Where do you draw the line that dictates an individuals life value within our animal kingdom?

originally posted by: TheUsersName
a reply to: Bluesma

I wonder if you would consider putting an animal down for those same reasons you would a human, as an example what if a tiger killed, just hypothetically, 20 people. Do you think that the tiger should be executed or would you try to find another way around the situation?

Oh yes, I would put it down. Unless the animal was very rare and in danger of extinction, perhaps I would look into whether there would be a way to keep it in a zoo safely.

If the latter is that because you believe humans are inhertingly more dangerous than other animals due to the principle they are more "aware" or what they are doing or how much pain they have truly caused?

The awareness principle doesn't really seem relevant to me. That's why the "insanity" plea has never made sense to me.
We are animals- social animals. Social animals protect their group from dangerous individuals, whether they be of the same species or not.

The simple answer is; humans are f*ed.

They have expansive minds, within tiny bodies, thst they can hardly take control of (the body/beast).

This species we are of; have a sense of hierarchy, thirst for control, and naturally competitive with each other and other species who offer challenge.

I belive humans were put here to be caretakers and experience harmony and abundance with the natural order of Earth.

But our free will mixed with expansive minds and mental levels of heirarchy have caused more chaos then ever imagined. Brining death and extinction to much of creation's beings.

We are the strangest species the world over; not because of what we look like or how we go about culturally.

But because what goes on inside of our minds is so parallel to harmony and balance, there is no common foundation for us to exist in such harmonically balanced states with creation.

So we kill. Rape. Slaughter. Destroy. Then we make up more bull# in our MINDS to justify what is natural and morally WRONG!

We have went from caretakers of natural order, to chaotic barbarians that are full of # justifiers. As well as the passive-watch-chaos and do nothing humans, who are equally at fault.

In natural societies, rape is mostly unheard of, and murders would be scarcity too. Humans overall are like bonobo's, gentle, hippy types, attracted to beauty and lakes, and kindness, and not harming others. Thats the basic human.

And this world was formed like a photo, movie, program, for humanity to move forward, to grow up. Not the only work station one can participate in, but think people tend to stick with family groups alot.

thetruthwins.com...

Here are some of the quotes from the psycho's mismanaging or who want to further mismanage earth affairs.

Note, they hate humans.

I would guess most of them have attended rituals, and think they're draco's feeding off people.

quotes.liberty-tree.ca...

"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on
a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of
it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people
don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in
Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the
country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to
drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no
voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the
country to danger. It works the same in any country."

We're not from here, so I think every day, is a gift (sometimes a trouble and disaster unfortunately) to learn something, grow a kindness, a communication, a skill, and that is all this is.

All the "isms" about it and severe consequences, and beliefs in karma, are to me, dark side programming. Clear your mind, still the waters, and attempt to see your reflection clearly, calmly. Strive to do good or your best. But don't buy into any programming. Everyone is learning.

originally posted by: ElohimJD
For me God draws the line.

Some animals were created by the Creator for food for mankind (clean meat, cows, chickens, tuna).

Some animals were created by the Creator as companions (pets) for mankind (dogs, cats, horses).

Some animals were created by the Creator as mortal warnings and can attack mankind if treated improperly (lion, tigers, bears).

Some animals were created by the Creator to serve ecological function in the environments of mankind (bottom feeders, bees, pigs etc).

No animals are "free moral agents" with the ability to think and design reasonable actions, that is a design found only in mankind, they operate via instinct and therefore are not human.

I do not define the animal kingdom in humane terms, it is illogical.

God Bless,

Awesome post. And then there are animals who seem designed to work too, you know, oxen, horses, and such.

I think an important aspect is to be grateful for them. To quietly thank them and appreciate them for a sacrificed life so you and your family can live and thrive, and take care that they can be replenished, as we would want humanity to be. Same goes for an apple.

Long ago I read that in Gibran's "The Prophet", and I've always remembered.......

Anyhoo, I love and appreciate your thoughts.

Every animal has its place in nature. Some eat. Some are eaten.

Most have very little concept of time beyond the immediate now. Even your dog or cat has little concept of it. Do what you can to treat them with respect, even if you must kill them for food. Make sure your child knows where his or her food will come from so that he or she is also aware of the need for respect, that something died that he or she might live.

Anything and everything can potentially be food ... even the family dog or cat. As much as I love them, if I were starving ... although my heart would break and I would hate myself and I'm not sure I could until the time came. I hope I never have to test it, but sadly my husband and I have discussed the possibility.

a reply to: GoShredAK

Good question... one that would cause some rambling and tangents while sorting out... I'm no exception...

It's easy feeling less empathy for an ignorant human as opposed to the earnest, loving honesty of a canine, for instance, but every human has such honesty and love in them, too... buried deep under complexity (some would call it age and environmentally accumulated garbage).

Any human a concerned, educated citizen of the West would consider a prime candidate for summery execution (pederast, poacher of endangered beasts, cutter of old growth rain forest, mass murderer, serial rapist, etc) could be educated and loved enough to reprogram them into something more empathetic and acceptable.

It simply takes resources to do it. It's easier to use a bullet, to some.

Life seems intelligent (with caveats)... it might just be a sliding scale of ability to hold complex chains of thought. Some say it's based on brain size... but there is a fuzziness there. Colonies of bacteria show some intelligence. We kill millions of bacteria and cell colonies every moment our conglomerate bodies continue living.

Why do we draw arbitrary lines as to what we eat, for instance? Why are vegetarians considered morally superior when they, too, must consume life to live. Some studies have at least indicated plants might have a consciousness.

The basic life- food chain is barbaric and selfish... I'd think once we can exist using energy not attached to life, like plants, we'd have a leg to stand on morally. Until then, we are all mass killers and thus deserve our demise... heh.

If energy itself is found to have sentience... moralists will be even more neurotic.

What the heck was my point? There was one, but I'll be darned if I can find it again... oh... yeah... the line we draw that ascribes value to life is arbitrary and relative... live with that.. or not.

Apparently there is nothing sacred about life, at all.

Everything that has ever lived, has died, or is going to die.

Personally, I like the philosophy of most Native Americans; Respect
all life, and if you must kill to eat, do not be wasteful. I especially
like that they thank the animal that they are about to eat for its
sacrifice...instead of praying and thanking some God.

a reply to: rival

The Native American people had it right. I love that

a reply to: GoShredAK

We're the only species who believes in things that don't exist. This has allowed us to dominate and destroy what does exist.

a reply to: Unity_99

A look at any anthropological study will show that the idea of the noble savage stereotype is wrong. In many of the cases, the rate of violence in tribal communities is on par with populated American ones.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: GoShredAK

We're the only species who believes in things that don't exist. This has allowed us to dominate and destroy what does exist.

i dont think one necessarily leads to the other.

i also think you are touching on an unrelated issue, unless you are criticizing the emotional foundation of our animal relationships.

You know whats the funny thing about parasites that live of being that consider them lesser?

They die along with them.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: GoShredAK

We're the only species who believes in things that don't exist. This has allowed us to dominate and destroy what does exist.

How do you know what the entire Animal Kingdom believes? Have you asked them all and somehow deciphered what they were saying?

Thought not.

originally posted by: TheUsersName
a reply to: generik

Really though how are we supposed to survive if we can't even harm plants?

The way I see its just nature to take other life to prolong your own, if your coming from the standpoint where damaging even plant life is immoral in some way then every living thing on the planet is at it, we're just doing it on a much bigger scale, because we're human we're doing everything on a bigger scale.

Think of everytime you shower how much germs and bacteria you are "killing" every step you take crushing what millions, billions? I dunno but if you go extreme over it theres no escaping it we're all in it. I can't think of anything that doesn't survive without taking some sort of "life".

Though we today have a system where its no longer a hunter/gathering scenario fending to survive. Its a buisness, a massive one, everyones gotta eat. So due to another part of human nature, greed, some people have gone to a point where at least I think anyway its unethical. We are enslaving animals, you've all seen some crazy videos of what goes on in some of those slaughterhouses and battery hens etc its horrifying, some of us empathise, can imagine if we where put in a scenario like that and to right because it is horrible. Yet last night I got some fried chicken in a take away and I can only imagine what that chicken went through before it was cut up and cooked so I could satisfy the munchies. I'll buy free range when in the supermarket but yeah ultimatley I just fund it to keep going all the same.

Saying that at least now we have free range as an option and more things like that are becoming available. I think its an idea gradually becoming more accepted as time goes on, people can justify eating animals, but not to the extent some people are doing it. Its abuse. Alot of people are waking up to that and slowly more options are becoming available to make that lifestyle easier for you. So its work in progress, I think or at least hope that in the future new rules will be introduced for animal rights which stops them being treated so cruel. Me personally though? I cannot say where we "draw the line" I just know its definatley been crossed.

Good points, tough questions.

It's impossible for us humans to not inadvertently harm plants and especially microscopic beings.

So for me what matters is to not act with carelessness when dealing with plant life, for example, don't chop down a living tree or just stomp through brushes when such is unnecessary. What saddens me is that many will do both of those without a second thought, zero empathy, zero regret, accompanied with a sense of superiority.

Bacteria? Man, that's tough, how in the heck can we be expected to not harm them? All I know is I love and respect (I actually thank them) the probiotics I consume in my favorite drink, Kombucha tea. We are a team and those little guys do work in my belly.....

Not sure what else I can say, I only respond when I feel like I have something worth typing, I can't force replies out of my mind, which is why I disappear from time to time.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, long days and pleasant nights

The book "Darkness Over Tibet," By Theodore Illion, is considered a rip-off of "Magic and Mystery in Tibet," by Alexandra David-Neel.
Most doubt Illion is even his real name, or that he went to Tibet at all.

However, he makes an interesting statement in the book regarding Buddhism and vegetarianism.
Basically, he says there are animals and bugs that are on their way UP in the kingdom, evolution-wise, and spritually, and some on their way DOWN, such as rats, roaches, other vermin and "pests," sharks and other violent carnivorous predators.
He makes the point that one cannot allow the rats to infest the home and eat all their food - humans must keep the rats out, and not worry if they starve - you can't just let them live in your house and eat your food and bite your children and pets. Screw the rats.

I thought that was an interesting concept, I can't say for sure to what degree I agree with it just yet - but yea, screw the rats lol.

I don't eat meat at all personally, and where I do know that plants are living things, and even emit bio-energies, they don't have a brain or nervous system. That's a pretty big difference between plants and animals.

I didn't care so much before about animal rights so much as it's just gross. People would say I was hypocritical for wearing leather. Big difference between wearing it and chewing it up and eating it. Now I feel it too much, the DNA of another animal, the adrenaline from the slaughter...yuck...

Since being Reiki attuned, I just can't do it. I have friends who are Reiki masters who can handle it, and I've talked to a few about it, and it also has to do with your ancestry - spiritual and physical. Some have traditions and rituals like Native Americans, and they honor the animal, etc. I personally come from a vegetarian lineage, so, no meat for me.

a reply to: strongfp

I've always had the thought that in secondary school there should be a class that all students take to teach real world skills, and educate through example and experience, such as mortgages, drugs and alcohol abuse, where our food comes from, etc. going on various field trips and what not. I know when I finally get a decent plot of land I'll be going for sustainability and trying to live through the respect of mother nature, not only will it keep me busy but it's interesting, fun, and good for the environment.

I'm procrastinating on the thought of sending my wee one to school, it scares the you know what outta me and I don't agree with the current mainstream education system (probably why I got my diploma through an alternative high school)

I wouldn't mind sending my child to a class like you described, I only hope the drug and alcohol part is severely limited as far as expierience goes lol that probably has massive potential to backfire. Even though I also believe GMO, nutrient lacking school lunches + mainstream brainwashing and false history lessons are even more harmful than mind altering substances.

I wish you the best of luck achieving the sustainable land, more power to ya! I wish we could all do that. In the golden age I mentioned in the OP, not only would we all be traveling via skate or snowboard, we would also all have our own plot of land....

Keep striving towards your goals and don't let anything negative take you down

originally posted by: Bluesma
I find a repulsion to pain which is stronger than a repulsion to death.

A scene in "The Witches of Eastwick", in which Michelle Pfieffer describes her biggest fear not being death, but pain.
It was the most accurate expression of my own feelings on this.

Well, we should not just hate humans, even though it may be difficult at times. I feel hate is an emotion we should work collectively to eliminate............then again, maybe not? I have hate, I would love to be locked in a cage with certain evil people's of the world and express that, so that is another tough one.

Death? I agree, all that scares me is the pain the panic, regrets and emotions. The conclusion excites me, like going to bed and hoping for a super awesome vivid dream.....

Good stuff, thanks for stopping by

originally posted by: DAVID64
a reply to: GoShredAK

I feel in my heart we have no business messing with wonderful creatures like Orcas and Dolphins

Orcas are just really big dolphins.

animals.nationalgeographic.com...

Orcas, or killer whales, are the largest of the dolphins

We all have to eat, but that doesn't mean we have to be cruel in our treatment of animals of rape the land to plant crops. Moderation.

Very cool. I wasn't certain of that.

Have you ever seen the documentary "Blackfish?"

If not, and you're anything Iike me and want to get really angry and sad at the same time, you should check it out.

originally posted by: Aleister
Size and ickyness may play a role. If an 'ugly' insect is so tiny we can easily squish it (or a spider so 'yuck' that we don't catch every one and put it outside, and I'm guilty of that), then we think we 'are allowed' to kill it.

Author Robert Anton Wilson wrote, paraphrase, that only one in a thousand humans know that insects are people. He said we demean and insult insects by labeling them with names like 'bugs'.

As for plants, most vegans only eat seeds and not the whole plant, although they know that the entire plant was probably killed to obtain the seed. Gotta eat (or become fruitarian).

Spiders creep me out a little bit, I've killed a few and justified doing so by thinking "you could have bitten me or a member of my family."

I'll still save them though, about two months ago while at work, I picked up a little spider and let him out our loading bay door. During that same month I also avoided hitting an already injured fly with a vacuum.

I don't know though I may just be crazy, I have no emotions for maggots, they repulse me beyond description. Hey! Maybe that's where we draw the line? Maggots.

Couldn't one compare eating a plant seed to eating a mammalian fetus? I do both........

I'm starting to throw myself for a loop and am running out of posting energy.....

You're contribution is most welcome and appreciated...

originally posted by: Unity_99
You choose to be Love and Goodness, advancing spirit and individual, who like the most caring and good parent, Mother and Father, values everyone as family and each child or extended family as if they are bigger than the universe, (they are), and worth more than everything in existence. And you work to free their minds and advance them to the next level.

You never give up on anyone and there shouldn't be money so all breakthroughs in science and medicine belong to all. What some call patents and ownership (which is a completely dark sided idea unless its personal home, belongings and space) is really gifts to humanity, for this our world, and humanity is our family.

As an advancing caring being, you value and caretake all the children and value all creatures great and small.

Thanks Unity, I always take the time to read the words you have written

Glad to have you around

Much love.....