sexualitu really but we had our own challenges.

I've always found it best to give the time some time if you know what I mean. There are long term consequences for this little soul and the parents won't have to deal with half of it.

a reply to: JadeStar

Are my and my family's perspective welcome here?

Absolutely! You and your opinion are most welcome. And thank you for your personal story and your contribution to this thread!

A couple of simple questions:

Do you feel that not being allowed to live your life as your felt from age 3-7 *negatively* impacted your life to this day? You said you were depressed during *that* time, but you seem happy and successful now.

Do you have any siblings? If so what is their sex and age in relation to you?

Just curious.

I'm glad you were able to finally have things work out for you and that you're happy and living the life you want!

a reply to: Liquesence

young children might 'remember' being an opposite gender in a previous life or before living here today, it's very possible we actually can "choose" our gender when being born here, not just a "random" reality to experience but purposely 'part of the package', preplanned..

I am the mother of a transgender, female to male, teenager.

I was a dreadful parent to my son for most of his life because I was small minded and could not deal with the reality. I convinced myself that it was just a phase (from age 2), "she's just a tomboy" eventually that puberty would sort it all out. I was wrong. Puberty hit and my child became suicidal. My child struggled time after time to talk to me....

Eventually my child told me that life was not worth living because nothing would ever change and the body he was stuck in was a horrible costume he couldn't take off which lied to the world about who he is.

I finally heard my son, I finally saw him. This was after 15 years.

My child is the bravest, strongest person I have ever known. I am honoured and supremely grateful for the valuable lessons I have received from him. He is now 16 and is receiving assessment for treatment at one of the very few clinics dealing with children with gender identity issues in England.

P.S. Jadestar, your story is inspiring and comforting. Much love to you and your family. x

Ketsuko, you don't realize it but you've just made my argument for me. You did all these "boy" things, but felt like a girl and others saw you as a girl as well. That's great, how it is supposed to work and how it usually does work. Congratulations, you don't have gender issues but what would have happened if you knew inside, in your heart of hearts and to your very core, you were really a boy?

There are two aspects to gender: The gender role, how you present and are perceived by others and gender identity, how you perceive yourself internally. The first eighteen years of my life, my gender role was that of a boy or at least that's what I worked hard to make people believe because there were no medical options or "transitions" or to be anything else other than dead in the dark ages. It was a disingenuous and faked persona since from the time as far back as I can remember, I never felt inside that I was a boy and that my spirit or soul or whatever it is in your very core, my internal gender identity was female.

Although I was a late bloomer and didn't have too bad of a case of it, puberty turned my body against me and was a horrible time. By the time I got out of high school, I was so completely effed up, I faced a point I could no longer live with the division of who I was supposedly and forced to be outside with who I knew who I was inside. With zero ambiguity and without hint of question or indecision, I faced two choices - I could end my life or I could be the same outside as I was in my heart.

Medicine and understanding of all of this was in its infancy in 1974 and resources very limited but by 19, I had said adios to the fake person I had been forced to be, changed my name and began taking estrogen to change my body. It took three long years before I could find a surgeon and the money but at 22, underwent surgical sexual reassignment. Effectively, I've lived and worked my entire adult life or 41 of my 60 years as a woman and as a female, been happy, satisfied,was married to a great guy for 11 years and rid of the curse of gender issues. My only regret is being born forty years too soon and not being able to put all this crap behind me as a child as kids are able to do these days.

Today, because this has been studied and is much better understood. Options are available for younger people to live as what they are inside socially (transition), have drugs to postpone puberty for some additional time to mature without the mind and body poisoning effects of testosterone and the availability of having surgical correction very early. Look at JadeStar's story. Can you imagine if she was never allowed to be a girl and was forced to live as a boy? Do you think she'd have her stuff together, be pretty, going to college for a satisfying professional career and have a bright future if her parents had forced her into being a him? I can't even fathom what cruel and horrendous punishment this would have been. (note: that was more rhetorical because I can fathom it, pretty clearly in fact)

So, as to what about this bothers you or affects you in any way, you haven't explained. You may never get it because you haven't experienced it but it doesn't mean it isn't crucial for survival and a matter of life and death to those that have.

originally posted by: Liquesence
a reply to: JadeStar

Are my and my family's perspective welcome here?

Absolutely! You and your opinion are most welcome. And thank you for your personal story and your contribution to this thread!

Thank you.

A couple of simple questions:

Ok.

Do you feel that not being allowed to live your life as your felt from age 3-7 *negatively* impacted your life to this day?

Hmmm.. this one is best answered with a "maybe".

I was very sad and depressed during a time of life where children should be happy and making friends and well, just being kids. But instead of that I had people insisting that I was a boy and should be happy that. At first people thought it was just a phase and my parents just let me do what I wanted but when I was about 4 my parents tried to make me feel that I was weird for wanting to play with dolls, dress as a girl in my sisters old clothes, etc.

They insisted I was a boy.

I cried and said i wasn't.

Age 5 began my most unhappy year ever. I remember my dad taking me to the barber and him chopping off all of my hair! I was very sad when he forced me to look in the mirror saying "now that's a handsome young man". I was crying and so sad and SO ANGRY at my dad for forcing me to go there that I stopped talking to him. In fact I started to withdraw from talking to everyone. I didn't ever go back to another barber shop after that. My father was thoroughly embarrassed after what had happened.

At 6 I was having sports and other stuff people associate with boys forced on my by my dad and other men in our extended family. Holidays were the worst!

Every holiday where we had family over i dreaded because it would always involve different family members trying to make me either a) do stuff associated with boys in an effort to "change" me - or worse b) make me feel ashamed of wanting to be the girl i knew I was.

I had people always trying to tell me stuff like "boys are better than girls because...... (insert whatever stupid thing you can imagine people saying here), you should be happy you're a boy." etc.... every time someone did this i felt very queasy inside, its the only way i can describe it. It all just felt WRONG.

I hated Christmas with a passion. Like you're told you can have whatever you want right? But I never got what I wanted, it was always trucks, sports stuff, boy clothes, etc.

All this to try to change who I was because I couldn't POSSIBLY know who I was right? Wrong!

My mother got angry when I told her I didn't care, and that I hated the presents and hated Christmas. And this is is when I said something which ultimately started to change their mind about just how i was feeling.

I told her "I hate being a boy because I'm not, and if I had to be a boy then I wished I had never been born." My father being from the "old school" of child discipline took a strap to me for saying that to her.

So i quickly learned that I shouldn't talk much because i could not hide how I was and if i was truthful then i was either made to feel that I was mistaken, weird or in the worst case physically beaten.

I was sent to a child psychologist (the first of several) to discuss my feelings.

All i wanted was to be myself and be left alone.

So I withdrew a little and this affected me in that I was deemed "socially immature" and so I was "held back" in 2nd grade even though my grades were outstanding.

It is for this reason that I think one effect of that is that I tend to overwork myself academically. I was made to feel stupid being held back so so of course I had to show how smart I really was. Some might say this was a positive as i excelled at my schoolwork and without friends I had a singular focus. But I feel I missed out on what should have been a mostly happy childhood because of how i was treated.

It also took me longer to make friends. I didn't until I was allowed to begin living as a girl at home the next year. That was the advice of the psychologist and my parents reluctantly agreed to do so. Only then did i feel comfortable in my own skin and begin to feel happy about who I was that I could start to make friends.

You said you were depressed during *that* time, but you seem happy and successful now.

Yes. I am very happy today and I'm doing well in college. I have a wonderful understanding family but it took time for them to get to that understanding. I have a wonderful boyfriend too!

Do you have any siblings? If so what is their sex and age in relation to you?

All my siblings are older than me. I have 2 older sisters and 1 older brother. My sisters were very helpful in helping me as I grew up and my brother does what big brothers do and was very protective.

Just curious.

I'm glad you were able to finally have things work out for you and that you're happy and living the life you want!

Thank you

My parents would like to chime in if that's ok? If so then expect to hear from my mom (Tamara) and dad (Brian) this evening or tonight.

One wonders if having transgender kids will become the latest flavor of Munchausen by proxy syndrome. One gets sympathy, gets to be on the radio, and gets a lot of attention at the moment.

originally posted by: JadeStar
Age 5 began my most unhappy year ever. I remember my dad taking me to the barber and him chopping off all of my hair! I was very sad when he forced me to look in the mirror saying "now that's a handsome young man". I was crying and so sad and SO ANGRY at my dad for forcing me to go there that I stopped talking to him.

ARRrrgh! Painful memory! You too? I don't even want to think about it! I was 8 and supposedly going to spend the summer at my dad's house. Second day I was there, my curly blonde locks were no more and I cried to exhaustion because I looked like GI Joe or something. The day after that I came back home to my mom and step-dads and never had a boys haircut again but did have additional "hair" problems at school. I was almost expelled because I wouldn't cut it and my parents threatened to sue the school and they backed down. I told you I was a weird boy.

Jade, I think it is so wonderful your parents are going to come in and talk with us. That's really special.