Is there evidence that Jesus Christ existed? Yes, there is.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Josephus claims that 6000 Jewish men were crucified outside the city walls during the Siege of Jerusalem.

It's the use of the "cross" for crucifixion that questioned.

a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

Did you really just compare me to a Young Earth Creationist and then tell me to debate the topic? I have done so plainly very early in this thread. ElectricUniverse seems to have an inexhaustible source of patience, and has endeavored to waste his time pointing out all the facts that have already been pointed out to you all ad nauseum. All this, in the vain hopes you might actually pay attention this time.

It is a complete waste of time, but I admire his tenacity. I'm sure you would agree with me that attempting to use logic in order to convince those who remain willfully ignorant in their faith is often an exercise in futility.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Curiously, they don't seem to have this same dilemma of historical credibility when it comes to Buddha or Mohammed.

a reply to: windword

Anyone that was crucified was done under orders of the Romans and by Roman law. The orthodox Jews did not have crucifixion as punishment. I have already posted the evidence that corroborates my statement.

a reply to: windword

And you are forgetting.



On page 79 in following book.

issuu.com...

Or to make easier to find on page 66 in following link. Link

By Rosemary Radford Ruether, Catholic scholar and Theologian. She mentions and shows the drawing from Sir Ernest Alfred Thompson Wallis Budge's book "Osiris: The Egyptian Religion of Resurrection". Sir Budge, and English Egyptologist, Orientalist and philologist made that drawing from sarcophagus art.

Sir Ernest Alfred Thompson Wallis Budge (27 July 1857 – 23 November 1934) was an English Egyptologist, Orientalist, and philologist who worked for the British Museum and published numerous works on the ancient Near East.[1] He made numerous trips to Egypt and the Sudan on behalf of the British Museum to buy antiquities, and helped it build its collection of cuneiform tablets, manuscripts, and papyri. He published many books on Egyptology, helping to bring the findings to larger audiences. In 1920 he was knighted for his service to Egyptology and the British Museum.
...

en.wikipedia.org...

On another book by Sir Budge, he translated the following poem about Osiris begetting Horus with Isis.

...
She flew round and round over this earth uttering wailing cries of grief, and she did not alight on the ground until she bad found him. She made light [to come forth] from her feathers, she made air to come into being by means of her two wings, and she cried out the death cries for her brother. 16. She made to rise up the helpless members of him whose heart was at rest, she drew from him his essence, and she made therefrom an heir. She suckled the child in solitariness and none knew where his place was, and he grew in strength. His hand is mighty (or, victorious) within the house 17 of Keb, and the Company of the Gods rejoice greatly at the coming of Horus, the son of Osiris, whose heart is firmly stablished, the triumphant one, the son of Isis, the flesh and bone of Osiris. The Tchatcha of Truth, and the Company of the Gods, and Neb-er-tcher himself, and the Lords of Truth, gather together to him, and assemble therein. 18. Verily those who defeat iniquity rejoice in the House of Keb to bestow the divine rank and dignity upon him to whom it belongeth, and the sovereignty upon him whose it is by right.
...

Legends of the Gods: The Egyptian Texts

a reply to: windword

Yes. Isis is a perpetual virgin. She immaculately conceived Horus, the Light of the World.

Here is some commentary on the "conception of Horus" from various Egyptian scholars:

1. "...drawings on contemporary funerary papyri show her as a kite hovering above Osiris, who is revived enough to have an erection and impregnate his wife." (Lesko, Great Goddesses of Egypt, p. 162)
2. "After having sexual intercourse, in the form of a bird, with the dead god she restored to life, she gave birth to a posthumous son, Horus." (Dunand / Zivie-Coche, Gods and Men in Egypt, p. 39)
3."Through her magic Isis revivified the sexual member of Osiris and became pregnant by him, eventually giving birth to their child, Horus." (Richard Wilkinson, Complete gods and goddesses of Ancient Egypt, p. 146)
4. "Isis already knows that she is destined to bear a child who will be king. In order to bring this about, she has to revive the sexual powers of Osiris, just as the Hand Goddess aroused the penis of the creator to create the first life." (Pinch, Handbook of Egyptian Mythology, p. 80)

So in short no virgin birth, at best you can claim a "miraculous birth" since it involves a "dead" and then "revived" husband.
And certainly nor a virgin birth as contained in the Bible (cf. Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-38). And you are right the "Mythicists-Crowd" and "Copy-Cat theories" are for another thread

Peace

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
a reply to: windword

Anyone that was crucified was done under orders of the Romans and by Roman law. The orthodox Jews did not have crucifixion as punishment. I have already posted the evidence that corroborates my statement.

Yeah. We know how Jews applied the death penalty. It's in the Old Testament, what's your point?


a reply to: ElectricUniverse

She flew round and round over this earth uttering wailing cries of grief, and she did not alight on the ground until she bad found him. She made light [to come forth] from her feathers, she made air to come into being by means of her two wings, and she cried out the death cries for her brother. 16. She made to rise up the helpless members of him whose heart was at rest, she drew from him his essence, and she made therefrom an heir.

SO? What's your point? I suppose in your mind that sounds like a blow job? LOL! Anyway you want to distort it, there was no f%#ing going on.

And you are forgetting.

LMAO! Where's Thoth-Hermes in that picture? HAHA! Someone had to draw in a penis and make it look like Osiris was awake and holding it erect too! But, Osiris' penis would have been all wrapped up, because his remains had been mummified by Anubis before the ceremony. Or do you think that Anubis and Thoth left a nasty hole in Osiris' mummy suit? LOL Stupid obvious Christian graffiti/forgery!

Are you forgetting?

Anubis sewed the pieces back together, washed the entrails of Osiris, embalmed him wrapped him in linen, and cast the Ritual of Life. When Osiris' mouth was opened, his spirit reentered him and he lived again.

“I, Isis, am all that has been, that is or shall be; no mortal man hath ever me unveiled. The fruit which I have brought forth is the sun."

Isis was THE PERPETUAL VIRGIN! No one can claim otherwise!

It written on the pyramid walls, carved in ancient stone.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Since the "Historicity of Jesus" is a re-occuring theme on ATS, here is a link that i posted ages ago on one the numerous threads concerning Jesus. Here are two excerpts for the article called : The Historicity of Jesus Christ.--Did He really exist ?

In this section, we will examine 1st and 2nd century sources which verify Jesus as an actual man of history
(not a compilation of pagan myths as some critics allege). Each of the following sections offer their own
advantages: the non-Christian sources are important as they had nothing to gain by their admissions. On the
other hand, the Christian witness had everything to lose- many paying for their testimony with their lives.

The outline we will be following for this discussion is as follows:
1) Secular Sources (Documentary)
2) Secular Sources (Commentary)
3) Jewish Sources (Non-Christian)
4) Extra-Biblical Sources (Christian)
5) Answering Common Skeptic Questions Concerning Jesus' existence
6) Conclusion

The article concludes :

A lot of evidence has been presented during this discussion to confirm Jesus Christ as a historical figure. We have viewed accounts taken from
numerous authors of different theological backgrounds and we have answered some common skeptic questions concerning Jesus' historicity.

I purposely avoided using Biblical evidence to support the existence of Jesus because that would be "using the Bible to prove the Bible."
Instead we focused this study on extrabiblical sources. However, early Christian historians and witnesses were unanimous in their accounts
that several New Testament books were written by eye witnesses of both Jesus and the apostolic ministry. If these authors were indeed eye
witnesses, we can believe they also provide evidence to the historicity of Jesus.

Some readers may be satisfied with such evidence, some may not. Whatever the case, I encourage you to examine all the facts for yourself
before reaching a logical conclusion.

Peace

a reply to: Seed76

Details of the engagement are wanting, but the Pyramid Texts state that the body of Osiris was hurled to the ground by Set at a place called Netat, which seems to have been near Abydos.

1 The news of the death of Osiris was brought to Isis, and she at once set out to find his body. All legends agree in saying that she took the form of a bird, and that she flew about unceasingly, going hither and thither, and uttering wailing cries of grief. At length she found the body, and with a piercing cry she alighted on the ground. The Pyramid Texts say that Nephthys was with her that "Isis came, Nephthys came, the one on the right side, the other on the left side, one in the form of a Hat bird, the other in the form of a Tchert bird, and they found Osiris thrown on the ground in Netat by

p. l

his brother Set." The late form of the legend goes on to say that Isis fanned the body with her feathers, and produced air, and that at length she caused the inert members of Osiris to move, and drew from him his essence, wherefrom she produced her child Horus.
www.sacred-texts.com...

There was no dismemberment, there was no regathering and reassembling of the body, there was no fake phallus. There is no coitus, no copulation. The essence of Osiris, through Thoth's magic, entered Isis to be reborn as Horus. Horus was not a genetic child produced through chromasonal donation.

If you can provide the ancient Egyptian text of Isis reassembling Osiris's body and created a prosthetic phallus, in order to conceive, I would be happy to admit that there are at least two ancient Egyptian versions. But as it is, the story just isn't in any of the Pyramid Texts, that I can find. And, I have looked! It appears, to me anyway, that this story is later oral adaptation to the Osiris/Isis/Horus saga.

Here's another Egyptian inscription from the Temple of Luxor depicting a nativity scene of a virgin birth, mirrored in an "As above so below" template of Isis, the perpetual virgin mother, and the birth of Pharaoh Amenhept III that dates from the 14th century BCE, 1390-1352 BCE! Pharaohs were considered divinity and were the representatives of Horus, on earth.



Here we a have a depiction of the God Thoth telling the Pharaoh Amenhept II, that his wife is miraculously pregnant, very similar to the story of the angel telling Joseph that is wife to be, Mary, is miraculously pregnant with a divine child.

According to the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament, at the Abydos Temple of Seti, Isis claims that she is "The Great Virgin" Ptolemaic text require that women acting, for ritual purposes, on behalf of Hathor, Isis or Nephthys must be virgins.

a reply to: windword

There was no dismemberment, there was no regathering and reassembling of the body, there was no fake phallus.

Taken from Encyclopedia Mythica on Osiris

Osiris was the Egyptian god of the underworld, although he was also worshipped as a fertility, resurrection, and vegetation god. He was married to Isis, a sky goddess. He was father to Horus, the god of sky, and protector of the dead.
Osiris was killed by his brother Seth, who shut his body in a chest and threw it into the Nile, where it washed up onto the shore and was trapped in a huge tree. The King Byblos turned it into a pillar in his palace. Isis (who had been searching for her husband) discovered the trunk, and retrieved the trunk and the body. While Isis was away, Seth found the body, and chopped it up into many pieces, and scattered them throughout Egypt. Isis and her sister, Nephthys, found the pieces and made wax models of them to give to priests to be worshipped. When they found all of his pieces, they were so sad they wailed loudly enough for Re, the father god, to have pity on them. He sent Anubis and Thoth to help. They mummified Osiris, and put his body in a lion headed pier. Isis changed into a kite and fanned breath into Osiris.

He was not allowed to stay in the land of the living, and was sent to the underworld to serve as king, and to judge the souls of the dead.

Also concerning the Phalus :

Plutarch also states that Set steals and dismembers the corpse only after Isis has retrieved it. Isis then finds and buries each piece of her husband's body, with the exception of the penis, which she has to reconstruct with magic, because the original was eaten by fish in the river. According to Plutarch, this is the reason the Egyptians had a taboo against eating fish. In Egyptian accounts, however, the penis of Osiris is found intact, and the only close parallel with this part of Plutarch's story is in "The Tale of Two Brothers", a folk tale from the New Kingdom with similarities to the Osiris myth.[47]

Osiris Myth

Here's another Egyptian inscription from the Temple of Luxor depicting a nativity scene of a virgin birth, mirrored in an "As above so below" template of Isis, the perpetual virgin mother, and the birth of Pharaoh Amenhept III that dates from the 14th century BCE, 1390-1352 BCE! Pharaohs were considered divinity and were the representatives of Horus, on earth.

Here we a have a depiction of the God Thoth telling the Pharaoh Amenhept II, that his wife is miraculously pregnant, very similar to the story of the angel telling Joseph that is wife to be, Mary, is miraculously pregnant with a divine child.

If you believe Zeitgeist that would be the case. But here something opposite :

Skeptic and historian Richard Carrier makes a couple points about the Egyptian Luxor birth inscription which I will summarize:

1. the Luxor inscription does not depict impregnation by a spirit, but involves very real sex
2. the woman involved is not Isis (e.g. Horus' mother) but the mythical Queen of Egypt in an archetypal sense
3. Panel 4: (often cited as key) describes the god Amun jumping into bed with the human Queen on her wedding night
4. Amun's buddy Thoth stands by the bed to watch, and after Amun "does everything he wished with her" she and Amun engage in some divine pillow talk
5. Amun tells her that she is impregnated and will bear his son, Amenophis (or "Amun is loved [or satisfied]")
6. Amun, not Thoth, announces the conception; and Kneph only forms the fetus and the soul and unites them, he does not impregnate the Queen
7. Panel 8: the ankh touched to the Queen's nose, does not depict an impregnation since she is already pregnant and "showing"
8. Rather, it is the birth that is announced, not the conception; Kneph proceeds to impart the god's soul into the divine fetus using the ankh
9. Panel 9: depicts the birth
10. the adoration scene only involves important state officials (or perhaps lesser divinities), not kings or "magi"
11. the cycle depicted at Luxor does not match up in the same sequence with the Christian narrative: the annunciation follows the conception in the Egyptian cycle (but in the same panel)
12. the actual Luxor sequence is conception and annunciation in panel 4, gestation and quickening in panel 8 (also a second speech of assurance), birth in panel 9, and then in panels 9 onward an adoration, and a confirmation
13. this type of sequence is found throughout Greek and Roman mythology, so Christians need not have gotten the idea from Egypt

All about Horus

So as i said on my previous post

And you are right the "Mythicists-Crowd" and "Copy-Cat theories" are for another thread

. Lets not go offtopic in this thread.

Peace

a reply to: Seed76

I have not cited Zeitgeist, nor have the seen the movie, and if there's book, I haven't read it. My citations come from actual primary texts and reliefs from ancient temple and pyramid walls and steles.

1. the Luxor inscription does not depict impregnation by a spirit, but involves very real sex

OF course the Luxor incription involved real sex, because pharaohs were real people! However, the ritual of conception of a royal offspring was done to imitate the immaculate conception of Horus. I cited the Luxor Inscription to show the ancient tradition of the virginal birth of Horus and the perpetual virginity of Isis.

It's the same with Mary. She really got pregnant in the real world, supposedly, not metaphorically in the celestial world like Horus. Real sex was involved! Use your head!

a reply to: windword

Now you are resorting once again to more false claims, claiming now that scholars and Eqyptologists have lied... BTW, in case you haven't realized it yet, according to myth Osiris was supposed to be a god, not a mortal.

ATS member Seed76 also gave you several references that you simply do not want to accept about Osiris begetting a Horus with Isis. The same thing you are doing, among some other mythicists, with the evidence that shows Jesus Christ was a historical figure.

a reply to: Seed76

Thank you for adding more links and evidence.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

I have given you primary sources from pyramid text, written in stone on the walls and temples, attesting to the virginity of Isis. I have cited where Plato visited Egypt and claimed that the temple wall proclaim Isis to be a perpetual virgin.

FACT: Isis was considered a virgin in traditional Egyptian mythology.

BTW, in case you haven't realized it yet, Osiris was supposed to be a god, not a mortal.

OMG! Do you realize that all the Egyptian pantheon are ALL immortal? Isis was his sister, also a god and not mortal LOL! Are you just figuring this out?

By the way, here is a commentary from Plutarch about how Isis collected body parts to create temples. Plutarch would have been a contemporary of Jesus of Nazareth, had he existed, but never mentions him in his comparative religions essays, like this one:

The traditional result of Osiris's dismemberment is that there are many so‑called tombs of Osiris in Egypt;89 for Isis held a funeral for each part when she had found it. Others deny this and assert that she caused effigies of him to be made and these she distributed among the several cities, pretending that she was giving them his body, in order that he might receive divine honours in a greater number of cities, Band also that, if Typhon should succeed in overpowering Horus, he might despair of ever finding p47the true tomb when so many were pointed out to him, all of them called the tomb of Osiris.90

Of the parts of Osiris's body the only one which Isis did not find was the male member,91 for the reason that this had been at once tossed into the river, and the lepidotus, the sea-bream, and the pike had fed upon it;92 and it is from these very fishes the Egyptians are most scrupulous in abstaining. But Isis made a replica of the member to take its place, and consecrated the phallus,93 in honour of which the Egyptians even at the present day celebrate a festival.

Isis and Osiris
by
Plutarch

Seed76 has provided no primary evidence, just someone's sorted and smarmy opinion that a bird can literally have intercourse with a dead corpse to get a woman pregnant! You've both completely missed the "veiled" principle of the feminine principle of goddess and like brainwashed, good little Christian see all women as sluts and whores, except for own Virgin Mary, who definitely really was a virgin when she gave birth to real god! LOL!

originally posted by: windword

OMG! Do you realize that all the Egyptian pantheon are ALL immortal? Isis was his sister, also a god and not mortal LOL! Are you just figuring this out?
...

So you do know that they were seen as immortal gods, and not just as mortals huh?... So then why did you post the following as evidence of your claims?...

originally posted by: windword

“I, Isis, am all that has been, that is or shall be; no mortal man hath ever me unveiled. The fruit which I have brought forth is the sun."

Isis was THE PERPETUAL VIRGIN! No one can claim otherwise!

It written on the pyramid walls, carved in ancient stone.

You were showing the above apparently as proof of her virginity, which shows you don't even know what that is referencing, which has nothing to do with her supposed virginity.

Anyways, even Sir Budge himself states in another book named "Legends of Our Lady Mary the Perpetual Virgin and Her Mother Hanna".

...
It has often been said and written that the cult of Isis and Horus and the worship of Mary the Virgin and the Child are one and the same thing but the above summary of facts which are derived from Egyptian religious texts has been prepared to show that such is not the case. The original Isis was an African goddess who appeared in human form and married the god-man Osiris and conceived a son begotten by him after been murdered. Mary was a woman the daughter of well-known parents, and although the circumstances that attended her conception were so unusual as to be miraculous she was not divine. Mary became...

link

a reply to: windword

BTW, you gave as proof for your drawing a link to the Isiac tablet. In case you didn't know the Isiac tablet is not Egyptian in origin.

The Isiac Tablet of Cardinal Bembo
by W. Wynn Westcott
[1887]

The Bembine tablet, or the Mensa Isiaca is a bronze tablet with silver and enamel inlay, probably of 1st Century Roman origin. Although it depicts Egyptian themes, it is not Egyptian in origin. In the 17th century, Athanasius Kircher attempted to interpret it as a key to the Egyptian hieroglyphics, unsuccessfully. Occultists have long sought esoteric meaning in the tablet: Westcott, Eliphas Levi, and Manly P. Hall all believed that it was the key to the Tarot. The tablet is currently on display in the Museum of Antiquities in Turin.
...

sacred-texts.com...

Not to mention that you also gave links to not very reputable websites which don't deal with historical facts, but rather on claims.

About the "Philosophical Research Society."

Philosophical Research Society
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Philosophical Research Society, Inc. (P.R.S.) is an American nonprofit organization founded in 1934, by Manly Palmer Hall, to promote the study of the world's wisdom literature. Hall believed the accumulated wisdom of mankind is the birthright of every individual, and built the facility to serve the general public to this end.

Its current president is Obadiah S. Harris, Ph.D.[1] Under Dr. Harris, in 2000[2] PRS created a subsidiary which is doing business as the University of Philosophical Research. The University offers two nationally accredited Master’s programs (M.A. in Consciousness Studies and M.A. in Transformational Psychology) and a newly approved (as of 2014) Bachelor of Arts program in Liberal Studies. All degree programs are online.
...

en.wikipedia.org...

Not exactly very reliable sources...

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Are you nuts? You're trying to prove the historicity of Isis as a real person now! LOL! Isis was the sister of Osiris. Of course she was a celestial goddess.

Isis, was for almost 3,500 years, the principle Goddess of Egypt. She was the wife and sister of Osiris and the mother of Horus, and the personification of the faithful wife and devoted mother. Isis is the Mistress Of The Words of Power and the Goddess Of Nature. She is the embodiment of nature and magic. The lap of the Goddess Isis was regarded as the royal throne, while her breast poured forth the nectar that conferred the divine right to rule.
en.wikipedia.org...

In the typical form of her myth, Isis was the first daughter of Geb, god of the Earth, and Nut, goddess of the Sky, and she was born on the fourth intercalary day. She married her brother, Osiris, and she conceived Horus with him.
en.wikipedia.org...

This Egyptian deity under many names appears as the principle of natural fecundity among nearly all the religions of the ancient world. She was known as the goddess with ten thousand appellations and was metamorphosed by Christianity into the Virgin Mary, for Isis, although she gave birth to all living things--chief among them the Sun--still remained a virgin, according to the legendary accounts.

Isis, the Virgin of the World

IT is especially fitting that a study of Hermetic symbolism should begin with a discussion of the symbols and attributes of the Saitic Isis. This is the Isis of Sais, famous for the inscription concerning her which appeared on the front of her temple in that city: "I, Isis, am all that has been, that is or shall be; no mortal Man hath ever me unveiled."
----------------
Isis is the Virgin immortalized in the constellation of Virgo, where the World Mother is placed with the serpent under her feet and a crown. of stars on her head. In her arms she carries a sheaf of grain and sometimes the young Sun God.
----------
Therefore, in contemplating the statue of Isis, we must not lose sight of the occult sense of its allegories; otherwise, the Virgin remains an inexplicable enigma.
-----------
Isis, or Nature personified, carries with her the sacred fire, religiously preserved and kept burning in. a special temple by the vestal virgins. This fire is the genuine, immortal flame of Nature--ethereal, essential, the author of life.

Isis, the Virgin of the World

a reply to: windword

No... i am trying to prove that the claim of Jesus being Horus, or even Mary being Isis is false. It is based in false claims...

Got my threads mixed up and had to edit my post which was meant for another thread.

I'd still like to thank all the participants in this thread for their insights, I've enjoyed reading it and find this debate very interesting.

a reply to: windword

In case you didn't understand what they were talking about, it was "opinion"... not based on facts, but interpretive mythology.

If you actually bother to read that link you gave from sacred-texts you would have read.

...
Plutarch affirms that many ancient authors believed this goddess to be the daughter of Hermes; others held the opinion that she was the child of Prometheus. Both of these demigods were noted for their divine wisdom. It is not improbable that her kinship to them is merely allegorical. Plutarch translates the name Isis to mean wisdom. Godfrey Higgins, in his Anacalypsis, derives the name of Isis from the Hebrew ישע, Iso, and the Greek ζωω, to save. Some authorities, however, for example, Richard Payne Knight (as stated in his Symbolical Language of Ancient Art and Mythology), believe the word to be of Northern extraction, possibly Scandinavian or Gothic. In these languages the name is pronounced Isa, meaning ice, or water in its most passive, crystallized, negative state.
...

www.sacred-texts.com...

Isis was seen as a goddess, a divinity. Mary was a human. Then there are the discrepancies of Jesus and Horus which of course you want to deny.

BTW, show where in the Isiac tablet is that drawing you excerpted.

Here i will help you to a bigger copy of that 1st century ROMAN depiction.



From.

Link