Ukrainian forces says two drones shot down over war zone are Russian

a reply to: verschickter

The US would absolutely love to be able to tell the world that "Russia hit me first." Much to Russias credit they have seen this coming from a long way off.

a reply to: Azureblue

It's well documented that Israel sold at least four types of UAVs to Russia.

www.haaretz.com...


www.upi.com...

a reply to: Azureblue

The US would absolutely love to be able to tell the world that "Russia hit me first." Much to Russias credit they have seen this coming from a long way off.

How did the US get involved here, as it is an Israeli drone being flown by Russia over Ukraine?


Not everything in the world that happens involves the US.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Yes, seems to be an IAI Searcher II.

www.theguardian.com...

So the Russians where spying there with an unarmed drone.

en.wikipedia.org...

If they were there they wouldnt need to use drones, ricght?

a reply to: greyhat

The US is in Afghanistan and has UAVs all over the country. They can't be too far away. The Searcher-II is long endurance, but has a range under 200 miles (between 135 and 184 miles).

a reply to: Zaphod58

Performance
Endurance 20 hr.
Range 300 km
Altitude 23,000 ft

And we don't know about the accuracy of that pub data and russian modifications to the radios used.

a reply to: greyhat

It's not designed for long range beyond LOS missions like the Heron or Predator or other large UAVs are. To get truly beyond LOS requires a SATCOM type antenna, and it's too small to carry something like that. Tactical UAVs like the Searcher II are designed to stay close to where they're launched from, not go way out and look.

a reply to: Zaphod58

I dont know in wich technical universe you work, but i have a glonass capable gps-like chip in my smartphone and the one in my good old wardriving gps mouse isnt that much bigger...

We know from the media the russians modified the drone to make it resistant to radio attacks, i wouldnt rule out they also enhanced the radio range.

And yes, i know the meaning of LOS, but i also know about the existance of hills and portable antenna masts.

a reply to: greyhat

Completely different, but nice try. Tactical UAVs aren't autonomous, they're flown by a ground station. That means they have to have a datalink capable of going back and forth to fly them. For true long range, they require a satellite communications system. It's fairly easy to make them resistant to radio attacks, but to enhance the range, they require more power, which means heavier radios/power supplies. The Searcher II can only carry 150 pounds, so if you increase the range of the radios, you lose out on sensors, because you have to lose weight somewhere, because of the heavier radio/datalink systems.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Nice try, but they dont need batteries, the have a generator in their back!

It belongs on what you want to send back from the drone in realtime.

And you underestimate the feature set of the Searcher II

Datalinks

Direct Line-of-Sight (LOS) data link
UAV airborne data relay for beyond LOS missions
Ground-based data relay for beyond LOS missions

Is the FSB able to install a gbdr device in eastern Ukraine? I think so.

a reply to: greyhat

Uhm, what do you think a generator is? It's a POWER SUPPLY. Where did I say "batteries"? Go ahead, point it out. I'll wait.

The generator that is installed, is designed to power the systems that it was designed to carry. If you add a bigger radio to get more range, it requires more power. To provide more power, you either have to remove something that uses that power, or you have to put a bigger power supply in. A bigger power supply means more weight. That means you have to remove something to allow the aircraft to fly, or you lose range.

I don't underestimate anything. It's not designed for long range missions like the Heron or Predator, which is exactly what I said. There's more than one type of beyond LOS. Tactical UAVs use short range beyond LOS links. Larger UAVs use satellite links that allow for them to be flown from thousands of miles away. The Searcher II doesn't use a satellite link. That link is huge and weighs almost as much as the Searcher II does.

The UAV airborne data relay requires another UAV to be in the area flying to relay data to it. It chains the data through the first UAV to the second UAV. That essentially doubles the range, which still puts it less than 400 miles total rage.

The ground-based data relay requires another ground station to be within LOS of the original station to chain together, similar to the airborne relay system. They both allow for beyond LOS operations, but they require additional equipment to be available for the beyond LOS operations.

Even with hilltop antennas, and boosters, you can only extend the range a limited distance. The Searcher II isn't capable of being a true long range UAV, similar to other larger UAVs. It wasn't designed for that mission, and it can't perform that mission, even with modifications.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: greyhat

... The Searcher II doesn't use a satellite link. That link is huge and weighs almost as much as the Searcher II does.

www.google.com...

Thx, ill give up that discussion with you.

a reply to: greyhat

A satellite phone? That's your best response? God you have no idea what you're talking about do you? Do you have any idea the amount of data that gets transmitted from even a SMALL UAV? Not to mention that it has to be encrypted. You could be looking at Gigabits of data being sent back through the relay.

Standard quality video, for MPEG 2 requires 3-6 Mbps, MPEG-4 requires 1-2 Mbps, and HVEC requires 512 kbps. Standard high definition video requires 9-21 Mbps, 5-8 Mbps, and 2-3 Mbps. For high definition video, it's 31-42 Mbps, 10-20 Mbps, and 5-10 Mbps. Your Iridium phone has a direct internet data transfer rate of 10 kbps. The average satellite phone data transmission rate is in the 2-2.4 kbps range.

Yeah, that's really gonna work great.

a reply to: greyhat
-That generator you speak needs fuel..

-Nearly everone with a newer smartphone has glonass support.
en.wikipedia.org...

-GPS/GLONASS/Galileo/Beidu are all slightly*** more than a constellation of satellites broadcasting a standard signal so receivers can calculate the position via paket runtime. They do not provide broadband communication service. Simply building an autopilot that flies in and out will not do the trick.

-Like Zaphod pointed out, bandwith on a handheld (that would be the size fitting in that UAV) sat-com device is slightly more than nothing when it comes to data transmission.

***edit: nearly all, if not all GPS birds carry nudet sensors and then some

a reply to: verschickter

"It belongs on what you want to send back from the drone in realtime."
(greyhat)

a reply to: greyhat

The entire POINT of a UAV is to get real time video from a target area. If not you might as well send a unit in the ground and wait for them to get back.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Its also possible you only need radar echo coordinates to build a (dynamic) map, you can do single pic shots of an interesting area, you dont always need a live video stream. A lot of preprocessing kan be done onboard, before sending data.

BTW: Recalc your bandwidth numbers, we live in HEVC times and realtime video processing is done on rpi size low power arm boards today. Ask chinese companies like Alwinner what is possible today in the consumer mass market, calculate what is possible in military applications.

a reply to: greyhat

Those numbers were from a new downlink that was installed within the last year. They're accurate. Even using HEVC the data requirements are four or five times what a satellite phone can do for standard quality.

If you want the most accurate, you need high quality, which means you need good sensors and the abilities to broadcast in real time.