Warning Over TV Which Listens In On Users !

how is this legal a tv built with its own listening bugs why would they do it?

Remember back when we used to mock North Korea for putting microphones in their citizens homes, just to make sure they weren't saying anything improper? Now we've got Kinect, TV's, webcams, and phones all of which can be activated remotely.

This is not ok. We need some real data privacy and data mining laws that apply to corporations and governments.

originally posted by: AgentSmith
Still find it astonishing that people don't seem to have paid attention to the fact you have to be pushing and holding the 'speak' button for anything to be sent.

And if you're still paranoid then don't connect the TV to the Internet.

And if even then you're still paranoid, go see a shrink - like seriously.

Until it's activated remotely by Samsung at government request. Just like your webcam can be, and just like your phone can be.

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun

originally posted by: Ellie Sagan
a reply to: ScientificRailgun

haha I chuckled at that... I'm one of those people who put tape over the camera on my laptop! I used electrical tape though, because the black blends in more.

I don't care if you laugh at me.

I won't laugh at anyone who tapes a webcam. If you're not very computer literate you may inadvertently download a piece of malware that would allow someone to view your webcam feed discreetly. Though, most webcams now have an activity light to tell you when it's on.

All webcams can be activated without turning on the light. As part of your EULA for the flash player for example you give permission to Adobe to periodically activate your webcam and take a picture for them to analyze and data mine. Your webcam light never turns on as part of this.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
Even if these TV's listened to me without having to press a button, there wouldn't be anything interesting collected. Let's be real here, the amount of information that is gathered daily is staggering and almost useless for nefarious purposes because of that.

What's so wrong with targeted ads? I hate ads anyway, so the ones I do see might as well be relevant to my likes. Welcome to the future, if the people didn't enjoy the technology it wouldn't exist.

Remember, Rob Lowe says they hide listening devices in our cheese too -- I'm off to look through my Kraft singles...

It's about metadata and building a profile on you. Scanning images for product logos for example determines what brands you buy. There's an entire subsection of behavioral analysis which can make an accurate model of you based on the brands you purchase. This has been accurately proven when combined with other meta data factors to be very accurate predictors of future crimes, it can even specify the type of crime and when paired with metadata to find your habits can create a list of the most likely victims.

The end game here isn't about listening to you talk about hot pockets, it's about pronouncing you guilty of a crime before you ever do it. Not only does this remove the concept of innocent until proven guilty, but it takes away any ability to commit a justified crime (such as overthrowing a tyrannical government).

Even if you have no sympathy for that let me give you another example, that of a political reformer. If you capture everything a person ever says or does you WILL find dirt on them. This lets those in power systematically destroy any possible opposition so that they can remain in power.

If you want another example lets talk corporate espionage. Maybe you're an executive at a company and you bring some work home with you, perhaps you discuss it with a colleague on the phone. Your TV is now capturing and storing that conversation and a government like China can break into the database and search for information on your conversations then find out information on your product. This one has ALREADY happened. Should we enable more of this?

a reply to: Denoli

Yup, I'm happy with my dumb tv. But I'm sure that they can, and do the same with my smart phone. I guess this is the price we pay for new consumer electronics.

a reply to: Aazadan

The thing is, out of 6 billion people -- 99.9% of us just aren't that interesting or worth "special attention".

LG smart TV's would write down all the file names on any USB stick you plug into the TV. It would transfer that information and other data even if you turn the setting off. We need better consumer protection laws in the US.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: Aazadan

The thing is, out of 6 billion people -- 99.9% of us just aren't that interesting or worth "special attention".

It all depends on what you're looking for. Everyone is interesting to a certain search target. Let me walk you through the logic: Lets take a group of numbers, some are interesting some aren't. The most mundane number becomes interesting as a result of it being the most mundane. Now it is interesting and we're left with another least interesting number. Suddenly that number becomes interesting. Following this logic after enough iterations you can say that all numbers are interesting. Searching among people is much the same, the fact that many of us are uninteresting is precisely what makes us interesting. It just all depends on the search criteria used to see if you pop up.

Besides that you ignored the point. Corporate espionage is a very real issue, this will lead to security breaches in the future. Maybe not this specific technology but it's possible... it could always be a different microphone. How about government espionage? Get software on the TV of a high level government official and listen in? There are major security concerns here. How about elections when one candidate represents the establishment and can direct this data mining against an opponent? We already have proof of these third party databases being handed over to the NSA among others. The whole concept of free and fair elections is thrown out the window when this technology exists.

originally posted by: Aazadan
How about government espionage? Get software on the TV of a high level government official and listen in? There are major security concerns here. How about elections when one candidate represents the establishment and can direct this data mining against an opponent? We already have proof of these third party databases being handed over to the NSA among others. The whole concept of free and fair elections is thrown out the window when this technology exists.

Agreed, and I said much the same in my own thread on this subject. There is already the LG episode, and it's not clear whether LG themselves knew about the server data mining, maybe they did, maybe they didn't. Any which way, it is very spooky.
And don't forget those security systems all around the country, pubs shops...anything, it need not just be a business personnel looking in, it could be anybody at any time, potentially from anywhere.

well call me old-fashioned but, i like the machines i use to be relatively dumb.

smart TV? there's a contradiction in terms if ever i heard one.

Hey sweet! I didn't know that my new TV had this feature, but I just went and checked and it sure does. Just got a 75" Samsung 7150.

Now if I want to use this feature that's pretty sweet. The scary part is when hackers start going into these TV's and turning them on and recording what they can. Same as what happened to those college girls who had their computer webcams hacked and hacked images of them were taken. My wife and I regularly have sex on the couch in front of the TV... I could see some sick f**kers out there recording that to make a buck.

I would get one of these just to see if it was private or if they really were data mining me. I would say some of the most obnoxious off the wall stuff and then sit back and watch, and do it on a regular basis. It would be some of the most entertaining stuff around.

Think about it, you say thing that have no connection and then one thing that brings it all together and ultimately if they are capturing data and sending to say the authorities, it would be funny to watch and prove it was you who were saying or doing something illegal, when all you were doing was messing with them to show that they are wasting money and time.

originally posted by: sdcigarpig
I would get one of these just to see if it was private or if they really were data mining me. I would say some of the most obnoxious off the wall stuff and then sit back and watch, and do it on a regular basis. It would be some of the most entertaining stuff around.

Think about it, you say thing that have no connection and then one thing that brings it all together and ultimately if they are capturing data and sending to say the authorities, it would be funny to watch and prove it was you who were saying or doing something illegal, when all you were doing was messing with them to show that they are wasting money and time.

That's not quite how these systems work, they're built around a concept known as linkability. With targeted advertising for example, you talking about Pepsi doesn't make Pepsi commercials show up more often. Instead they record that you're a Pepsi fan and then show additional products that have been known to appeal to Pepsi customers. If you're familiar with the bar at the bottom of Amazon, Newegg, and probably other online vendors that says purchases of product W were also interested in X, Y, and Z you should grasp the basics. Once they find one product that appeals to you they can figure out what other products appeal to you. From this (and it really only takes a couple) you can do a brand identity analysis on a person. This gives you a psychological profile with an ID attached to it but it goes deeper than that.

Now lets include a smart phone that reports it's GPS locations during the day. This finds your movement patterns, as humans we're creatures of habit and we have pretty regular schedules. Coming/going to work, the grocery store, visiting friends, and so on. Each of us really only tends to visit a handful of places and most of those stick to a schedule. When a person all of a sudden changes their trip and starts going to locations 30 miles out of the way you can assume something is up. Perhaps they found a new boyfriend/girlfriend or perhaps they joined a cult. By cross referencing this location data with others location data who are in the area you can create a list of possible contacts from ID to ID.

Now you can look at those earlier profile to ID links and the ID to ID links and compare profiles to one another. If you're seeing people with overlapping profiles in the same area and these are new links you can conclude that these people are regularly meeting and you have an idea of the subject matter.

Not only do the TV's listen to your conversations and record them, but some modems, routers, game boxes, and some TV's, have cameras in the bezel. The idea is lets say you have a license for 4 users but the box detects ten different people in the room and doesn't recognize six of them (facial recognition software) as you or your family. You can get billed for the other six licenses you are "using" and have your box/service blocked until you pay.

Its scary to think your tv is recording your conversations. When I do that its a felony unless I a) tell everyone being recorded that they are being recorded, b) the recorder is in plain sight, c) there is an audible tone every 15 seconds for the duration of the recording. If they say a hidden microphone in a tv that is in plain sight qualifies, I think they are walking a really fine line there...on the wrong side... Not to mention the reasonable expectation of privacy associated with being in your own home. In public you are a fool if you think you have or are entitled to privacy. But in your own home that is a different story. Or at least it used to be.

a reply to: Denoli

Those daft enough to buy such a Telly, should now charge Samsung a high weekly rent for placing such Junk on the Property.

"TV Is Not Used Against Yous, Are Just Paranoid Ppl"

Uhm what ya expect when you come to site that is full of conspiracy theories and such.

"Also its not miracle that humans use any functions against each other".

a reply to: Denoli

The best way to deal with this is never......never buy a Samsung TV again.

I asked my lawyer about this today. He said that no one is forced to buy a tv. If you want one in your house and they all have cameras or microphones, and you know that when you buy it, you are agreeing to it. Its like staying on the phone after a message tells you that the call may be recorded. You never said you agreed to that but by staying on the line you accept those conditions. Same thing with the tv. If you buy it and bring it into your home knowing it has a camera and a mic in it, you really cant say you expect to never be recorded unless there is an agreement made to that effect.

What I would like to know is if there is a penalty for disabling the cameras and microphones. Do you void your warranty or do you violate some EULA for which you could be penalized? This is entering into a whole new branch of law and it seems that the technology is evolving faster than its regulation by quite a bit. Kinda scary...

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
I asked my lawyer about this today. He said that no one is forced to buy a tv. If you want one in your house and they all have cameras or microphones, and you know that when you buy it, you are agreeing to it. Its like staying on the phone after a message tells you that the call may be recorded. You never said you agreed to that but by staying on the line you accept those conditions. Same thing with the tv. If you buy it and bring it into your home knowing it has a camera and a mic in it, you really cant say you expect to never be recorded unless there is an agreement made to that effect.

What I would like to know is if there is a penalty for disabling the cameras and microphones. Do you void your warranty or do you violate some EULA for which you could be penalized? This is entering into a whole new branch of law and it seems that the technology is evolving faster than its regulation by quite a bit. Kinda scary...

This has to do with consumer protection laws in the US, they're pretty much non existent on anything electronic. A large part of this is due to the fact that we have never had a tech person in congress writing laws, they're all doctors and bankers (and look how protected those two areas are).

You will likely void your warranty if you disable the camera/mic, but that's the price of privacy. Software EULA's are largely unenforceable so if there's something that says you must use the microphone, they can't enforce that. What they are allowed to do, proven by Sonys PS3 patch in the past (the one that lead to the massive CC breaches that continue to this day) is they're allowed to sell you a product with X specifications, and then later change those specifications through a software update. Your continued use of the product is considered acceptance of the new parameters even though it is different from when you purchased it.

So in theory, they can sell you a TV that says the microphone will only be on when you press a button, and then later they can alter that through software to be always on and an act as simple as watching your TV means you agree to this change.

In the PS3 case they originally sold PS3's and marketed them as Linux capable machines. Eventually Sony reneged on that and disabled every console they sold that was running Linux, and prevented it from being installed on them in the future. Then they earned the unending ire of the hackers who actually cared about that feature. This was deemed 100% legal.

I have something to say about this. If anyone cares about their "smart tv" listening to them, they need to know that the non-smart versions do as well (I think). I am subscribed to Hulu Plus and I have consistently noticed something interesting. I usually mute the commercials on Hulu Plus when watching a streaming tv show. I can't say 100% that it's the tv that is listening (unless it has network connectivity through the HDMI when it is connected to the computer). It might even be the cable modem in our house that is listening (who knows?).

The interesting thing is that we were having conversations a year ago about what kind of cat food to buy our cat, when we decided to discuss making our own food for the cat to lower the cost and prevent the risks of all the emulsifiers and grain which can easily destroy the cat's kidneys. RIGHT AFTER the conversation, we started getting incessant commercials for several months for Meow Mix cat food! I was talking to a relative about my diabetes when Hulu was on, and then the commercials started about diabetes care! They continued for quite some time. The cat food commercials stopped when we had a conversation about the cat getting run over by someone outside (sadly).

I have since moved, and just last night I was talking with another relative about scar tissue on the face from plastic surgery. Immediately after that conversation, they aired a Botox commercial with all the big-pharma warnings about the risks of Botox! The interesting thing is that I do own a Samsung tv, but it's not one of the "smart" versions. It's either the TV, the cable box, or the computer itself that's listening to our conversations. I figure this is 100% verified, because it is even happening AFTER we moved.

What it comes down to is very simple. If you want to own modern electronics, you WILL be spied on for "advertising purposes". I am really starting to believe those stories about the idea that "even your toaster or fridge, or other appliances can listen in on you".

I have nothing to hide, but I don't feel "at home" when I cannot even have a private conversation in my own home!

I also registered that Samsung product that we bought in 2011, and I have noticed something consistent. Samsung keeps emailing me offers on discounts for their TV products anywhere from the 50% to 58% off prices if you "buy direct". What this means is that the people's voices have been heard. What it also meas is that even if you THINK you are not being listened to by tech these days, you REALLY are.

It's when I came to this realization, that I decided that I will be spending a lot less time in front of the TV/cable modem/computer/cell phone/ or anything that can listen in if I wish to have a truly private conversation. The reality is that in today's modern world, it's not as easy to live without technology. It's convenient, but that convenience has a price!