Forced Vaccinations: What Could Possibly go Wrong?

originally posted by: yuniorsan
Here additional food for thought...

based on the CDC website for cases in 2014 --- 1/10 vaccinated kids got the Measles (Not a very good record I might say, I would have assumed it should be much lower, maybe 1/100 or something similar by the way is been pushed).

So 9/10 isn't a high enough standard for you? I guess back in your oriental medicine practice you have a 100% record when it comes to preventing measles? does tiger penis soup have a 100% record?

Based on the following report, there has been no deaths from measles since 2003 and based on the studies there have been around 160 cases of measles reported every year (Let's not count the illegals that are afraid of going to the hospital just because the kid has a fever) that's closed to 2,000 cases without a death.

www.foxnews.com...

Typical anti-vaxer, sees a headline, misinterprets it and then posts it as though its evidence for your claims lol. Here's a quote from that story:

The large number of measles cases this year stresses the importance of vaccination. Healthcare providers should use every patient encounter to ensure that all their patients are up to date on vaccinations; especially, before international travel.

and now lets see what are the side effects of MMR vaccine based on the CDC:
www.cdc.gov...

Lets see the symptoms of Measles based on the CDC.
www.cdc.gov...

ok, so right out of the gate, the mild side effects of the vaccines are pretty much the same as the regular symptoms.

You clearly have not got a clue what you're talking about, don't ever describe yourself as a doctor.

Educate yourself on what measles does to pregnant women....and also learn what exactly Math is.

One flu shot far surpassess your life-time recommended dosage of mercury (which is 0 mg).

originally posted by: cooperton
One flu shot far surpassess your life-time recommended dosage of mercury (which is 0 mg).

Ethylmercury was removed preemptively from all routinely used childhood vaccines in 2001, but it needn’t have been.

Studies have shown that thimerosal-containing vaccines are safe, with no ill effect beyond the standard pain or redness at the injection site.

originally posted by: Boadicea
Regarding measles virus RNA in urine... As the cited study determined, patients are in fact contagious for measles after vaccination.

CTRL-F
"contag"
No results.

They were not studying the possible transmission of vaccine-derived measles, they did not make any conclusions about the transmission of vaccine-derived measles, and they did not even use the word "contagious." They briefly discussed asymptomatic or subclinical infections, but admitted, "it is not known whether individuals who do not display the full range of clinical signs characteristic of measles infection are capable of transmitting the virus to other susceptible individuals." And even if they are, we're still talking about the attenuated measles strain and the resulting asymptomatic or subclinical infection, not full-blown measles. All they determined was that they had developed a less expensive test for measles RNA in urine.

Let's talk about that. Let's assume their test works as designed. I don't know why you'd believe that, since you disbelieve everything else scientists and doctors tell you, but let's roll with it. Infection occurs in the respiratory system. If you think measles is urine makes a person contagious, you have to explain how the urine gets into the respiratory system. I cannot imagine that is an everyday occurrence, even in families with infants. With an actual measles infection, there is a 90% chance that susceptible household members will get it. Do you think there's a 90% chance that household members will inhale a vaccinated child's urine in amounts sufficient to cause infection? (What amount is that, by the way?) If the probability of inhaling that amount of a vaccinated child's urine is less than 90%, vaccination is still the preferable course of action. Vaccination, and washing your hands after your kid pees on them.

For years, we were told otherwise. They were wrong, we were misinformed.

Like I said, millions of doses, only tens or hundreds of cases every year, and all or nearly all are traced back to imports. Even if you are correct, you are talking about risk on the order of one in a million. If we were to stop vaccinating for measles, the disease would become a universal childhood disease again. Do you understand the difference between "one in a million" and "universal?"

At one time, parents were assured that one measles vaccine would guarantee immunity for life. They were wrong, we were misinformed.

I'm sorry you were misinformed. But "some parents were misinformed by somebody about X in the year 19XX" is not an argument against what is known or believed by the scientific and medical communities today, in 2015. It's a strawman. You have no convincing arguments against current medical recommendations, so all you can do is prop up old recommendations no one has followed for years and rail against them. Hey, did you know at one time parents were assured bleeding is an effective remedy for imbalanced humors, but it actually doesn't work at all? You better not vaccinate your kids!

you will not give me the same respect, and will in fact subject me and mine to all manner of horrors at the hands of others for your own perceived benefit.

Not for my benefit. There is a greater than 90% probability that I am immune to measles, I don't travel where it's endemic, I'm not around young children, and I don't knowingly associate with anti-vaxers. And if I do get it, I will probably recover, as I am healthy and have excellent health care. I have plenty of sick days saved up, so I won't even take an economic hit, other than my deductible, which is pretty small. That goes for most vaccine-preventable diseases. But there are others who are not as privileged as I am. They are the ones suffering and dying because of anti-vaxers. So I hope you'll forgive me if I don't find anti-vaxers worthy of extraordinary respect. But I would not subject you to horrors. At most, I would subject you to a legal regime in which you are responsible for your choices and how they impact the well-being of others. If you consider that horrible, you might want to rethink those choices.

As far as the unsealed docs, so you don't know and don't care what information is being withheld from us -- no matter how dangerous... okay.

I don't care about vague intimations of allegations of devious machinations, no. Nor am I inclined to waste time or money on PACER reading anti-vaxer filings.

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: cooperton
One flu shot far surpassess your life-time recommended dosage of mercury (which is 0 mg).

Ethylmercury was removed preemptively from all routinely used childhood vaccines in 2001, but it needn’t have been.

Studies have shown that thimerosal-containing vaccines are safe, with no ill effect beyond the standard pain or redness at the injection site.

all 0 studies that you posted haved shown that thimerosal-containing vaccines are safe. I will show you some that say the contrary:


"A dose-response relationship between organic mercury exposure from thimerosal-containing vaccines and neurodevelopmental disorders"

-which concluded: 'Routine childhood vaccination may be an important public health tool to reduce infectious disease-associated morbidity/mortality, but the present study significantly associates organic-Hg exposure from T-HBV with an increased risk of an ND diagnosis'


"Thimerosal compromises human dendritic cell maturation, IL-12 production, chemokine release, and T-helper polarization"

-which concluded 'Although multi-dose vials of vaccines containing thimerosal remain important for vaccine delivery, our results alert about the ex-vivo immunomodulatory effects of thimerosal on Dendritic Cells, a key player for the induction of an adaptive response'


"Thimerosal induces apoptotic and fibrotic changes to kidney epithelial cells in vitro"

-which concluded 'Collectively, these in vitro results demonstrate that (1) thimerosal induces kidney epithelial cell apoptosis via upregulating Bax and the mitochondrial apoptotic pathway, and (2) thimerosal is a potential pro-fibrotic agent in human kidney cells. We suggest that new evidence on toxicity as well as continuous surveillance in terms of fibrogenesis is required concerning thimerosal use'


The general conclusion: maybe intravenous mercury is a bad idea for a young child

originally posted by: Boadicea
It just occurred to me that there is a huge -- and important -- disconnect here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your premise is that I am anti-vaxxer -- despite my declaration to the contrary in my OP.

That's my conclusion, not my premise.

To define terms, your premise is that I oppose any and all vaccinations for any and all reasons;

My premise is that willful misinterpretation of scientific research in such a manner as to discourage vaccination is indicative of an anti-vaxer. That's what you did. It was willful--as stated above, you have a political axe to grind. It was misinterpretation, which I cover in this post and elsewhere. The effect is to discourage vaccination. Therefore, you're an anti-vaxer.

The links I posted were intended to do exactly what my post title says: to show what could go wrong.

You omitted what goes wrong when people don't vaccinate, which is several orders of magnitude greater than what could go wrong when they do. That marks you as an anti-vaxer.

And I provided many and varied examples of same, both current and historically. I provided links to each article. I read each and every article/study/whatever that I linked to.

The act of reading does not imply you understood them, or that you are representing them accurately.

I personally have very little interest in how 'safe', 'good' or even 'bad' vaccinations can be.

If people 'want' vaccinations they should be allowed to have them.

If people do not want vaccinations they should never be forced.

Forcing any type of treatment on anyone is always a bad and even criminal act. But, in all honesty, that is just my own humble opinion.

Now to criminalise someone who refuse to have, or allow their children to have a treatment that is not an immeadiately life saving treament simply shows desperation and fear on the part of those who manufacture and profit hugely from any medical treament.

Herd immunity might well be spouted as the reason, but it is well known that people do catch the disease they have been vaccinated for. Even myself as a babe vaccinated for measles then caught measles. How does that protect the herd?

Of course, it doesn't.

So, to attempt to force vaccinations smells very fishy, wrong and should set the alarm bells ringing for anyone with a brain that is still functioning.

originally posted by: cooperton
all 0 studies that you posted haved shown that thimerosal-containing vaccines are safe.

The CDC has a lot to say about thimerosal and how safe they think it is...

I will show you some that say the contrary:

Ah yes....your first quote came from a research paper by the infamous David A. Geier...

Geier and his son, David Geier, are frequently cited by proponents of the claim that vaccines cause autism. Geier's credibility as an expert witness has been questioned in 10 court cases. In 2003, a judge ruled that Geier presented himself as an expert witness in "areas for which he has no training, expertise and experience." In other cases in which Geier has testified, judges have labeled his testimony "intellectually dishonest," "not reliable" and "wholly unqualified." Another judge wrote that Geier "may be clever, but he is not credible."

Geier's scientific work has also been criticized; when the Institute of Medicine reviewed vaccine safety in 2004, it dismissed Geier's work as seriously flawed, "uninterpretable", and marred by incorrect use of scientific terms. In 2003, the American Academy of Pediatrics criticized one of Geier's studies, which claimed a link between vaccines and autism, as containing "numerous conceptual and scientific flaws, omissions of fact, inaccuracies, and misstatements." New Scientist reported that the institutional review board which approved some of Geier's experiments with autistic children was located at Geier's business address and included Geier, his son and wife, a business partner of Geier's, and a plaintiff's lawyer involved in vaccine litigation. In January 2007, a paper by the Geiers was retracted by the journal Autoimmunity Reviews

On April 27, 2011, the Maryland State Board of Physicians suspended Mark Geier's medical license as an "emergency action", saying he "endangers autistic children and exploits their parents by administering to the children a treatment protocol that has a known substantial risk of serious harm and which is neither consistent with evidence-based medicine nor generally accepted in the relevant scientific community." The board ruled that Geier misdiagnosed patients, diagnosed patients without sufficient tests, and recommended risky treatments without fully explaining the risks to the parents.

So yeah, great source!

Vaccination deniers don't care about the truth and the actual science behind vaccinations, they just look for information to confirm their faulty line of thinking.

The general conclusion: maybe intravenous mercury is a bad idea for a young child

No that's your conclusion, the one you were always looking/hoping for....

originally posted by: FurvusRexCaeli
Do you understand the difference between "one in a million" and "universal?"

Yes, as a matter of fact I do. And do you understand the difference between anti-vax and anti-FORCED-vax? Of course you do.

But I would not subject you to horrors.

If you are willing to force me to undergo ANY invasive procedure and thus take away my inalienable right to be secure in my person, then yes, you are subjecting me to all kinds of horrors -- both known and unknown.

At most, I would subject you to a legal regime in which you are responsible for your choices

If you are taking away my right to choose, then you are also taking away my responsibility.

and how they impact the well-being of others.

I am quite concerned about the long-term impact of forced vaccination (or any other invasive procedure) on others as well as myself...including you.

If you consider that horrible, you might want to rethink those choices.

If you don't think such tyranny over others is and will be horrible, you might want to rethink those choices.

originally posted by: FurvusRexCaeli

originally posted by: Boadicea
It just occurred to me that there is a huge -- and important -- disconnect here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your premise is that I am anti-vaxxer -- despite my declaration to the contrary in my OP.

That's my conclusion, not my premise.

Well. That says pretty much everything I need to know then. It is absolutely impossible for you to know better than me what I think and what position I take. You are claiming, therefore, to have knowledge that is impossible to have, and refusing to even consider otherwise, all based on your own... what? I'll let you fill in the blank.

originally posted by: Elliot

If people 'want' vaccinations they should be allowed to have them.

If people do not want vaccinations they should never be forced.

Forcing any type of treatment on anyone is always a bad and even criminal act. But, in all honesty, that is just my own humble opinion.

Now to criminalise someone who refuse to have, or allow their children to have a treatment that is not an immeadiately life saving treament simply shows desperation and fear on the part of those who manufacture and profit hugely from any medical treament....

So, to attempt to force vaccinations smells very fishy, wrong and should set the alarm bells ringing for anyone with a brain that is still functioning.

Thank you! Very well said and pretty much just the way I feel about it.

Vaccinations are not inherently evil... but tyranny is.

a reply to: Prezbo369

“Are you saying that oriental medicine hasn't been keeping records for as long as western medicine has? despite oriental medicine being around for over 2000 years?!? I wonder why....”

That tells me you only hear what you want to hear... won't explain this further, not time to send you all the research.

“How can you call yourself a 'doctor of oriental medicine' if you've never prescribed tiger penis soup to anyone?.....”

Once again, I'm worry about your infatuation with tiger penis soup. Don't worry there is something similar in western medicine that you can try is called "Viagra" and "Cialis" - if they don't work we can help you regardless of the amount of time you have suffered the condition. No pill, no chemicals, just good old oriental medicine, without the tiger penis soup of course. But if you really really really want to try the tiger penis soup, a quick trip to anywhere in china will make your dream come true. - Again, I can save you the trip we can help with the condition with just a few treatments... I can give you the same offer I give my patients, if you don't have an erection within the first 6 treatments, your money will be returned...

“Lol is that what you say to your customers/marks? ”

Yes right after they are healed

“Lobotomy was always controversial and didn't ever have a scientific consensus.”

That's of the must misleading quotes I have seen from you, and I have seen a lot. - How can you call over 80,000 lobotomies worldwide in a 20 year period not a scientific consensus? are you saying that this is all done by 2 guys in a garage somewhere? Ohhhh wait, wait, wait, I guess this guy en.wikipedia.org...
received his Nobel price because he was the one that did all 80,000 lobotomies. Even if for a short period lobotomy was believed by most of the scientific community as a viable treatment method. and GUESS What not all doctors are completely happy with our current table of vaccinations.

“Lol 'research' isn't just copy pasting a list of drugs from the anti-western medicine/anti pharma booklet you have at home...you don't know the meaning of the word.”

assuming you are correct and I just copy and paste, and since it seems you know the meaning of the word researching, can you do the research and prove wrong any of the numbers I gave you regarding how lethal can big pharma be? - wait don't respond I will predict your response, it will go something like this "Do the research yourself, blah, blah, blah"
So as you can see your response above shows you have no response, what a conundrum...

“You're not even honest enough to admit your position on vaccines....”

Once again, I think your reading skills are lacking, do you still failed to understand my position? I have said it to you over 10 times, but I will try one more time:
1- I agree with the fact that vaccines have help humanity
2- I don't agree with the current schedule of vaccines
3- I don't agree with the lack of transparency by the pharma creating the vaccines
4- I don't agree with the fact that Big Pharma has immunity regarding any adverse effects caused by vaccinations
5- I don't agree with vaccination for some diseases (And those are the ones I don't put into my child)

Does this makes it a little clearer or I need to get you Tiger Penis Soup to erect your brain cells?

“So 9/10 isn't a high enough standard for you? I guess back in your oriental medicine practice you have a 100% record when it comes to preventing measles? does tiger penis soup have a 100% record?”

1- Well you failed again, I'm not the one making claims that Vaccines are the stopper of everything, with a record of 1/10 clearly they are not.
2- Has oriental medicine prevent measles? you clearly don't understand how oriental medicine work, your lack of argument shows in the fact that you come back every time trying to attack oriental Medicine, instead of showing proof with links that I'm wrong.
3- Seriously you don't need tiger penis soup to treat your condition, there are easier ways to get an erection.

“Typical anti-vaxer, sees a headline, misinterprets it and then posts it as though its evidence for your claims lol. Here's a quote from that story:

The large number of measles cases this year stresses the importance of vaccination. Healthcare providers should use every patient encounter to ensure that all their patients are up to date on vaccinations; especially, before international travel.

”

Can you please explain how I misrepresented the number I gave you regarding that Quote, weren't numbers in the article?

Based on the following report, there has been no deaths from measles since 2003 and based on the studies there have been around 160 cases of measles reported every year (Let's not count the illegals that are afraid of going to the hospital just because the kid has a fever) that's closed to 2,000 cases without a death.

www.foxnews.com...

again your reading skills betrayed you... that report was actually a good thing for vaccination but you failed to see it that way... its a shame.

“You clearly have not got a clue what you're talking about; don't ever describe yourself as a doctor.”

And you clearly try to make an argument without anything backing it up.
Unluckily for you the fact that I have a doctorate in oriental medicine, and have passed 4 national boards exams, gives me the ability to call and describe myself as a doctor.

“Educate yourself on what measles does to pregnant women....and also learn what exactly Math is.”

Yes, I know what measles does to pregnant women, do you know what:
Isotretinoin, and Diethylstibestrol did to pregnant women?… Yes is only 2 but I’m tired, you find the rest.

Sorry Oriental medicine only works with inexact math, and no, tiger Penis Soup does not help with that condition.

------------

I enjoyed this conversation, but clearly your arguments are always based on personal believes and never on concrete fact or evidence... therefore any other conversations without any proof of your argument will be a waist of my time... So here if it makes you feel better, I respect your believes that vaccines are the savior of mankind, and that Big Pharma are always, always trying to make you feel better regardless of profit margins, investors, etc.. - I also respect the fact that you will never question anything that government tells you.

Once again, thank you for this fun times.

originally posted by: Prezbo369


The CDC has a lot to say about thimerosal and how safe they think it is...

Ah yes, the CDC. Good ol' big brother looking out for us, right? Nope:

"Methodological issues and evidence of malfeasance in research purporting to show thimerosal in vaccines is safe"

-abstract: 'There are over 165 studies that have focused on Thimerosal, an organic-mercury (Hg) based compound, used as a preservative in many childhood vaccines, and found it to be harmful. Of these, 16 were conducted to specifically examine the effects of Thimerosal on human infants or children with reported outcomes of death; acrodynia; poisoning; allergic reaction; malformations; auto-immune reaction; Well's syndrome; developmental delay; and neurodevelopmental disorders, including tics, speech delay, language delay, attention deficit disorder, and autism. In contrast, the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention states that Thimerosal is safe and there is "no relationship between Thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism rates in children." This is puzzling because, in a study conducted directly by CDC epidemiologists, a 7.6-fold increased risk of autism from exposure to Thimerosal during infancy was found. The CDC's current stance that Thimerosal is safe and that there is no relationship between Thimerosal and autism is based on six specific published epidemiological studies coauthored and sponsored by the CDC. The purpose of this review is to examine these six publications and analyze possible reasons why their published outcomes are so different from the results of investigations by multiple independent research groups over the past 75+ years.'

within the article itself he states:
"evidence in an email from Verstraeten, the lead investigator, written to a colleague outside of the CDC (obtained by the authors via the US Freedom of Information Act of 1950 as amended), suggests that Verstraeten could have been receiving pressure within the CDC to apply unsound statistical methods to deny a causal relationship between Thimerosal and autism"

the 7.6 fold increase in autism risk was expressed in this study:

“Increased risk of developmental neurologic impairment after high exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccine in first month of life,”

this study was then replaced by 4 subsequent attempts which altered the methods and analytic tools to get the number down to be considered safe.

if you want I can copy and paste the whole article, I can't give you a link because I am subscribed to the database...

Does it surprise you that the CDC misrepresents scientific findings in favor of mega corporations?

originally posted by: yuniorsan
a reply to: Prezbo369

That tells me you only hear what you want to hear....won't explain this further, not time to send you all the research.

I can give you the same offer I give my patients, if you don't have an erection within the first 6 treatments, your money will be returned...

wait don't respond I will predict your response, it will go something like this "Do the research yourself, blah, blah, blah"
So as you can see your response above shows you have no response, what a conundrum...

Once again, I think your reading skills are lacking, do you still failed to understand my position? I have said it to you over 10 times, but I will try one more time:

I don't agree with vaccination for some diseases

And you clearly try to make an argument without anything backing it up.
Unluckily for you the fact that I have a doctorate in oriental medicine, and have passed 4 national boards exams, gives me the ability to call and describe myself as a doctor.

Sorry Oriental medicine only works with inexact math, and no, tiger Penis Soup does not help with that condition.

I respect your believes that vaccines are the savior of mankind, and that Big Pharma are always, always trying to make you feel better regardless of profit margins, investors, etc.. - I also respect the fact that you will never question anything that government tells you.

Why cant all vaccination deniers put together such rational and coherent arguments?

originally posted by: cooperton

Ah yes, the CDC. Good ol' big brother looking out for us, right? Nope:

"Methodological issues and evidence of malfeasance in research purporting to show thimerosal in vaccines is safe"

this study was then replaced by 4 subsequent attempts which altered the methods and analytic tools to get the number down to be considered safe.

if you want I can copy and paste the whole article, I can't give you a link because I am subscribed to the database...

Does it surprise you that the CDC misrepresents scientific findings in favor of mega corporations?

Did you really just reference another article from proven lair and fraud David Geier???

The same person that lied in 10 different court cases and had his medical licence removed due to his lies regarding autism and vaccinations???

good grief...

What a load of crap! I'm just getting over my second bout of flu since having my flu immunization jab last November. I don't need stories for or against immunization, I know through personal experience they don't work.
Now I'm over 65 and a bad bout of flu could actually kill me so would my death be just one of those things?
Now come on with your stories starting with" ah but", no excuses this could have killed me.

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: yuniorsan
a reply to: Prezbo369

Why cant all vaccination deniers put together such rational and coherent arguments?

Perzobo369 I must say that although refreshing I never imaging that response above!!! throughout our bickering the past week or so, were I gave you facts and you responded with nothing, I really though that you were incapable of critical thinking and respecting the views of others. I was clearly wrong and must say I'm glad you acknowledge by point of view, and agree that my arguments were coherent and rational. I see now, that you have the potential of viewing other people point of views and analyze their ideas.

Once again thank you for your kind words and I hope we can keep having civilized conversations in the future.
have a beautiful day.

-----
I wasn't going to reply, but you must admit you left the door wide open... and 2 can play the game.

originally posted by: yuniorsan

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: yuniorsan
a reply to: Prezbo369

Why cant all vaccination deniers put together such rational and coherent arguments?

Perzobo369 I must say that although refreshing I never imaging that response above!!! throughout our bickering the past week or so, were I gave you facts and you responded with nothing, I really though that you were incapable of critical thinking and respecting the views of others. I was clearly wrong and must say I'm glad you acknowledge by point of view, and agree that my arguments were coherent and rational. I see now, that you have the potential of viewing other people point of views and analyze their ideas.

Once again thank you for your kind words and I hope we can keep having civilized conversations in the future.
have a beautiful day.

-----
I wasn't going to reply, but you must admit you left the door wide open... and 2 can play the game.

I don't respect your views, nor your occupation. I find them both to be utterly nonsensical and I find you to be a charlatan and a fraud that needlessly puts peoples health at risk in order to make you money.

I associate you and other oriental 'doctors' with psychics, astrologists, mediums, voodoo doctors, witch doctors, creationists and flat earth proponents.

I find your entire participation in this thread and any other such science denying threads to be nothing but a sales pitch, in the hope that more people will visit your backstreet store to treat their infectious diseases with things like bats wings, newts eyes and tigers penises....

You prey on and encourage those at their most desperate like all the other charlatans listed above, and are deserving of nothing but contempt and derision, IMHO.

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: yuniorsan

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: yuniorsan
a reply to: Prezbo369

Why cant all vaccination deniers put together such rational and coherent arguments?

Perzobo369 I must say that although refreshing I never imaging that response above!!! throughout our bickering the past week or so, were I gave you facts and you responded with nothing, I really though that you were incapable of critical thinking and respecting the views of others. I was clearly wrong and must say I'm glad you acknowledge by point of view, and agree that my arguments were coherent and rational. I see now, that you have the potential of viewing other people point of views and analyze their ideas.

Once again thank you for your kind words and I hope we can keep having civilized conversations in the future.
have a beautiful day.

-----
I wasn't going to reply, but you must admit you left the door wide open... and 2 can play the game.

I don't respect your views, nor your occupation. I find them both to be utterly nonsensical and I find you to be a charlatan and a fraud that needlessly puts peoples health at risk in order to make you money.

I associate you and other oriental 'doctors' with psychics, astrologists, mediums, voodoo doctors, witch doctors, creationists and flat earth proponents.

I find your entire participation in this thread and any other such science denying threads to be nothing but a sales pitch, in the hope that more people will visit your backstreet store to treat their infectious diseases with things like bats wings, newts eyes and tigers penises....

You prey on and encourage those at their most desperate like all the other charlatans listed above, and are deserving of nothing but contempt and derision, IMHO.

Wow diagnosed with bipolar disorder? one post you say you hope all anti-vaxers were as rational, and with such good arguments, and then you say you despise my views and occupation... I'm utterly confused... Can I recommend Turtle Soup?

originally posted by: yuniorsan
Wow diagnosed with bipolar disorder?

Are you giving an official alternative oriental medicine diagnosis using western medical terms?

Why do all of your prescriptions contain endangered species?