Child Victims of Muslim Rape Gangs in the U.K.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
You for some reason refuse to acknowledge the two simple points that I have continually made here. I'll summarize for you again:

1. The issue here is child sexual abuse, rape, and slavery that must be prosecuted and prevented. Those who acted to cover these crimes up for 16 years should also be prosecuted, whether they did it to protect their town from embarrassment, for "PC" reasons, for whatever REASONS.

I acknowledged that and agreed with your statement. Quote me to show I refused to acknowledge that anywhere, you can't. Please refrain from inventing things about my position in this discussion.

2. The issue here is not the race or the religion of the perpetrators, because all races and all religions sadly commit these same crimes. Making it about the race and religion of the perpetrators (as the OP article did, as many here have done) besides merely being dishonest, diffuses the topic toward more stupid political rhetoric, and to my mind, dishonors the victims of these crimes.

If you're interested in discussion, discuss. If you wish to quibble, you'll be doing that on your own.

Quibble? Are you trying to set the parameters of debate in this OP now? My contribution has been on topic and factually based. I am offering information which could be relevant and I keep an open mind about everything. You however assert authoritatively that no cultural/ethnic group could ever be more likely to carry out acts that another cultural group may not. Here, I'll throw you an obvious example, I bet there's not a single white girl in Britain who has had her genitals mutilated against her will and against the law. That cultural/ethnicity based enough for you?

Back on topic, readers here may be aware of CEOP, the UK's National Crime Agency's Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre. In 2011 they published an executive summary Out of Mind, Out of Sight - Breaking down the barriers to understanding child sexual exploitation

2,379 individuals were reported to CEOP as being possible offenders in relation to street grooming and child sexual exploitation. 1,162 individuals were excluded from analysis due to a lack of any basic information about them. The remaining data was divided into two groups, according to the level and quality of information available. This information is sometimes based on a custody record where the precision of the record appears reliable, or on details provided by a victim where no offender has been identified.

...

Group one consisted of 940 individuals for whom a full name or initials were recorded. Group two consisted of 277 individuals for whom only a given name or alias was available.

...

Within the available dataset there was a significant difference between the groups. For groups one and two combined, the ethnicity of 38% of the offenders was unknown, 30% were white, 28% Asian 4 , 3% black and 0.16% Chinese. When only group one was analysed, the offenders were found to be 38% white, 32% unknown, 26% Asian, 3% Black, and 0.2% Chinese

Now CEOP are careful to say the recording of ethnicity has issues, indeed:

We do not draw national conclusions about ethnicity from the data available at this time because it is too inconsistent. Further research would be needed to examine whether the ethnic breakdown reflects issues that need to be addressed within a community context, local demographics of the areas from which data is drawn, an unconscious bias among agency responses or other factors that need to be explored

You will of course note the wording "Further research would be needed" but nowhere in the report does CEOP state they conclude that ethnicity is not an issue to be considered. Now if the National Crime Agency is not prepared to say that there is no link between offending and ethnicity, I wonder how you can be so sure with your own assertions?

Oh, the 2011 UK Census recorded 4.9% of the population as "Asian" yet CEOP's national list of offenders (where the identity was known and/or victim supplied information) showed 26% Asian committing these crimes.
I make no assertions in this, I am providing information and keeping an open mind, just like CEOP, who curiously do not share your "Definitely no cultural/ethnicity link at all, ever" stance.

You got any reports or studies which back up your assertions?

a reply to: grainofsand

Could that poll be skewed to fit a narrative?




26% of the Asian community commiting crime...

Or...

26% of the crime was committed by Asians?


That could just as easily be a similar number to the 4.9% but just a hell of a lot more crime committed by that small number...


Which doesn't change much...
It's still being committed...




It's hard to convey with text...
I'll try to reword that...



26% of the Asian community committed crime...

Or...

5(?)% of Asians committed 26% of crimes...



Numbers can easily be skewed with polls.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs
I get what you're saying Charlie, but it was an investigation by CEOP, not a mere poll.
It does not say there is an ethnic/cultural link, but it doesn't say there is not either, just that further research would be needed. It is pretty clear that the figures they published relate to the ethnic groups shown in percentages of the total offenders investigated.
I am keeping an open mind because cultural/ethnicities can make a difference in some crimes. I refer you back to my comment on female genital mutilation in the UK, I bet there's not a single white girl in the country who has been abused in this manner. Perhaps you think differently?

a reply to: grainofsand

No I actually agree with you FGM is most likely predominant among the Egyptian or Somalian community in the UK...

That needs to be stopped immediately along with cases like Rotherham.




The only reason I asked, was because it could be interpreted two ways...

It doesn't really matter if the number is fully 26% of the community or 26% of crime committed by people of the Asian community...

What matters is the type of crime overall...

Things like Rotherham definitely take precedent over muggings or burglary in my opinion...

Deal with the heinous first, work the way down from there.

a reply to: grainofsand

And here you were saying that you "only provided a link" ...

Am I setting the parameters of a debate that I'll participate in? Darn right. I generally have no interest in the immature quote-and-paste tactics that you used in the post I responded as such in. Since that seems to be the only way you communicate though, see below.

Other than that, I will start by saying, "Physician, heal thyself:"

Stop the attempt to put words in my mouth. I'll do the same.

Cease trying to change the parameters of the debate. I'll do the same.

Oh, and please, spare all of us the theatrics and pomposity, and I'll strive to do the same.

Deal?

Good:

originally posted by: grainofsand
You however assert authoritatively that no cultural/ethnic group could ever be more likely to carry out acts that another cultural group may not.

That's a lie. Quote me. I have stated variations on the idea that child sexual abuse, rape and slavery happens in all religious, ethnic, political and cultural groups. Can you prove otherwise?

originally posted by: grainofsand
Here, I'll throw you an obvious example, I bet there's not a single white girl in Britain who has had her genitals mutilated against her will and against the law. That cultural/ethnicity based enough for you?

More empty rhetoric. You have no evidence regarding how many total persons of any race in Britain have had their genitals mutilated against their will. More supposition and belief presented as fact. Think about it, by the nature of acts of that nature, how many would not report or reveal such violence? On the other hand, if you're really interested in the subject, perhaps you should check out some of the history of the Punk Movement in general and certain sexual fetish groups in particular before you make such wild generalization that you have no back up for ... you will find white girls, brown girls, Christian girls, Muslim girls, white boys, brown boys, Christian boys, Muslim boys, etc. Again, not a matter of race.

originally posted by: grainofsand
You will of course note the wording "Further research would be needed" but nowhere in the report does CEOP state they conclude that ethnicity is not an issue to be considered. Now if the National Crime Agency is not prepared to say that there is no link between offending and ethnicity, I wonder how you can be so sure with your own assertions?

Oh, the 2011 UK Census recorded 4.9% of the population as "Asian" yet CEOP's national list of offenders (where the identity was known and/or victim supplied information) showed 26% Asian committing these crimes.
I make no assertions in this, I am providing information and keeping an open mind, just like CEOP, who curiously do not share your "Definitely no cultural/ethnicity link at all, ever" stance.

You got any reports or studies which back up your assertions?

Your quoted CEOP results, sadly, verify what I keep saying: sexual abuse happens in every racial group.

You want to focus on race or ethnic group, I want to focus on the crime.

You're again determined to put words in my mouth: have I ever said there is no link between offending and ethnicity?

You are taking the objective results that you're referring to and stating a conclusion that the results do not make, and that the CEOP SPECIFICALLY STATES does not exist. In your own quote!

Why doesn't the CEOP report compare their results with a per capita analysis of the population as you are trying to do?

Because they're focused on the crimes and preventing them, not primarily who's committing them.

Your quoted stats say what I've been saying all along: every ethnicity/racial group has perpetrators of these crimes!

I don't need any other stats ... your's just proved exactly what I am saying!

My responses in this thread were an argument against the multiple claims in the slanted OP article and many responses here that these kinds of attacks only existed in the "Asian" community or the Muslim community. I am not defending the rat bastages that did these crimes, nor the ones that covered them up. There is no more appalling crime to me than sexual and violent abuse of children, adults, the elderly ... anyone.

Unless you come up with some different argument, you and I are done. Cheers, and try reading what I say rather than reading into it, next time!

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
Deal with the heinous first, work the way down from there.

Agencies are trying to do both 'deal with the heinous' and investigate for links to cultural/ethnic contributing factors regarding these crimes.
Do you really not understand that Asians make up 4.11% of the UK population, and made up 26% of all the sexual exploitation offenders they knew about nationally? The figure is obviously disproportionately high, the question is still why though.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Unless you come up with some different argument, you and I are done.

That pleases me.
I am of course open to any mature, objective debate with the many other readers of this forum though.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Yeah, Charlie ... do you not realize that some child abuse is more important than others based on the color or the creed of the cretin who did it???

Wow, how can you not get that???

How can you think it's a horrible, heinous disgusting crime WHENEVER IT HAPPENS AND WHOEVER DOES IT???

/rampantsarc

Yes I especially agreed with this:

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: grainofsand

No I actually agree with you FGM is most likely predominant among the Egyptian or Somalian community in the UK...

That needs to be stopped immediately along with cases like Rotherham.

a reply to: grainofsand

I understand very well...

I understand that 26% of crime committed by Asians in no way equates to 26% of Asians committing crime.



There is a subtle difference in the two...

Very easy to manipulate people with.

a reply to: Gryphon66

LoL no doubt Gryphon...

I stated as much on page one...


It didn't set a trend for the thread, rather it turned people rabid on a witch hunt for Pakistani Muslims...

Some even outright denying there was other ethnicities involved...
& outright denying that Muslim girls were also abused...



I know who has read the report as opposed to the Faily Fail...



& the irony is these people are complaining about a cover up but don't want to discuss the Whiteys involved...

LoLage!

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Or said another way,

More Asians committing a certain crime does not mean all Asians commit a certain crime or that a certain crime is acceptable to all Asians.

Asians can be replaced with any social, religious, cultural, political, or ethnic distinction.

Absolute statements are always absolutely untrue.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs
who is trying to be subtle and slippery with the figures? Not me.
The National Crime agency investigated around a thousand child exploitation offenders and published a report that 26% of them were Asian.
Asians make up 4.11% of the UK population.
You may not like it, neither do I, but this hasn't been 'spun' in any way, and until it is investigated further the question of why still remains.

a reply to: grainofsand

Yes and the point I'm trying to make is that while 26% were Asian we have no way of determining how many in the Asian community make up that percentage...


For example...

Let's say 2000 cases are attributed to Asians...
Let's say that makes up the 26% of vile crime committed...

Who is to say if 100% of those were commited by by 10 groups of 20 men...

So if hypothetically 200 Asian men assaulted and average of 10 girls each over a 15 year period...
Creating that 26% of vile crimes committed...


What is the percentage of that 4.9% (just over 3 million) of Asians that actually committed these crimes?

It is not even close to 26%...



The narrative espouses that over a quarter of the Asian community is some sort of sex offender...
That's the picture it paints with such statistics...


It's misleading.

The question why does still remain...
In both senses!

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs
No Charlie, they investigated almost a thousand different named offenders based on custody records and victim testimony. Of those thousand individual offenders, 26% were recorded as Asian.
It appears you are trying to spin things differently, perhaps you have an agenda? I don't, I'm just reporting a published investigation by the National Crime Agency from 2011.

a reply to: grainofsand

I just read the report and it says no such thing that you are portraying...


It says 26% were Asian offenders...
Not 26% of the entire Asian community...


It also says 38% were White...
Not 38% of the entire White community...


It also makes no comparison to scrutinise over repeat offenders...


You're twisting this, not me...
You have the agenda, not me...



You're trying to say that 750,000 (26% of the 4.9% whole) were under investigation...

When it clearly states the whole 100% of offenders investigated were numbered at 2379...




You clearly do not understand what has been reported in the report you're pushing....

& you claim I have an agenda?

Please.
Do some advanced mathematics before you espouse nonsense.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: grainofsand

I just read the report and it says no such thing that you are portraying...


It says 26% were Asian offenders...
Not 26% of the entire Asian community...


It also says 38% were White...
Not 38% of the entire White community...


It also makes no comparison to scrutinise over repeat offenders...


You're twisting this, not me...
You have the agenda, not me...



You're trying to say that 750,000 (26% of the 4.9% whole) were under investigation...

When it clearly states the whole 100% of offenders investigated were numbered at 2379...




You clearly do not understand what has been reported in the report you're pushing....

& you claim I have an agenda?

Please.
Do some advanced mathematics before you espouse nonsense.

Charlie I did not say 26% of the Asian community, take back that blatant lie or misunderstanding and directly quote me.
My interpretation of the figures is correct and I explained it in simple language, you are mistaken.
Try again. Perhaps quote the publication as well as your assertions about the figures. I did and I am correct.

a reply to: grainofsand

Well it may be a misunderstanding but there an only be two reasons why you keep equating 26% of crime to a 4.9% whole...
And you have far from explained you position...
Simply or otherwise...

On the contrary you haven't elaborated on your equation in the slightest...


Either...

1) You are claiming that more Asians are sex offenders than anyone else...

In which case I'm calling out the BS...

Or...

2) You are claiming that the repeat offenders in the Asian community are more brazen and active than other ethnicities...

In which case that is what I have said from the beginning...




You need to be more clear in which you are espousing to avoid confusion...

Because when you keep linking 4.9% to 26%, without the mention of repeat offenders in the slightest...

The only deducible conclusion is that you're promoting No.1...

Which is patently false and misleading.


Thus, that has been my entire point since I first replied to you.

As in most sex crimes Im sure most of the offenders are serial offenders, the stat does not address that point.
The whole thing is very ugly..life in prison and/or castration for any rapist..if it was my show to run.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs
No Charlie, I have explained my position quite clearly, that it is important to investigate the possibility of cultural influence in any crimes. In this case it is child sexual exploitation. The National Crime Agency investigation found that out of almost 1000 offenders 26% were recorded by police figures as Asian. If the percentage was closer to 4.11% (the percentage of Asian people in the UK) then it would not be considered an issue, but 26% is disproportionately high.
Even if you argue multiple offences as you do then it is still a question why such prolific multiple offenders would be so high in the Asian community to skew the figures.
I keep an open mind, and I await further investigation before I can hold judgement, I do not say that Asian people commit a disproportionate amount of sexual exploitation crime, but you seem to be saying they don't. May I ask what study you can refer me to which supports your claims?