It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Calvinism and Arminianism

page: 1
3
<<   2 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Feb, 14 2015 @ 04:44 AM
link   
I spend a bit of time on this one in my own thoughts, however I was curious as to which way the majority of Christians on ATS lean in this pretty old debate.
Care to share, and your reasons, for your belief?
Which Passages do you think lend credence to your opinion and why?




posted on Feb, 14 2015 @ 04:53 AM
link   
Arminianism because I believe we possess free will.




edit on 14-2-2015 by Elton because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2015 @ 05:09 AM
link   
a reply to: Punisher75
I keep seeing "God has given us free will" in the arguments which Christians address to non-Christians, so I would guess that an unconscious Arminianism is the majority view.
Full-blown Calvinism may be a little academic for the taste of modern young Christians.
In fact it will be interesting to see how many know what you're talking about.
My distaste for the extreme "election" doctrine is instinctive rather than argued.

I have seen the suggestion that Pelagianism was for this issue what Nestorianism was for the Incarnation controversy.
That is, Nestorianism tended to separate out the humanity of Christ from his divinity, and in the same way Pelagius tended to give the human will too much independence.
I can see, on the other side, a similar parallel between Calvinism and Monophysitism.
That is, the Monophysite (in reaction against Nestorius) tended to let the humanity of Christ be absorbed into his divinity and disappear from view; similarly, Calvinism (in reaction against Pelagius) tends to let the action of the human will be absorbed into the action of the divine will and disappear from view.

I think there is the possibility of a "Chalcedonian" solution.
The human will and the divine will should be understood as acting together, like the humanity and divinity of Christ, and just as much a mystery.



posted on Feb, 14 2015 @ 05:19 AM
link   
Well I am trying to keep my personal views out of the thread until such a time as there are enough people responding to make the discourse more interesting. So that that effect, I will say two things in hopes of keeping my views incognito. LOL

1.) I would disagree as it concerns young people and TULIP as there was pretty recently a book entitled "Young Restless and Reformed" published not long ago.
In so far as ATS goes, well many of the more popular youtube videos/documentaries concerning conspiracy topics done by Christians seem to lean towards a Calvinist approach.

2.) I can understand why many people take the Armenian view, as it is still the most accepted view of the teachings of Scripture, Even if some of folks favorite teachers like John MacArthur and John Piper are Calvinist.



posted on Feb, 14 2015 @ 05:22 AM
link   
a reply to: Punisher75

Ha ha I want to lean to Calvinism however I have sinful thoughts and actions no matter how hard I try. that does sound like I have free will. I just cannot fathom it if I'm brutally honest. I know what God can do. But that's not the same thing.

I honestly have given up on this one. Maybe it's one of those child puzzles with the maze and you can start from a b c or d. There is only one exit and you try the others until your hearts content. The only quick way is to choose right first time or get help from a grown up. Well God in this instance.

Insight would be helpful

Regards



posted on Feb, 14 2015 @ 05:29 AM
link   
All the passages which say "I have chosen you" point to Calvinism.
All the passages which say "I want you to choose me" point to Arminianism.
I still think that if we can swallow the idea that Christ is God and man at the same time, we can swallow the idea that our coming to God is God's choice and our own choice at the same time.



posted on Feb, 14 2015 @ 05:31 AM
link   
a reply to: Punisher75

I don't know, but it's a pretty safe bet to assume that most participating Christians here have fundamentalist opinions on the bible and its teachings.




posted on Feb, 14 2015 @ 05:31 AM
link   
a reply to: DISRAELI

Limited atonement goes against my human nature. But that's irrelevant I suppose.

I would love to know what Jesus preached to the spirits. We are told that they are held until judgement. Is it possible that even they had/have a chance? If so then perhaps limited atonement is not accurate.

Regards



posted on Feb, 14 2015 @ 05:39 AM
link   
a reply to: DISRAELI

But are we not told that faith is a gift of God and that no one comes to Christ unless the father calls/draws them?

Or should it read as no one comes to to Christ UNTIL God calls, and then you have to argue if the acceptance is our choice or not eh?

Good point



posted on Feb, 14 2015 @ 05:44 AM
link   
I am glad I started a thread that some of you are interested in discussing. Keep it up I wanna read more of your thoughts!



posted on Feb, 14 2015 @ 05:49 AM
link   
a reply to: drevill
All I know is that this argument was a popular subject of discussion among the demons in Hell;

"Others apart sat on a hill retired,
In thoughts more elevate, and reasoned high
Of Providence, Foreknowledge, Will, and Fate-
Fixed fate, Freewill, foreknowledge absolute-
And found no end, in wandering mazes lost"-
John Milton, Paradise Lost, Book II, ll557-561


edit on 14-2-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2015 @ 06:03 AM
link   
a reply to: [post=19002398]Punisher75[/post

Christ to the father says but by Gods will and not his. Is there a better example to look at?

Job also says that when God decides a thing it is done. Has he decided in advance on everything or some of it? Or all of it or some of it as it happens??

Then you have proverbs 16. But in opposition 2 Peter 3

Needless, I say God is in control and everything is for his glory.



posted on Feb, 14 2015 @ 06:07 AM
link   

originally posted by: drevill
a reply to: [post=19002398]Punisher75[/post

Christ to the father says but by Gods will and not his. Is there a better example to look at?



To be fair I think the context of that particular passage had more to do with submission, than any statement of soteriology.
The others I will have to look at more closely I think to give a decent response.



posted on Feb, 14 2015 @ 06:11 AM
link   
a reply to: DISRAELI

My question would have to be how do you judge those that do not have free will? if God is supremely wise and then had everyone do everything to his will, why the judgement? Surely sin is an act of will
against gods will?

Additionally why would God have any anger, wrath etc?



posted on Feb, 14 2015 @ 06:20 AM
link   

originally posted by: drevill
a reply to: DISRAELI

My question would have to be how do you judge those that do not have free will? if God is supremely wise and then had everyone do everything to his will, why the judgement? Surely sin is an act of will
against gods will?

Additionally why would God have any anger, wrath etc?




I heard a Guy named Jerry Walls who did a lecture called "whats wrong with Calvinism" and he addresses this very question.
His argument as it concerns Calvinism is in short the something like the following;
Calvinist would ask, How does a Sovereign God love?
Armenian would ask, How does a loving God express his sovereignty?



posted on Feb, 14 2015 @ 06:26 AM
link   
a reply to: Punisher75

Ha ha. I'm a dad of three little ones. I know my expression of love doesn't just mean a hug and a smile

I mention previously that I have given up on this and happy to trust in him as much as humanly possible.

It can certainly go round and around. I believe God is in total control even if I'm allowed to choose
If I use a fork or a spoon at my meal or not. It doesn't matter really. Because either way God can make me do one or the other should he wish to.

Regards



posted on Feb, 14 2015 @ 06:27 AM
link   
a reply to: drevill
As I said at the beginning, my instincts are on that side of the argument rather than the Calvinist side.



posted on Feb, 14 2015 @ 06:39 AM
link   
I just think its an interesting topic, no because it is confusing but rather its existence.
Hopefully I have not given away my position just yet, but I do enjoy listening to both sides of the debate.
I have heard so much James White and so many rebuttals by people like Jerry Walls, that I did not know what to think for awhile there.
However I have in fact come to a conclusion that I think is pretty air tight.
None the less the very topic and researching the topic is a good way to really dig into the text itself, as it will take you all over the scripture.



posted on Feb, 14 2015 @ 06:44 AM
link   
a reply to: DISRAELI

Calvin himself had something to say about it too. I can't imagine preaching on such a topic.




when they inquire into predestination, let then remember that they are penetrating into the recesses of the divine wisdom, where he who rushes forward securely and confidently, instead of satisfying his curiosity will enter in inextricable labyrinth. For it is not right that man should with impunity pry into things which the Lord has been pleased to conceal




edit on 14-2-2015 by drevill because: Typo



posted on Feb, 14 2015 @ 06:52 AM
link   
a reply to: drevill

LOL
I have heard it said that modern day Calvinist are often times more Calvinist than Calvin was.




top topics



 
3
<<   2 >>

log in

join