Non-Extraterrestrial UFO Hypotheses

(continuing


One of the things that was helpful to me during the 'weird' times in my life was that I met this woman online who lived in New York (I was in southern coastal California) that I had a lot in common with 'experientially'. We had such an amazing correlation of experience -- past things we shared, and current things. There is some stuff that is frankly so bizarre that nobody, NOBODY would ever believe it, and in fact, some things you can't even really communicate about, because you have to stretch words/meanings in new ways, and language is a "shared experience" thing and nobody who hadn't HAD the experience could ever know what you meant and the words you must use would actually be sort of misleading. And yet someone who HAD -- you'd both know immediately you were talking about the same thing, just by the particular choice or pattern of words. We had that.

This actually was so profound that eventually, since one of our shared experiences was this odd thing of "downloads" (as if something were downloading into us. I always thought if I woke up speaking Etruscan, I'd really have some proof on this), I eventually started seriously thinking (truly seriously) that we were sharing the SAME experience at times. I don't mean psychically. I don't mean something similar. I mean the same like maybe if you could put an experience into a needle injection and give it to someone, once they 'had' it in their body, from first person perspective, it would be 'theirs.' But it could be the identical experience in every way for everyone who got the injection. If you see what I mean. I'm not saying there WAS an injection, I'm just using that as the only possible model my tiny little brain could come up with for modeling this ineffable gut-sense of what seemed like it was, at least in some cases, going on with us. Only a few times.

But she also had a lot of the same paranormal crap I did, and the same kind of dreams I was having at night sometimes, and yet some of the ufo-ish stuff too, and the wide-awake paranormal stuff in the day. There were some other people we found overlap with, just a little, sometimes in other areas.

It helped that someone else who was very rational, she was frankly far more intelligent and credentialed in the real-world than myself, would often say something that was so much like my experience (sometimes word-for-word, but usually just 'similar') it was incredible, and she seemed sane and successful in life -- I was really fighting to stay grounded and rational and find some sense of, if not validation, at least psychological explanation for this stuff. (Mostly, to figure out why I would choose such an embarrassingly stupid genre to express problem psychology through, if that was the explanation.)

On one hand I avoided books and shows and such, with very rare exceptions, because I was terrified of invalidating myself even more, and I knew no experience would be 'allowed to mean anything' to me if I'd been exposed to it from another source first. On the other hand I was talking to people (mostly via Compuserve) and damn it, we had such overlap in our "private experiences," many from long before when we had not shared it with anyone, that it seemed impossible at first, and then seemed like some obviously way bigger thing going on that weirdly, nobody was paying attention to. And if you tried to tell others, nobody would believe.

originally posted by: lostgirl
a reply to: Tangerine

In the Bluebook cases I've read, if the experiencer 'believes in' UFOs, their reliability is questioned!

Bluebook was a government project. We're talking about UFO groups. You're completely missing the point which is that those groups do not record seeming non-UFO anomalous experiences reported by people who also report UFO encounters/sightings nor do they ask about those experiences.

You didn't ask me but I would strongly suggest that you avoid "playing" with tarot cards. I get the impression that you think going down the rabbit hole is fun. It's not. You have a WIccan background and Wicca traditionally paints a twinkly happy bunny face on this sort of stuff. It's nothing of the sort. If you dance with the trickster you'll wish that you hadn't.

originally posted by: lostgirl
a reply to: Tangerine

In the Bluebook cases I've read, if the experiencer 'believes in' UFOs, their reliability is questioned!

That is kind of odd. Lets say I saw God once. If I believe in God, then my reliability as a witness to God should be questioned? If I don't believe in God and said I talked to God then don't I believe in God? If I didn't believe in God then I would just say that I had a strange hallucination and there would really be nothing to talk about.

So lets say I don't believe in UFOs as in alien space vehicles. If I say I saw a UFO and describe it as an alien space ship, I am a better witness? Obviously, you would have to believe in UFOs in order to report something to MUFON. I mean, how else would you know about MUFON? If I ever see an alien space ship, my first trip is to a neurologist, not MUFON! So I would make an incredibly reliable witness since I would write off any sighting as a symptom of a brain tumor?

Bluebook was at an interesting time period. One thing that is overlooked is where psychology was at that time. There was a category for "crackpot" cases. So I suppose everyone here would be considered a crackpot back in the day. That they even used the word "crackpot" ....

originally posted by: lostgirl
do you think that's safe?
Because they are the most beautiful tarot cards I've ever seen...and the archetypal images are portrayed in a way that is just so 'me', that it really 'feels' as if they were 'meant' for me...

How else does the universe speak to the inner part of us except via beauty and a sense of bliss and truth?

I have been working with the tarot as archetypes, and I mean they are Aeons of the Universe -- gods, little g, actually sort of a big g but not THE big G lol -- for many years, and in my model, you see, this is -- oh heck. Let me start over:

Pretend this doesn't sound like I'm standing behind a podium, there's just no other way for me to say it than just to sort of lay it out like a boring lecture everyone is sure to sleep through LOL. (P.S. I turn 50 this September.)

The universe is one tiny instance of infinite awareness. Way up the line, skipping tons of big steps here, we have a spectrum of energy that makes up the full 'potential' of 'our' 'universe.' Because it is inherently 'aware' (with various groupings that create and overlap infinitey; self-aware and even autonomous 'identity'), you can divide it up however you like. But, the universe itself has an inherent pattern to it much like fractals as math formulas have patterns.

One common pattern, that has some variation that is no big deal, is a division into about 78 pieces. Each of those pieces is a VAST amount of energy. These are not separate like dividing up a pie. They are all inherently, infinitely woven together and having a relationship with each other. They are all 'pervasively' through our universe because their weave is what our universe IS. They live 'through' 'us' literally -- we are OF them -- because we, and frogs and trees and planets, are composed of the complex tapestry of that universe of energy.

Tarot cards are like HI MY NAME IS JACK nametags, or maps of the territory. The nametags... are not the tarot. The map... is not the territory. Those powerful energy conglomerates are not only real but fundamentally underlie everything that 'is,' they ARE what 'is', there is nothing that is not of them (though there are infinite combinations of them in smaller, different kaleidoscope patterns, for our novelty enjoyment I guess).

When you are feeling irritated by work and yet, drawn to that lovely little painting for some reason, it's not just biochemistry (that's just swirling bundles of energy particles), it's the play of energy and its relationships that goes on in your reality and in your body. You can learn to recognize some of it (astrology has similarities, for good reason, it's part of the larger pattern). You can work with a given tarot to change your relationship with the energy, which is like: you are a kaleidoscope; the turn of the wheel is your focus; the creative pattern-picture that results is your reality/self. All the different colored and differently shaped pieces are the tarot. They can be seen together and blend for a new color. They can stack and combine for seemingly different shapes. If you want a different pattern, you work with their energy, and it helps you turn the wheel a little and 'shakes up' the energy to allow it, with your new focus and 'harmony', to come into a new pattern, one you are more comfortable with.

They function as guides too and, once you have a good relationship with them, are surprisingly... er, accessible.

So getting to the point, finally: it doesn't matter what the nametags look like. It is probably best, for your harmonious interaction with the underlying energy that manifests us all, if you choose something that draws you (I am a Thoth tarot fan), simply because a degree of respect and appreciation and even sheer enjoyment is the best way to frame anything.

The only thing the nametag (the cards) can really affect is your own focus. If a painting of a tarot frightened you, and you let that 'filter or frame' your relationship with that archetype (for lack of a better term), that wouldn't be good. But if you were truly working with the energies positively in some fashion, you'd probably work through it anyway. Plenty of archs have scared the crap out of me early on and as we got aligned, all that took care of itself.

RC

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

originally posted by: lostgirl
a reply to: Tangerine

In the Bluebook cases I've read, if the experiencer 'believes in' UFOs, their reliability is questioned!

That is kind of odd. Lets say I saw God once. If I believe in God, then my reliability as a witness to God should be questioned? If I don't believe in God and said I talked to God then don't I believe in God? If I didn't believe in God then I would just say that I had a strange hallucination and there would really be nothing to talk about.

So lets say I don't believe in UFOs as in alien space vehicles. If I say I saw a UFO and describe it as an alien space ship, I am a better witness? Obviously, you would have to believe in UFOs in order to report something to MUFON. I mean, how else would you know about MUFON? If I ever see an alien space ship, my first trip is to a neurologist, not MUFON! So I would make an incredibly reliable witness since I would write off any sighting as a symptom of a brain tumor?

Bluebook was at an interesting time period. One thing that is overlooked is where psychology was at that time. There was a category for "crackpot" cases. So I suppose everyone here would be considered a crackpot back in the day. That they even used the word "crackpot" ....

You're missing the point,too. The discussion was about UFO groups' lack of interest in any anomalous experience that they can't cram into the ET hypothesis. Bluebook has been rehashed to death. So have ETs.

Let's get back on topic discussing non-physical, non-ET hypotheses for UFOs and other related anomalous phenomena.

Tangerine is a cranky orange tonight!

And also:

originally posted by: Tangerine
It's nothing of the sort. If you dance with the trickster you'll wish that you hadn't.

You know what this reminds me of? And this is a fuzzy memory I'm sure to screw up, so apologies in advance:

In the movie 'Interview with the Vampire,' Brad's all, OH THE ANGST OF IT, and then all the sudden there's Tom in the car at the very end, saying something like, "Is he still WHINING?!"

ROFL! It was like in 3 seconds they COMPLETELY REFRAMED the entire tenor and nature of that energy and I realized, OMG it's so true! It's like 2 hours sucked into the heavy drama of it only to realize, for godssakes, live a little! Gee whiz you're basically immortal and powerful and the world is your oyster -- yes, ooh ahh need more whining!

Too much angst :-) -- life belongs to us.

This is the thing about "individuation" which is getting to know yourself which is getting to know the universe because they are not actually separate things, only separate perspectives.

Of course it's a little dangerous and sometimes can be terrifying. So is learning to drive. So is driving in Dallas or Los Angeles. So is learning to ski, let alone choosing to work Ski Rescue.

People become Navy SEALs, why the hell does anybody sane do that -- they don't, the people who choose that are incredibly focused individuals who want that-line-of-energy more than they want anything else, including a more sane, "reasonable" life that might be at least a little bit longer and calmer and less spend-the-next-40-years-paying-on-many-levels for it if you survive. And that's who they are, and it's a wild and intense path but that is how they choose to shape themselves and their futures, and the rest of us can only watch in have-to-admit-I'm-impressed awe about it. Would I think anybody had the right to 'ask' a man to do that job for TWO minutes? No way. Would I deprive them of the opportunity to do that if they chose to? No way.

Many seemingly normal things like marrying or having kids takes courage too frankly, of a different kind I imagine, but the bottom line is that people do stuff that is scary, that is a little dangerous, that is a "far bigger dramatic walk on the wild side than they ever dreamed" all the time.

And those are the things that give us the opportunity to be who we become. Yes, they're also an opportunity to eat dirt and bleed and possibly leave here face-down in the mud, in various forms depending on the path, but nearly all opportunity is risk and as the saying goes, "All progress is made by the unreasonable man."

The reasonable man is sitting at home with the remote control, agreeing with people. It's only the stubborn sorts who push and insist on their vision despite it contradicts the status-quo around them, that change things, that move the world along.

Wiccans ARE often the soft-side of the magick world I agree (not always!) but that is lovely about them. The focus on love-light-good-healing does not preclude that a person might have the courage to get to know even the deeper, darker parts of themselves, if genuine exploration is their goal. I wouldn't keep them from it and I wouldn't want to encourage them to frame it in any negative fashion, that only filters things toward that and gives it more power.

I never went into anything with a gunbelt, so to speak. I fell into everything with a blissfully stupid wow-what's-that! look on my face and either because I was a fool or because I always had genuinely GOOD INTENT -- the universe has been, mostly, kind and helpful to me.

Except when it hasn't been, lol. But I have survived that and there is a large spectrum of larger-self and more that can help me in those situations. Most situations of which turn out to be of my own making, my own ignorance or bias, my bringing it on when, had I not been impatient or irreverent, would have gone very differently (better).

I don't worry about the trickster energy of the universe. I see individuation, certainly to include tarot/astrology/archetype work -- my primary focus the last couple decades -- as a fabulous opportunity, challenge, something that is a GOOD thing even when it hurts, even when it's scary. God (big-G) is with me, I always felt, and much of me is a spectrum between me and that in infinite identity-variation and they're with me too. It's like my own ski-rescue story and I'm always princess of earth, 4th of 4, service and loyalty, and 'Adjustment' -- it's-all-about-ME in the middle.

If I were to spend even an hour actually thinking about tarot/universe as if it was a dark and scary and dangerous thing, I'd probably be getting my ass kicked both here and in the astral within 24 hours.

One thing I had to do a lot in my weirder days was intentionally, with great focus, pull my head out of the dark-spinning-confused-paranoia that a lot of the experiences brought on. "Fear is the mind killer." (Dune)

"You get what you concentrate upon. There is no other rule." (Seth)

Think good thoughts. Happy sparkly ones. You know, like the Wiccans. LOLOL

RC

You didn't ask me but I would strongly suggest that you avoid "playing" with tarot cards. I get the impression that you think going down the rabbit hole is fun. It's not. You have a WIccan background and Wicca traditionally paints a twinkly happy bunny face on this sort of stuff. It's nothing of the sort. If you dance with the trickster you'll wish that you hadn't.

a reply to: Tangerine

I am only replying to you because I couldn't star you twice. It is not fun at all and you definitely don't want to dance with the trickster. I like how you said that.

You're completely missing the point which is that those groups do not record seeming non-UFO anomalous experiences reported by people who also report UFO encounters/sightings nor do they ask about those experiences.

That was a really big point in all Vallee's books that the data collected was not complete. If the data did not agree with the researcher's beliefs it was left out. That is no way to do a scientific study and that is why Dr.Vallee did the work that he did. He collected all those crazy otherworldly details to these things that other researchers just left out because they didn't support the ETH. You can't analyze a phenomenon like this without looking at all the data.

originally posted by: Tangerine

Bluebook was a government project. We're talking about UFO groups. You're completely missing the point which is that those groups do not record seeming non-UFO anomalous experiences reported by people who also report UFO encounters/sightings nor do they ask about those experiences.

Actually I did not miss the point - my comment was meant as a comparison of the ridiculousness of two top UFO investigative 'agencies' being so close-minded about the people whose experiences they're supposed to be 'objectively' investigating...

You didn't ask me but I would strongly suggest that you avoid "playing" with tarot cards. I get the impression that you think going down the rabbit hole is fun. It's not. You have a WIccan background and Wicca traditionally paints a twinkly happy bunny face on this sort of stuff. It's nothing of the sort. If you dance with the trickster you'll wish that you hadn't.

I definitely do not "think going down the rabbit hole is fun", at least not since reading people's experiences on this thread...
...But at least back in my 'curious' years, I was cautious enough to go with the "twinkly happy bunny face" of Wicca, rather than the 'door opening', Babylon summoning of Enochian...

I would be interested to know if you ( or someone you know) experienced something negative related to tarot cards?

Do you think the I-Ching is just as bad? Because I use my cards as a tool for self 'awareness' similar to the I-Ching...

- Tangerine, I don't know why you responded to me in such a harsh way (perhaps you didn't mean to 'draw tears', but it did hurt) - if I've offended you, I'm sorry - if you're unhappy with my contributions to the thread, I'll stop posting...

originally posted by: lostgirl

originally posted by: Tangerine

Bluebook was a government project. We're talking about UFO groups. You're completely missing the point which is that those groups do not record seeming non-UFO anomalous experiences reported by people who also report UFO encounters/sightings nor do they ask about those experiences.

Actually I did not miss the point - my comment was meant as a comparison of the ridiculousness of two top UFO investigative 'agencies' being so close-minded about the people whose experiences they're supposed to be 'objectively' investigating...

You didn't ask me but I would strongly suggest that you avoid "playing" with tarot cards. I get the impression that you think going down the rabbit hole is fun. It's not. You have a WIccan background and Wicca traditionally paints a twinkly happy bunny face on this sort of stuff. It's nothing of the sort. If you dance with the trickster you'll wish that you hadn't.

I definitely do not "think going down the rabbit hole is fun", at least not since reading people's experiences on this thread...
...But at least back in my 'curious' years, I was cautious enough to go with the "twinkly happy bunny face" of Wicca, rather than the 'door opening', Babylon summoning of Enochian...

I would be interested to know if you ( or someone you know) experienced something negative related to tarot cards?

Do you think the I-Ching is just as bad? Because I use my cards as a tool for self 'awareness' similar to the I-Ching...

- Tangerine, I don't know why you responded to me in such a harsh way (perhaps you didn't mean to 'draw tears', but it did hurt) - if I've offended you, I'm sorry - if you're unhappy with my contributions to the thread, I'll stop posting...

I'm trying to keep the thread on-topic. The topic is non-physical non-ET hypotheses about UFOs and related anomalous phenomena. I see you trying to turn this into an advice column and that's not what it is. Of course I welcome your contributions that are on topic just like I welcome everyone else's contributions.

a reply to: lostgirl

Do you think the I-Ching is just as bad? Because I use my cards as a tool for self 'awareness' similar to the I-Ching...

Just because you wanted an answer, yes, this stuff is all the same. If you call it 'bad' then it is bad. How you see it is how it is. I personally would not get involved in anything of that nature that I did not understand completely, but I know that we curious people will play around with things when we find them rather than waiting to study them first. I know as a youngster I did, and I have paid for it for 40 years.

To OP, sorry for taking this thread off topic, I know you were trying to keep it on the subject of non-ET hypothesis of UFOs and all, but I think it's all related.

a reply to: Tangerine

You're missing the point,too. The discussion was about UFO groups' lack of interest in any anomalous experience that they can't cram into the ET hypothesis. Bluebook has been rehashed to death. So have ETs.

Let's get back on topic discussing non-ET hypotheses for UFOs and other related anomalous phenomena.

That's where I was going...the model that dominates the phenomenon today comes directly from Project Bluebook! and the thinking hasn't changed much. The cases that "we" consider anomalous today would have been considered "crackpot" cases back in the day. The commonalities that that run through it all is overlooked. They cant get passed the nuts and bolts of it all when the nuts and bolts are just as hallucinatory or anomalous as anything else. The way that is compensated? alien technology of course!

So, I think, it all ties in. The whole idea that the "UFO groups" (and bluebook was essentially an early version of MUFON) are interested in someone's propensity to believe in aliens is silly. Its like a feigned attempt at weeding out the crackpots. Of course anyone reporting to UFO groups already believes in UFOs. But back in the bluebook days, I think the government was looking for Russian spy planes, not aliens. They just milked the idea from the public interest of the time. If everyone is already looking up in the sky for flying saucers, why not take advantage?

and to your original point.

As far as I know, it's not only not asked by MUFON, if an experiencer mentions it, it's excluded from the report or the experiencer is regarded as unreliable.

Yes, they would be considered crackpots if they mention anything other than something that sounds "alien". To RC's point about occult vs. alien....whats the difference?

This is why this whole mentality exists around the forum. "Everyone must be idiots" or "I guess they were all hallucinating" or "they must all be crazy" either that OR what they saw was REAL ALIENZ! So what this thread represents to me is that, no, you don't have to be a mentally unstable nutcase to experience weird shi#! absolutely not. The folks participating here are incredibly lucid. are they not?

So I think we are still on the same page

First - thank you for 'sticking up for me', it's nice to be understood...

originally posted by: RedCairo
I don't worry about the trickster energy of the universe. I see individuation, certainly to include tarot/astrology/archetype work -- my primary focus the last couple decades -- as a fabulous opportunity, challenge, something that is a GOOD thing even when it hurts, even when it's scary. God (big-G) is with me, I always felt, and much of me is a spectrum between me and that in infinite identity-variation and they're with me too. It's like my own ski-rescue story and I'm always princess of earth, 4th of 4, service and loyalty, and 'Adjustment' -- it's-all-about-ME in the middle.

Second - I would like to hear more about the above (in a PM would be best), if you find some time and feel like 'expounding'...

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

The problem is that it's a rehash of the problem with ufology and not a discussion of non-physical, non-ET hypotheses. Most of us, myself included, have been guilty of that rehashing. Unfortunately, it doesn't move us forward.

originally posted by: Tangerine

I'm trying to keep the thread on-topic. The topic is non-physical non-ET hypotheses about UFOs and related anomalous phenomena. I see you trying to turn this into an advice column and that's not what it is.

I'm sorry that you are seeing my requests for information as an agenda for seeking "advice"...I actually thought that posts regarding the 'tools' which people use in attempting to 'interact' with "anomalous phenomena" would be considered on topic.
And I thought the questions I asked - being related to the 'nature' (safe? bad?) of the use of those tools - would elicit answers that might be of interest to others following the thread...
...while also bringing into discussion the 'sub'topic of "anomalous phenomena" which have been experienced as benevolent...

As I seem to be lacking judgement as to pertinence in posting, I'll just stick to reading from here on...

originally posted by: Tangerine
a reply to: ZetaRediculian

The problem is that it's a rehash of the problem with ufology and not a discussion of non-physical, non-ET hypotheses. Most of us, myself included, have been guilty of that rehashing. Unfortunately, it doesn't move us forward.

I get where you are coming from but I think there are some good points to be made yet. Can we talk about Ying without talking about Yang? Every discussion that is pro ET talks about how its NOT something else. Are we better than that? sure, but I don't see how to avoid the "other" topic altogether. This is the NON-ET thread where ET is not involved with UFOs and that includes how they were not involved with bluebook too.

The dismantling of the ETH is paramount. Its the whole ET mythology that has been intricately weaved here that is locked in some sort of feedback loop that needs to be examined. its an entity of its own.

One of the issues I see that keeps things from moving forward with the "non physical" idea is the perception that you must be mentally ill or even have a parasite or something because "something" must make people experience these things. Its the idea that people aren't well. And as much as I have no idea what people are talking about half the time here, they aren't unhealthy at all. That's a message that needs to be broadcasted to the forum in general.

a reply to: lostgirl

I can understand why you might consider those questions to be on-topic.

I guess my real concern is that you seem to want to uncork a bottle without knowing what's in it, having absolutely no control over what you get and being unable to re-cork the bottle. As others have pointed out, it doesn't matter which bottle you select. This isn't the sort of adventure you can call off (or, even if you technically can, you won't know how). I don't know if you've done so, but read John Keel's Mothman Prophecies. Keel was a very experienced investigator of strange phenomena yet he feared losing his mind. I do understand your curiosity but think of it as wanting to see a grizzly bear in the wild. Cool up to the point that the grizzly bear turns on you. Not cool after that. No gun. No getaway car. No rescue party. Just you alone with the grizzly bear in the dark. However, if you're really up for that very real possibility, go for it. I don't want you to stop posting. Really. I'm sorry if it came off that way.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

I understand where you're coming from. Let me explain that I'm going to a UFO Meet-up tomorrow where I anticipate not being allowed to participate in the "experiencers" group because I don't accept the ET hypothesis and don't believe I have been abducted. This has put me in a pretty pissy mood and for that I apologize to all. There are several interesting people in that group with whom I'd like to brainstorm but the organizer is a MUFON field investigator determined to cram ET down our throats. She's gone so far as to convince a malleable person that an anomalous experience she had that didn't involve anything remotely UFO-like was an abduction by aliens (yes, I know it's all interconnected but you get my point). If there's one thing I'm not, it's malleable. Anyway, I hope that this thread will lead to some serious brainstorming.

a reply to: Tangerine

There are several interesting people in that group with whom I'd like to brainstorm but the organizer is a MUFON field investigator determined to cram ET down our throats. She's gone so far as to convince a malleable person that an anomalous experience she had that didn't involve anything remotely UFO-like was an abduction by aliens (yes, I know it's all interconnected but you get my point). If there's one thing I'm not, it's malleable.

You are getting me worked up now too. I honestly don't think I could take it. If you do proclaim your Non ET beliefs, do record it. I want to hear all the gasps.

Anyway, I hope that this thread will lead to some serious brainstorming.

It has led to something. Personally, I think all the paranormal talk is fascinating. It's really not my thing but I am thinking there is definitely a common thread with some of the stuff I brought up and everything else being discussed. I just cant quite articulate it yet.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: Tangerine

There are several interesting people in that group with whom I'd like to brainstorm but the organizer is a MUFON field investigator determined to cram ET down our throats. She's gone so far as to convince a malleable person that an anomalous experience she had that didn't involve anything remotely UFO-like was an abduction by aliens (yes, I know it's all interconnected but you get my point). If there's one thing I'm not, it's malleable.

You are getting me worked up now too. I honestly don't think I could take it. If you do proclaim your Non ET beliefs, do record it. I want to hear all the gasps.

Anyway, I hope that this thread will lead to some serious brainstorming.

It has led to something. Personally, I think all the paranormal talk is fascinating. It's really not my thing but I am thinking there is definitely a common thread with some of the stuff I brought up and everything else being discussed. I just cant quite articulate it yet.

I've already brought up my preferences for including discussion of non-ET hypotheses (and not even to the exclusion of ET!) and I suspect that's why the word is out that the "experiencers'" group is going to be limited to those who have been anally probed by greys (I exaggerate only slightly).

You may be onto something when you suggest (at least I think that's what you're suggesting) that the literalists are somehow part of this web, too. Perhaps they're caught in a tiny corner of the web by design not of their own (at least conscious) making.

How many of you guys have had OOB's or NDE's? This was one aspect I learned about from Nick Redfern's Collins Elite stuff - he's apparently got another book in the works.