Where do you draw the line that dictates an individuals life value within our animal kingdom?

I am admittedly someone who is much more heartbroken when the dog dies in a movie, as opposed to when some random character gets smoked. Not so much in real life, but I must always be honest here, I could see myself feeling the same way in reality given the appropriate circumstance.

I feel in my heart we have no business messing with wonderful creatures like Orcas and Dolphins (just the best examples) they have a sense of family, they are intelligent.

What makes us greedy parasitic consumers so superior?

I feel the same way about trophy hunting, and the twisted sense of pride some strive for by killing the most exotic animals.

I won't even kill a bear unless my family needs it or if one of those beastly natural machines of carnage is looking to end me first.

Where does anyone draw the line? Is it brain size? Characteristics? Nerve endings? The presence or absence of pain? Who gets a soul? Who doesn't? (K-9s sure seem to have them)

Insects vs reptiles vs fish vs mammals?

Why is it ok to to harvest ridiculous amounts of certain animals, yet it gets touchy when other animals are treated poorly.

Do we all have consciousness and equal rights to this planet? or is there some strict species transition where morality looses all relevance?

I find it hard to believe we are simply the top of the food chain and this is just how things must be. I think we, humankind should pull our heads out of our butts and respect all aspects of mother nature. From the smallest blade if grass to the mightiest tree. From the most annoying housefly to the highest soaring eagles.

Any thoughts?

(disclaimer, I eat meat occasionally, and fully support hunting to support ones family, I would only hope and assume some genuine respect is involved.)

Where does anyone draw the line? Is it brain size? Characteristics? Nerve endings? The presence or absence of pain? Who gets a soul? Who doesn't? (K-9s sure seem to have them)

Walk softly and carry a large stick.

There is intelligence and wonderment in all living things. I have personally watched the dynamics of trees and have seen how they interact with one another. Like trees will help one another survive if the same but will rival for sunlight and position among other trees. Like suddenly in on season a perfectly healthy limb will die off so a young tree can get the sun it needs. Rabbit and birds frolicking, deer playing with one another.

We don't see the innerconnectedness of nature because we have removed ourselves from it. Little boxes on the hillside made of ticky tacky and wood.

Also it's much easier taking the life of an animal when you can respect them and their environment. Besides, by doing so I feel I contribute to the betterment of animal kind. If I don't support mass slaughter by buying hotdogs at the market by hunting deer, pheasant, turkey etc than I am at peace with my actions. Besides its me or the coyotes and im far more "humane"

originally posted by: Rosinitiate

Where does anyone draw the line? Is it brain size? Characteristics? Nerve endings? The presence or absence of pain? Who gets a soul? Who doesn't? (K-9s sure seem to have them)

Walk softly and carry a large stick.

There is intelligence and wonderment in all living things. I have personally watched the dynamics of trees and have seen how they interact with one another. Like trees will help one another survive if the same but will rival for sunlight and position among other trees. Like suddenly in on season a perfectly healthy limb will die off so a young tree can get the sun it needs. Rabbit and birds frolicking, deer playing with one another.

We don't see the innerconnectedness of nature because we have removed ourselves from it. Little boxes on the hillside made of ticky tacky and wood.

Awesome reply, I genuinely respect that outlook to a serious degree. It seems you have waded into the waters I'm kind of dancing upon the edge of.

The interconnectness of nature and how all thigs connect in some sort of ancient poetic manner is awe inspiring, even at the most subtle levels.

The first part of your post reminded me of one of my many summers spent in Southeast Alaska. There I learned the entire magnificent rainforest was attached deep below at the roots (monster sized roots) this is why trees hardly ever fall during storms in southeast, they're a single unit.

I bet the root connectedness serves many purposes we aren't quite aware of.

originally posted by: GoShredAK

originally posted by: Rosinitiate

Where does anyone draw the line? Is it brain size? Characteristics? Nerve endings? The presence or absence of pain? Who gets a soul? Who doesn't? (K-9s sure seem to have them)

Walk softly and carry a large stick.

There is intelligence and wonderment in all living things. I have personally watched the dynamics of trees and have seen how they interact with one another. Like trees will help one another survive if the same but will rival for sunlight and position among other trees. Like suddenly in on season a perfectly healthy limb will die off so a young tree can get the sun it needs. Rabbit and birds frolicking, deer playing with one another.

We don't see the innerconnectedness of nature because we have removed ourselves from it. Little boxes on the hillside made of ticky tacky and wood.

Awesome reply, I genuinely respect that outlook to a serious degree. It seems you have waded into the waters I'm kind of dancing upon the edge of.

The interconnectness of nature and how all thigs connect in some sort of ancient poetic manner is awe inspiring, even at the most subtle levels.

The first part of your post reminded me of one of my many summers spent in Southeast Alaska. There I learned the entire magnificent rainforest was attached deep below at the roots (monster sized roots) this is why trees hardly ever fall during storms in southeast, they're a single unit.

I bet the root connectedness serves many purposes we aren't quite aware of.

Indeed. The movie avatar touched on it well. All plants communicate via root systems. Some plants actually attack other plants root system, kills them off and takes the area. Very similar to us i reckon. There are plants that send pheromones in into the air when they're attacked by a comon predator insect. This pheromone attracts a bird that loved feeding on said insects. Wish I could remember the species.

a reply to: GoShredAK

Where does anyone draw the line? Is it brain size? Characteristics? Nerve endings? The presence or absence of pain? Who gets a soul? Who doesn't? (K-9s sure seem to have them)

i agree where do we draw the line. why is it OK to kill plants by some people, but not animals? Why is it ok to to harvest or hurt /damage (like cutting laws, trimming hedges etc) ridiculous amounts of plants, yet it gets touchy when animals are treated poorly? plants are just as alive as any animal, so why is it ok to not just kill plants to eat but to purposely maim them for no other purpose than to make your yard look nice, while hurting something like a dog is not OK?

I definitely have some cognitive dissonance here.

I eat meat and enjoy it, but lately I find myself questioning the morality of killing things and eating them. But oh well, I'll still eat that bacon.

If humans have souls, then doesn't a tarantula too? ? They aren't winning any beauty contests but they are conscious, intelligent living creatures all the same.

So, what, do we pick and choose which animals have souls judging by how furry and cute they are?

a reply to: generik

Really though how are we supposed to survive if we can't even harm plants?

The way I see its just nature to take other life to prolong your own, if your coming from the standpoint where damaging even plant life is immoral in some way then every living thing on the planet is at it, we're just doing it on a much bigger scale, because we're human we're doing everything on a bigger scale.

Think of everytime you shower how much germs and bacteria you are "killing" every step you take crushing what millions, billions? I dunno but if you go extreme over it theres no escaping it we're all in it. I can't think of anything that doesn't survive without taking some sort of "life".

Though we today have a system where its no longer a hunter/gathering scenario fending to survive. Its a buisness, a massive one, everyones gotta eat. So due to another part of human nature, greed, some people have gone to a point where at least I think anyway its unethical. We are enslaving animals, you've all seen some crazy videos of what goes on in some of those slaughterhouses and battery hens etc its horrifying, some of us empathise, can imagine if we where put in a scenario like that and to right because it is horrible. Yet last night I got some fried chicken in a take away and I can only imagine what that chicken went through before it was cut up and cooked so I could satisfy the munchies. I'll buy free range when in the supermarket but yeah ultimatley I just fund it to keep going all the same.

Saying that at least now we have free range as an option and more things like that are becoming available. I think its an idea gradually becoming more accepted as time goes on, people can justify eating animals, but not to the extent some people are doing it. Its abuse. Alot of people are waking up to that and slowly more options are becoming available to make that lifestyle easier for you. So its work in progress, I think or at least hope that in the future new rules will be introduced for animal rights which stops them being treated so cruel. Me personally though? I cannot say where we "draw the line" I just know its definatley been crossed.

a reply to: GoShredAK

We are very egocentric, even when we 'help' animals, we pity them instead of feeling guilty that we brought them to that point.
The animal kingdom has no winners in evolution, if we based it off survival then the insect and fish populations would be the 'best'. We are far to destructive right now to be the best. We can barely sustain our agriculture, and raising pigs, cows, etc has become almost like a production line, then at he individual and family level we take for granted all that hard work and complain about something like onions on our burger, or it was too filling and simply throw it away.

I've always had the thought that in secondary school there should be a class that all students take to teach real world skills, and educate through example and experience, such as mortgages, drugs and alcohol abuse, where our food comes from, etc. going on various field trips and what not.

I know when I finally get a decent plot of land I'll be going for sustainability and trying to live through the respect of mother nature, not only will it keep me busy but it's interesting, fun, and good for the environment.

It often just seems to me a question of what we identify with or not. Why do so many feel it is okay to eat a cow, but not a horse? A pig, but not a dog?

The attitude I often have a hard time empathizing with is one I run into often which tends to sort of value the life of animals more than humans. I know lots of people who are adamant against abuse or brutality directed against animals, but have no problem directing it towards humans. Some people I know say they love animals and hate humans!

I will eat animals, but find myself concerned with how they are treated in life and how they are killed.
This is partly, (I find through my own self analysis) is simply because I can relate to self sacrifice for others- if my death would save that of others, yeah, I'd do that. BUT, on the other hand, I find a repulsion to pain which is stronger than a repulsion to death.

A scene in "The Witches of Eastwick", in which Michelle Pfieffer describes her biggest fear not being death, but pain.
It was the most accurate expression of my own feelings on this.

So as a result, I suspect I project my own feelings upon plants and animals, as well as humans.
Even in terms of the death penalty- I think there may be cases in which a human can be judged to be so sick they cannot be expected to live in society and not be a threat to others, and it is just necessary to put them down (serial killers and such). But I think that should be done in humane ways, as painless and quick as possible.

a reply to: GoShredAK

I feel in my heart we have no business messing with wonderful creatures like Orcas and Dolphins

Orcas are just really big dolphins.

animals.nationalgeographic.com...

Orcas, or killer whales, are the largest of the dolphins

We all have to eat, but that doesn't mean we have to be cruel in our treatment of animals of rape the land to plant crops. Moderation.

a reply to: Bluesma

I wonder if you would consider putting an animal down for those same reasons you would a human, as an example what if a tiger killed, just hypothetically, 20 people. Do you think that the tiger should be executed or would you try to find another way around the situation?

If the latter is that because you believe humans are inhertingly more dangerous than other animals due to the principle they are more "aware" or what they are doing or how much pain they have truly caused?

Maybe that explains why alot of people say the prefer animals over humans, because in a way they're kinda better than us and couldn't nearly put as much harm on us as we could on them or each other.

originally posted by: TheUsersName
a reply to: Bluesma

I wonder if you would consider putting an animal down for those same reasons you would a human, as an example what if a tiger killed, just hypothetically, 20 people. Do you think that the tiger should be executed or would you try to find another way around the situation?

If the latter is that because you believe humans are inhertingly more dangerous than other animals due to the principle they are more "aware" or what they are doing or how much pain they have truly caused?

Maybe that explains why alot of people say the prefer animals over humans, because in a way they're kinda better than us and couldn't nearly put as much harm on us as we could on them or each other.

We already do that.
There is a famous story out of Africa about two female lions that picked off workers as they slept or while they were fetching water or just relaxing under a tree. The legend goes that up to about 130 people were killed.

The Tsavo man-eaters.

And there have been several cases of rouge elephants and tigers in India who go on rampages and extended hunts for humans that have been put down.

a reply to: strongfp

Woah crazy info thanks for the link.

I wasn't doubting things like that happened, I just couldn't think of any specifically, point still stand though.

130 people though?! That is way more than I thought it could of gone

Size and ickyness may play a role. If an 'ugly' insect is so tiny we can easily squish it (or a spider so 'yuck' that we don't catch every one and put it outside, and I'm guilty of that), then we think we 'are allowed' to kill it.

Author Robert Anton Wilson wrote, paraphrase, that only one in a thousand humans know that insects are people. He said we demean and insult insects by labeling them with names like 'bugs'.

As for plants, most vegans only eat seeds and not the whole plant, although they know that the entire plant was probably killed to obtain the seed. Gotta eat (or become fruitarian).

You choose to be Love and Goodness, advancing spirit and individual, who like the most caring and good parent, Mother and Father, values everyone as family and each child or extended family as if they are bigger than the universe, (they are), and worth more than everything in existence. And you work to free their minds and advance them to the next level.

You never give up on anyone and there shouldn't be money so all breakthroughs in science and medicine belong to all. What some call patents and ownership (which is a completely dark sided idea unless its personal home, belongings and space) is really gifts to humanity, for this our world, and humanity is our family.

As an advancing caring being, you value and caretake all the children and value all creatures great and small.

For me God draws the line.

Some animals were created by the Creator for food for mankind (clean meat, cows, chickens, tuna).

Some animals were created by the Creator as companions (pets) for mankind (dogs, cats, horses).

Some animals were created by the Creator as mortal warnings and can attack mankind if treated improperly (lion, tigers, bears).

Some animals were created by the Creator to serve ecological function in the environments of mankind (bottom feeders, bees, pigs etc).

No animals are "free moral agents" with the ability to think and design reasonable actions, that is a design found only in mankind, they operate via instinct and therefore are not human.

I do not define the animal kingdom in humane terms, it is illogical.

God Bless,

originally posted by: generik
a reply to: GoShredAK

Where does anyone draw the line? Is it brain size? Characteristics? Nerve endings? The presence or absence of pain? Who gets a soul? Who doesn't? (K-9s sure seem to have them)

i agree where do we draw the line. why is it OK to kill plants by some people, but not animals? Why is it ok to to harvest or hurt /damage (like cutting laws, trimming hedges etc) ridiculous amounts of plants, yet it gets touchy when animals are treated poorly? plants are just as alive as any animal, so why is it ok to not just kill plants to eat but to purposely maim them for no other purpose than to make your yard look nice, while hurting something like a dog is not OK?

I'm with ya, It seems like a status thing, a sign of wealth, "look how beautiful and well manicured my property is, I feel so good about myself"

My job has me going into the nicest homes in this town, and 99% of the time the wealthy are the most unhappy, they have this weird artificial happiness. Too much material I think.

At the same time 99% of your broke 9-5 paycheck to pay checkers (such as myself), are the most generous and genuinely happy to some level.

Not always though, I think it's getting worse too, as if our collective conscious or the Earth is depressed or something.........

Sorry I seem to start with one simple thought and it turns into a type of ramble.....working on that......anyway......

Thanks for the repy, I hope you have a positive day.

originally posted by: SensiblyReckless
I definitely have some cognitive dissonance here.

I eat meat and enjoy it, but lately I find myself questioning the morality of killing things and eating them. But oh well, I'll still eat that bacon.

If humans have souls, then doesn't a tarantula too? ? They aren't winning any beauty contests but they are conscious, intelligent living creatures all the same.

So, what, do we pick and choose which animals have souls judging by how furry and cute they are?

Well put. Kind of summarizes my funky OP. I had jalapeño stuffed bacon wrapped chicken the other night, it was delicous, but I'm really striving towards a more raw and plant (I know! I know! plants are living things too) based diet with very limited meat.

I try to save bugs when I can, minor arachnophobia aside.

I will just avoid the massive spiders thank you very much, I once had a huge cane spider moving full throttle towards my near bare foot, let's just say, he had to go.

Peace and Love, thanks for the contribution.

a reply to: GoShredAK

my opinion is that a lot of it comes from seeing yourself in whatever animal happens to be subject. i recall a line from "how to train your dragon" when hiccup explains that, in spite of his entire culture being oriented around dragon-slaying, he was unable to kill the dragon because he could see it was as frightened of dying as he was of killing. and i think that reflects the majority of the relationships we have with animals. if you like hurting animals, its because you yourself are hurting. and if you view animals as inferior, its because somewhere deep inside, you have an inferiority complex. someone somewhere made you feel small and you have never forgotten it. ever seen "marmaduke"? i really enjoyed the park scene and whole heartedly agree with the boss dude when he says we can tell a lot about people from how they treat their pets. if you want to know how you will get along with a person, take a look at how good a team they and their pets make.