Calvinism and Arminianism

a reply to: Punisher75

I used to know someone, that took me under their wing and Flooded me with Calvinist literature. All free of charge. Which was all fine. However it didn't take too long before they became very insistent and demanding about it. Even to the point that I wasn't saved because I wouldn't conform wholehearted to it.

It went down hill from there really. They failed to understand when it I said perhaps it's not in Gods plan for me.

Calvinism has it's points, but I liked Hobbes too.
2nd line.

a reply to: DAVID64

From my country . Got to be a good un. Although Diogenes seems more fun

I think I lean more Arminianist without really being aware that I was. In order for God to make sense to both of us, we came to the conclusion that God exists outside the physical bounds of the universe He created and isn't bound by its rules. As such, time doesn't mean to Him what it means to us. And there are verses/passages that back this view.

So, while we go through life here making our choices, God has already seen us go through our life making our choices, and He is seeing us go through life making our choices, and He hasn't even gotten to where we are even a thought to our parents. Alpha and Omega all at once.

But just because He knows/is knowing the score doesn't mean it influences where we are or what we do. It just means for Him that it's happening all at once while we get to experience it linearly in extreme slow motion because of time.

This backs Arminianism more than it backs Calvinism IMO. But I guess it just depends on how much of a control freak you want to think God really is being with us. If you go with Calvinsim, then why bother with a sheep and goats judgment? This seems like an awful elaborate simulation when He would already know from the outset who was in and who was out. Calvinism would have us all like so many dominoes falling in the pattern and most of those falling the wrong way.

I believe that free will and predestination are two sides of the same coin. The elect are predestined, because God foreknew that the elect would exercise faith by free will.

Beyond that, I think that by trying to separate the faces of the coin, you deatroy the bigger picture.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
All the passages which say "I have chosen you" point to Calvinism.
All the passages which say "I want you to choose me" point to Arminianism.
I still think that if we can swallow the idea that Christ is God and man at the same time, we can swallow the idea that our coming to God is God's choice and our own choice at the same time.

Excellent point above. I am reminded of people like Nebuchadnezzar and Cyrus. There are passages like :

Romans 9:21-23King James Version (KJV) 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Jeremiah 27:6King James Version (KJV) 6 And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him.

2 Timothy 2:20-21King James Version (KJV) 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Bottom line God's will is what drives the universe. He allows things to happen through free will but at the same time he is in complete control. Someone like Nebuchadnezzar had his free will to be a non-believer and God allowed his free will to be used for his purposes. Those purposes could be to show judgement or mercy. To bring about prophetic events etc. If Nebuchadnezzar had chosen to do differently God would have chosen another vessel to suit his purpose. God may not directly control our actions but perhaps he allows events in our lives to shape our actions and then applies that how he wishes. Those are just my thoughts on the matter and I do not find them to be contradictory.

a reply to: DAVID64

Zing! LOL

So the general consensus so far is pretty much a molinist sort of thing or "Middle Knowledge"?

en.wikipedia.org...

The other thing to realize, and my husband pointed this out when we were talking about this in the car, in attempting to figure this out, we are basically trying to ascribe human logic to God. Does God think in a human manner? I don't think he does. I don't expect to really understand even the smallest part of what God does and why until after I meet Him, and even then I'm not sure I'll really get it.

Yeah its a good question, started off as an arminiast without really knowing it and then went on to calvinism for a very short amount of time. I understand there is a lot of Calvinism in the bible, there is also a lot about free will and salvation for all if people receive it.
I don't think we can know the answer, I wont say Calvinism is wrong but it has spawned some horrific cults. Wesboro Baptist and Apartheid come to mind.
I am not sure there is an answer.