Do Women Find It Difficult Communicating Intellectually?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: lonesomerimbaud

Women do not lack any intellect, and in fact may have the upper hand on men in this case, but by judging from art, musical and literary history, it seems men have the upper hand in creativity.

I would say that is because men have had more opportunity in the past to follow such pursuits.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: lonesomerimbaud
I am just trying to encourage thought in women.

I know... And you think we need your encouragement or will benefit from it somehow... If you truly thought of us as equals, I doubt you'd feel the need to encourage us by gender. If you wanted to encourage people in general to be more intellectual, I would have supported you 100%, and your title and posts would not read as they do.

Truth is, women ARE intellectual and have no trouble with deep thought and don't need your encouragement. For you to encourage thought in women is like me encouraging men to think about sex.

I have got you to value and think about female quality literature and the reason why this deeper area of thought might be very vital to civilization.

The credit for me thinking about or valuing ANYTHING does not go to you.

I can quote thousands of male classical poets and authors and really very few female.

That is a shortcoming of yours, as I see it.

By that you mean I am not letting in female influence as much as you think wise?

You are very accurate. My mum left me when I was 3 years old. My grand mother, who brought me up died in my arms when I was 13. My ex wife tried to murder me. My other main ex abandoned me because her Dad told her to, because I was not suitable for their freemason family, because I would not follow orders. Yet I hold no hatred of any of this. I don't dislike freemasonry. My ex wife sought me out at the end stage of her life and I even offered to try and save her.

In contrast I have never hit a woman. I have never took advantage. I have tried to be equal. I did all the cleaning and cooking with my later ex.

On an emotional level I am actually now very wary. I don't have the strength for any more upset. My male literary and artistic companions keep me very happy and contained. I don't expect to have another relationship. My being is very aloof of the world (you know that I am at least a deeper thinking Christian who takes it all seriously). Who's failure it is I do not know, but may be you are more disposed to judgement?

Thank you for this little chat. It is so nice to have such empowered women all in one place. I needed that refreshment more than you might realise right now.

a reply to: woodwardjnr

They didn't have the time?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: woodwardjnr

They didn't have the time?

They weren't allowed the opportunity?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: woodwardjnr

They didn't have the time?

Traditionally the first male of the family would have been the one who was sent to be educated, the women were traditionally second rate citizens to their male counterparts. Whose purpose was to look after the running of the houseand care for the children younger siblings. I imagine this depended upon from what class of family one was born into.

originally posted by: lonesomerimbaud
Thank you for this little chat. It is so nice to have such empowered women all in one place. I needed that refreshment more than you might realise right now.

No problem.

Your past with women somewhat parallels my past with men. Interesting. Hang in there, though. At 33-ish, I met a man with whom I felt safe enough to explore myself, my past and my feelings about men. After 22 years of marriage, I can't thank him enough for providing the forum for me to straighten myself out, basically. And I met him in the same year that I "gave up" ever finding a mate.

I'm not judging you. I'm being as straight as I can with you. I'm like that.

a reply to: woodwardjnr

Not very many people were educated thought the whole of human history. What tradition do you speak of?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: woodwardjnr

Not very many people were educated thought the whole of human history. What tradition do you speak of?

The history of my home nation England inparticular

If you are looking for women writers and poets, don't forget about these great women:

Sappho: Ancient Greek poet

Anais Nin: French Born novelist and short-story writer, most famous for her journals

George Eliot: man's name but definitely a woman writer

Harriet Beecher Stowe: wrote Uncle Tom's Cabin, which helped change America

Mary Shelly

Gertrude Stein

Agatha Christie

Harper Lee: who wrote my absolute favorite book of all time

Ayn Rand: not my kind of writer, but an intellectual no doubt

Lillian Hellman: feminist, playwright/screenwriter/novelist

Flannery O'Connor: Southern writer and essayist during the mid-20th century

Virginia Woolf: who's afraid of her?

Shirley Jackson: Another great writer of the mid-20th century

Daphne DuMarier: wrote The Birds, Rebecca and Don't Look Now - one of my favorite creepy short stories

Joan Didion: writer and journalist

Joni Mitchell: songwriter/poet

Those are just the ones I came up with after thinking about it a bit.
Here's a comprehensive list of women writers/poets/songwriters (thousands of them). Some are famous, some not so famous - some better than others, but all of them have been published. Have you?

en.wikipedia.org...




If you're just looking for strong female intellectual powerhouses, check these women out:

Queen Elizabeth I

Abigail Adams - 2nd first lady, probably a lot smarter than her husband (by his own admission)

Marie Curie

Gloria Steinem

Golda Meir

Indira Gandhi

Elizabeth Blackwell - first American woman to get a medical degree. A pioneer in promoting the education of women in medicine

Ada Lovelace - English mathematician in the 1800's. Wrote the first algorithm intended to be processed by a machine (world's first computer programmer!)

Rachel Carson

Mary Leaky

Dr. Sally Ride - physicist, astronaut; first American woman in space

Sandra Day O'Connor - first female justice of the U.S. Supreme Court; was one of only three female students at Stanford Law School

Madeleine Albright - first woman Secretary of State

Hillary Clinton - love her or hate her, you have to admit she's not stupid

Most of these women were at their peak during a time when men ruled the world. I think that's pretty amazing. I would dare you to go toe-to-toe with any of these women. I triple-dog-dare-ya. They could all eat you for breakfast.

Yes, it's true that for every female powerhouse there are thousands of not-so-intellectual women. But you could say the exact same thing about males.

Why have there always been more famous male powerhouses than female ones? Men ruled and women were kept out of powerhouse professions. But many women were strong enough to fight, kick and push their way through anyway. Men didn't have to fight, kick and push their way through. That makes the women who did so even better, stronger and smarter than their male counterparts. Those type of women haven't gone away. They're still here. If you can't find them, you aren't looking very hard.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

That's great. I'm all for you, really. I'm 48 now. I have real problems relating with people. That is why I come to ATS. It is actually the only forum I am active in apart from the occasional gentle Guardian comment.

Yes I think our experiences are interesting because we have both experienced the darker side of our respective genders. I just want to read more women success stories, where they championed life untainted like many men have had the privilege of doing. It is a historical short fall and that void needs filling. The dialogue will continue between genders and I hope both genders can benefit from the equality and protection society now offers.

I was in a bit of disillusionment and am greatly encouraged by you and the other posters here that there is still some vitality.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
Men didn't have to fight, kick and push their way through.

Historically, it is not that they didn't have to, but they were met with much less resistance. Today. Everyone has to "fight, kick and push their way through." I understand the historical argument, but the only factor remaining from those days as to who can and cannot is class/societal structure. Gender is no longer the issue.

Pinterest...if you can explain that site then you can explain the communication of women.

originally posted by: Bleeeeep

"Men literally cannot listen as well as women, because a man's mind focuses more on perceiving, or understanding a thing, instead of feeling, and becoming a thing. Men cannot multitask as well as women, because they are so singularly focused on perceiving. Men cannot nurture as well as women, because they think with their mind, instead of feeling with their hearts. And men damn sure can't be as beautiful or tantalizing as women, as their bodies are the image of conception, or fruition, whereas a man's is just the image of a seeder or phallic."


There sure are a lot of men in listening professions (psychologists, psychiatrists). I have known women who were terrible listeners. I'm a woman and I'm terrible at multitasking. I can do one thing at a time. I have known men who were much more maternal than I could ever be. I have known women who took no pleasure in nurturing or caring for others. And I certainly find Keanu Reeves to be beautiful and tantalizing (and I know millions of other women do too!)

You see, there is a gender spectrum. We exist at various parts of the spectrum; nobody is 100% male or 100% female. So I don't think it is smart to generalize too much about males and females.


Sal

originally posted by: SallieSunshine

You see, there is a gender spectrum. We exist at various parts of the spectrum; nobody is 100% male or 100% female. So I don't think it is smart to generalize too much about males and females.

No truer statement has ever been written!

originally posted by: SallieSunshine

originally posted by: Bleeeeep

"Men literally cannot listen as well as women, because a man's mind focuses more on perceiving, or understanding a thing, instead of feeling, and becoming a thing. Men cannot multitask as well as women, because they are so singularly focused on perceiving. Men cannot nurture as well as women, because they think with their mind, instead of feeling with their hearts. And men damn sure can't be as beautiful or tantalizing as women, as their bodies are the image of conception, or fruition, whereas a man's is just the image of a seeder or phallic."


There sure are a lot of men in listening professions (psychologists, psychiatrists). I have known women who were terrible listeners. I'm a woman and I'm terrible at multitasking. I can do one thing at a time. I have known men who were much more maternal than I could ever be. I have known women who took no pleasure in nurturing or caring for others. And I certainly find Keanu Reeves to be beautiful and tantalizing (and I know millions of other women do too!)

You see, there is a gender spectrum. We exist at various parts of the spectrum; nobody is 100% male or 100% female. So I don't think it is smart to generalize too much about males and females.


Sal

I was going to write my own reply to that post, but you did so better than I probably would have. Super star and re-quote because your post was awesome!

a reply to: SallieSunshine

Agreed. That's the bottom line and the points that need to be understood. Excellent.

Also if you start to look at modern history studies, you will find that there is a body of work being developed that show that the saying "behind every great man is a great woman" is more true than people realize. There have been a lot of very strong and powerful women who, while relegated to the female role, were more in partnership with their husbands than history had traditionally realized.

People like Theodora, Cornelia Africana (mother of the Grachii and formidable mind in her own right), Livia Drusilla (third wife of Augustus Caesar and one of his closest advisors), Tzu Hsi who rose from concubine to Imperial favorite to head of the Qing Dynasty for 50 years, Mary Ball Washington who was widowed at 35 and raised 5 children while running the farm in pre-Revolutionary American (one of those kids was George), Martha Washington who was as much a full partner to her husband as it was possible for woman of those times to be and someone has mentioned Abigail Adams who also served as a judge on court to judge Tories.

Just because their roles are not always widely known does not mean they were not powerful, influential women in their own right and respected in their own time.

a reply to: SallieSunshine

The spectrum is inferred -- it is not necessary to mention it. I was not speaking to idiots was I?

You can google what I said, there's studies that you can find (not that you need them.)

The only part that was mine was putting it all together to show how it all correlates to other stereotypical behaviors across biological kingdoms, such as the OP's question of why females are not as intellectually active as males (on average of course, lets not forget to add in the spectrum for the simpletons.)

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

That cannot be measured with any accuracy due to the historical suppression of women in all of those fields.

but by judging from art, musical and literary history, it seems men have the upper hand in creativity.

originally posted by: lonesomerimbaud
a reply to: Antipathy17

Yes, you are right. I did say that if you read when I talked about Alice Walker and Maya Angelo.

I am just saying there is a huge vacuum. There is no longer (in the West at least) that excuse. Women, in Law and Rights, now have equality.

There is a growing impact by Women in Arts, in Politics, in Science, Journalism, etc. There is a vacuum of serious intellectual impact, though.

Men have a voice as old as the hills. Women are historically almost silent. It is a very unhealthy thing.

Also, this raises a serious question of civilization. Now that women have civil empowerment they must realise what comes with this; RESPONSIBILITY.

This is not an attack. I am being brutally honest and not treating women with kid gloves. I am asking them to SPEAK! I am asking them to write their "take" on this life we experience together.

I wrote this because I am not seeing it. I am seeing an unhealthy development unfolding.

In terms of development and civilization communication on the deepest levels of intellect is paramount. That is what drives our evolution. It is important now that we do this intergenderly (damn I had to make that word up, shows the vacuity of language even to describe the genders relating).

I was reading that David Cameron did not even know what Magna Carter was and said when asked by President Obama. We are losing the intellectual plot as cultures. I would put up a signpost saying "hazard ahead", as a warning. Yet who would listen to it? Does anybody really care about such things anymore?

Magna CARTER? Nothing more need be said.