Are we responsible for our own actions?

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posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 11:45 AM
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Maybe part of this discussion should involve "why do we fear
loseing our individuality"? What causes that fear?
I mean what is so bad about being a small flame helping make
up a huge light? And if we are all a part of the whole do we ever
really lose our uniqueness?

Jazzgurl I understood your post just fine and got the jist of
what you're saying.




posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 06:01 AM
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Originally posted by quango
And what are we truly? (I know, I know... connected..
)

Yes! You guessed it. I wouldnt even go so far as to say connected because that denotes that we are seperate entities sharing the same bond. We just are one. The physical blocks this from us.


Originally posted by quango
So is this state of mind attainable pre-death?

I believe so, through the use of psilocybin. I know it's a pretty vaque statement but if you would like me to elaborate, just ask.


Originally posted by quango
Is it possible for me to reject this truth and fool myself into thinking that there is no connection and that I am an individual?

You can choose to reject this truth, but it's widely apparent to all. Like a pink elephant in the middle of your living room. Of course, you can choose to ignore it and pretend its not there, but you know its there. You can feel it.



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 06:17 AM
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Originally posted by Valhall
The fact that I will answer this question differently than others proves our individual abilities to employ free moral agency.

But every person is capable of answering the question with the same answer as you. If we obtain our knowledge from a cosmic consciousness then your 'unique' answer is indeed not unique at all.


Originally posted by Valhall
I think you answer your own question here. The personal distinction comes in the form of what is needed. We do not all have the same needs. We do not all search for, or acquire, the same knowledge.

Not necessarily what is needed. Because personal needs are obsolete. But your 'personal distinction' comes from what is desired upon you. What your community expects. What your environment expects. What certain laws placed within society expects. I would venture to say that nearly 80% of Americans 'decisions' are actually based off of a 'Judeo-Christian' based society/environment/lifestyle.


Originally posted by Valhall
Again, I believe this is pivotal to proving out our individualism. I believe us to be embodiments of all perceived good and evil that exists in the universe as well. But once we employ the "perceived" portion of that statement, we are then bound to admit that each person is a different ratio of those "perceived" goods and evils.

As I stated above. Our actions may seem to one as a sign of individualism. The ability to choose between perceived good and evil is just rooted from our society. Laws that are in place denote this good and evil. Not to mention that word...I forgot what it is...ah yes Religion. Quite frankly, without religion, perception of Good and Evil would be eliminated from our world.



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 06:23 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
It's a daily struggle to establish common ground with the majority of society.

Ive state this above. Society is not representation of humankind. It's based on laws that are based on religion that is based on...well who knows.


Originally posted by saint4God
Cosmic conciousness sounds like a weak excuse not to be responsible for what we do.

It's not an excuse. It's a theory to explain our world.


Originally posted by saint4God
Ask a chief justice what he thinks.

Exactly. Laws placed within our society deny us what is entitled to us.



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 06:41 AM
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Originally posted by Simulacra

Not necessarily what is needed. Because personal needs are obsolete. But your 'personal distinction' comes from what is desired upon you. What your community expects. What your environment expects. What certain laws placed within society expects. I would venture to say that nearly 80% of Americans 'decisions' are actually based off of a 'Judeo-Christian' based society/environment/lifestyle.


As I stated above. Our actions may seem to one as a sign of individualism. The ability to choose between perceived good and evil is just rooted from our society. Laws that are in place denote this good and evil. Not to mention that word...I forgot what it is...ah yes Religion. Quite frankly, without religion, perception of Good and Evil would be eliminated from our world.


But the simple truth is we do. We all decide differently. Forget what code we compare our decisions to that then render it evil or good...we all decide differently. Assuming, for argument's sake, that murder was acceptable, there would still be people who would not take a preference to doing so. Just as eating meat is rendered acceptable now, there are those who choose not to - and not based solely on some logical health reason, but because they have decided to make inherent to their being a belief that eating any animal is abhorrent. I assure you those people pulled knowledge from a different portion of the 'universal base' than I did.

If our decisions were based simply on the religious/cultural moral codes we live in, and America, in your opinion is based on Judeo-Christian code (which I agree with), then there would be no murderers, no rapists, no thieves and no liars. We wouldn't be doing greed-driven machinations to get our neighbors goods and we wouldn't be boinking our neighbor's spouse. We'd all be in church on the Lord's day....and we could say prayers in school.

The simple fact that the Judeo-Christian eutopia above exists nowhere offers evidence that within each of us is the ability to not only "buck the system", but do it in our own individualized manner.

[edit on 12-17-2004 by Valhall]



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 06:41 AM
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Originally posted by jazzgul
Why can we be connected to the same source and yet be so different???

Even if this is the case, then we all should be responsible for the actions of one. The reason being is that we all share this same...vast knowledge. Let's eliminate the notion of 'Good' and 'Evil'. Now if one person picks up a shotgun and starts killing humans, we shouldnt shun the person. We should all be responsible for his/her actions because at the end of the day it is our actions.


Originally posted by jazzgul
I've been thinking about earth as one giant organism (an idea of Gaia -the intelligent being):
If you look at our planet from that perspective, you are able to se billions of different organisms living together in harmony ( except humans -that is a different story). They all behave different, their life patterns are various, yet they share the same chemicals, they "perform" their duties given them by mother nature.

I really havent factored animals into my theory. However I will consider them just...'filler'. Like the background in a portrait.


Originally posted by jazzgul
Humans suppose to share this behavior, but not - we all want to be specially different. We are so busy with being different, that we forget where are we coming from. Many of us are unable to enjoy and live together with nature. We create borders, invent things to protect ourselves from influences which are not welcomed by our standards. Even if we are connected we dont want to be.

- Share the same conscious? It sounds insane, because our thoughts are bounded by fear of slavery - this idea imprinted deep in our minds make us do things to prove we are free - our freedom gives us possibility to do things against us -the circle is closing

I completely agree with you.



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 06:51 AM
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It is the same "all or nothing" mentality you are speaking of, sim, that also is in error with the concept of the divinity of the Christ.

We can be "the knowledge of the universe" and not be "all of the knowledge of the universe", just as (IMHO) the Christ was "the spirit and/or nature of the Father" but not "all of the spirit and/or nature of the Father". Likewise, we can be "the conscious of the Divine" (in my religion the Holy Spirit), but not "all of the conscious of the Divine".

The best analogy I have found for explaining how I see being a part of any more greater aspect of the universe (in my beliefs a part of the greater Divine) is to say

my bedroom is my house, but it is not all of my house. You cannot speak of my bedroom without speaking of my house. But there is so much more to my house than just my bedroom.



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 07:03 AM
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Originally posted by Valhall
If our decisions were based simply on the religious/cultural moral codes we live in, and America, in your opinion is based on Judeo-Christian code (which I agree with), then there would be no murderers, no rapists, no thieves and no liars. We wouldn't be doing greed-driven machinations to get our neighbors goods and we wouldn't be boinking our neighbor's spouse. We'd all be in church on the Lord's day....and we could say prayers in school.

Ok. The assumption among many is that the 'Judeo-Christain code' will manifest into a utopian society. This is what >enter Christ based religion here< preaches. However if one were to closely examine the bible and directly apply it's laws to society you will see something completely different. Judeo-Christain ethics actually propagate the society we are in now. Did you know that the concept of an 'Eye for an Eye' is actually based out of the bible? In fact, our bible literally invented laws of revenge, retaliation, sacrifice, murder, hate...etc. Look at the books of Matthew for example. We hear on the news mothers murdering their kids in the name of God. We deem this as evil and immoral yet the direct idea of sacrificing ones kid came from the book of Abraham.

You're going to make my brain explode Valhall


[edit on 12/17/2004 by Simulacra]



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 07:14 AM
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Originally posted by Simulacra

Ok. The assumption among many is that the 'Judeo-Christain code' will manifest into a utopian society. This is what >enter Christ based religion here< preaches. However if one were to closely examine the bible and directly apply it's laws to society you will see something completely different. Judeo-Christain ethics actually propagate the society we are in now. Did you know that the concept of an 'Eye for an Eye' is actually based out of the bible?


Watch out, incoming! You understand that you're about to have to convince a boat-load of people of this, because there are vast numbers of people who contend the Mosaic laws recorded in the Jewish Holy Scriptures were copied from the Hammurabi Code...right? (I happen to not be one of those people by the way.)

BUT, that aside, you are misapplying the scriptures. There is a strict set of laws - if you want to get down to it 10, if you want to include all of them, then the 10 Commandments and the "laws of living" recorded in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. And no, they don't really propagate violence. In fact, if you want to get down to it, if they were strictly followed, everybody deemed "wrong" according to these laws, would be hard pressed to commit the "wrong" a second time. The death penalty is, in fact, a deterrant to the one being killed.

The examples from Matthew and Genesis (Abraham) are not laws, nor examples of what any one is commanded to do by God and should not be spoken of as "Judeo/Christian" laws.

In response to your comment on the Judeo/Christian utopia - I very well understood when I said it, that the utopic nature would be recognized only by the followers of Judeo/Christian code...lol...my point is that you can take ANY set of beliefs and not find that set of "believers'" utopia...once again evidence that we are individualistic, and free to draw from the well of knowledge as we so desire.





[edit on 12-17-2004 by Valhall]



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 07:25 AM
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Well I promise to respond to everyones post, however its going to take some time.


elaine: I'm going to have to go back to the lab and think about what you just said.

Valhall: Same thing applies to you


[edit on 12/17/2004 by Simulacra]



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 08:08 AM
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Similacra, can you explain in a different way how we might "not" be responsible for our own actions?



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 03:41 PM
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This is one heck of a thread if there ever was one,Sim...& honestly I can't begin to percieve giving you a definate clear reply as to a possibilety of 'A Single Global Consciousness'..It's homogeneous as to asking of God's Definate Exsistence..I Want To Believe..

However if there is such a thing We are in desperate need of some serious Tuning.The way that things are going right now and actually have been scince Man came about,surely dispute any such Harmony,unless as in nature's law of everything else in the Universe, we are'nt meant to be in harmony.Like there's a black & white,a positive and a negative to everything.Things simply would not add up,as in algebra you need a plus and a minus to add up to a positive.This is a complex concpet for us to fully understand.

All human activity, whatever the size of the community, is group activity. It depends upon the ability of human beings to work together consciously in language. Rather than using the dynamics of group psychology, We have to
start from the artistic aspects of language and consciousness. Using many examples and
anecdotes taken from experience, we should be able to see what can go wrong and why.Like you mentioned the Borg as an example They were connected through a Matrix,our connectivity is at best Dogmatic

i.e.There are some conceptual similarities between dogma and the axions used as the starting point for logical analysis. Axioms may be thought of as concepts or 'givens' so fundamental that disputing them would be unimaginable; dogmata are also fundamental (e.g. 'God exists') yet incorporate also the larger set of conclusions that comprise the (religious) field of thought (e.g. 'God created the universe'). Axioms are propositions not subject to proof or disproof, or are statements accepted on their own merits. Dogmata might be thought to be more complex, the product of other proofs. Philosophy and theology find ways to evaluate all statements, whether classified as axioms or dogmata.

The word "Noosphere" was coined in analogy with the "geosphere", the world or layer of dead matter, and the "biosphere", the world or layer of living matter.Beyond and superimposed on these spheres lies another dimensional sphere, the "noosphere", from Greek "noos, nous" = "mind", and "sphaira" = "globe", a figurative envelope of conceptual thought, or reflective impulses produced by the human intellect. It is not scientifically measurable, of course, but its presence is strongly felt and its influence is all-pervading.

In partical physics it was Einstien that coined the term unified field theory,who attempted to reconcile the general theory of relativity with electromagnetism in a single field theory. His quest proved elusive and a unified field theory, sometimes grandiosely referred to as the The Theory Of Everything (TOE, for short), has remained the holy grail for physicists, the long-sought theory which would explain the nature and behavior of all matter.

There is much debate about the intrinsic value of searching for a possibly successful unified field theory. Besides the argument that there may not exist such a theory, some have argued that finding the final theory, that is the ultimate foundation of nature, will not unlock the mystery of the universe.

This is the view that the understanding of the ultimate particles will not yield a complete knowledge of the behaviour of atoms and molecules or some higher level structure. Some physicists (e.g P.W.Anderson.) have argued that large structures undergo collective behaviors which are not most usefully described in terms of the behavior of their constituents and therefore there is no reason to label the lower-level behaviors as more fundamental.

Like most if not all social/enviromental issues this is a concrete problem that cannot be tackled in stricktly objective terms because we belong to mankind and the Biospere.We are subjects of the Earth and we have evolved from her by complex processes we only partly understand but that somehow is recorded in our essence in similar ways that the Earth's history has been recorded within rocks.Neither Earth nor land should be treated as objects even if the widely used science of Descartes and Comte says so.

It has been a great plessure working on this topic.Strangely enough I was dicussing so of these issues I mentioned with my girlfriend yesterday,it started of about the death penalty and what I thought of,or came into my mind I had to diecuss it,FredT posted such a thread yesterday.While watching an episode of CSI,the next favourite show after Star Trek,a thought came in my head and it rapidly evoluted into something I was'nt quite sure I would want to bring up on the site....




posted on Dec, 18 2004 @ 01:26 AM
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Originally posted by elaine
Being aware of the cosmic consciousness does not mean that
we are all alike.

Regardless, it does strike a notable similarity. That all our actions stem from this pool of cosmic consciousness. If our actions werent from this vast collection of knowledge then it would suggest that there was another source of consciousness and destroy the idea of consciousness and every perception of the universe. The best analogy I can give you is imagine we are on a team. The action of the individual is directly related to the team. There is no separation.


Originally posted by elaine
Each one of us "translates" it differently.

I somewhat agree with you. Translation is different than innovation, which I don't believe in. Every possible idea/situation/outcome already exist in the CC(Cosmic Consciousness). Thats one of the very definitions of it.


Originally posted by elaine
We each get something different from it or we don't have to
get anything at all.

This is where I don't agree with you. All acquired information in ones life is from the CC. Where else would it come from?


Originally posted by elaine
We don't even have to believe there is a
cosmic consciousness if we don't want to. That's our freewill
at work.

Our disbelief in CC is because of societal/environment/political/economic/environmental/religious influences (i'm sure I left a few out). These factors influence which portions of the CC we will obtain our 'knowledge' from. For some, these factors may act as sort of a 'blinder' deceiving us that the CC is not there. Freewill is just another way to say influence. As stated earlier, your 'Free will' is largely based on cultural factors as well as the above influences.

For example, this may seem like a harsh example but the act of beheading is seen as a viable option in some cultures to create change. The insurgent doing the beheading his influenced by the above mentioned factors. His religious states 'XYZ' and his society believes that 'ABC' so in all likely hood he is going to behead a person based not on free will but a variety of influences that act as a precise mathematical calculation to determine his perceived 'Free Will'


Originally posted by elaine
So ultimately, we are all responsible for our own actions.

How can one be responsible when the totality of our actions already exist?


Originally posted by elaine
What really connects us is that we are all humans having a "human
experience" here on earth in this reality. Each "experience" is unique.

What connects us is our CC. Because that is essentially who we are. We are the physical embodiment of the CC. And each human is the Cosmic Embodiment of every other human. The earth only exist in order to deceive us of what we really are. Much greater than we think.


Originally posted by elaine
...instead of negative, destructive, materialistic and greedy

Again, these are merely perceptions based on Cultural/Economic/Political...factors. What is greedy to one culture is seen as 'acceptable' to another. What is seen as 'destructive' to one government is viewed as beneficial to another. As stated above, these are all influenced by the laws of (see above)...whatever.


Originally posted by elaine
easy to be positive all the time, but we should try.

Again, the concept of positive/negative is just the brain polarizing our world into two opposites. Good/Bad, Black/White. What we need to realize is that there is just one thing. That is pure knowledge.



Originally posted by elaine
If the cosmic consciousness is changing then it's probably because
evil is starting to outweigh good. We need to at least balance it or
help the positive outweigh the negative.

As stated above. There is no separation of Good/Evil in the CC (Cosmic Consciousness). It's just knowledge.


Originally posted by elaine
Hope this post doesnt sound too garbled or "hippyfied" for some.
I am not a hippy. I just play one on t.v. (LOL, just kidding).

Don't worry, I'm not really a rabbit.



posted on Dec, 18 2004 @ 01:28 AM
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Originally posted by instar
Similacra, can you explain in a different way how we might "not" be responsible for our own actions?


With a different theory or the one stated on the first post?



posted on Dec, 18 2004 @ 02:04 AM
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Originally posted by Valhall
Watch out, incoming! You understand that you're about to have to convince a boat-load of people of this

Not so far.



Originally posted by Valhall
BUT, that aside, you are misapplying the scriptures.

I really don't want this to turn into a religious debate (because it's an endless argument). However I do want to say that the application of any scripture in regards to well...anything is based solely on perception (these are metaphorical documents, not historical).


Originally posted by Valhall
And no, they don't really propagate violence. In fact, if you want to get down to it, if they were strictly followed, everybody deemed "wrong" according to these laws, would be hard pressed to commit the "wrong" a second time.

I believe the polarization of Good/Evil in itself propagates these problems. The Bible is obviously notorious for this.


Originally posted by Valhall
The death penalty is, in fact, a deterrent to the one being killed.

But it's not a efficient deterrent because there are still people being killed from the death penalty every month. Therefore I will have to go with the simple fact that it's more punishment as opposed to a deterrence.



Originally posted by Valhall
The examples from Matthew and Genesis (Abraham) are not laws, nor examples of what any one is commanded to do by God and should not be spoken of as "Judeo/Christian" laws.

Yet the Bible is in sense an overly large instructional manual on how to live ones life. I understand that the 'Ten Laws' resonate strongly throughout it and are the most notable rules, however there are many 'lessons' that are spread throughout the Bible, including passages from Matthew, Abraham, as well as any other book.


Originally posted by Valhall
my point is that you can take ANY set of beliefs and not find that set of "believers'" utopia...

But you still find a set up beliefs (regardless of whether they are Judeo-Christian or not) that eventually lead to a goal of a humans perceived 'Utopia'. And as mentioned before, these beliefs, while may be perceived as an element of Free Will, are directly related to Socio/Economic/Religious/Political...etc factors.

NOTE: My initial intention was to not turn this thread into a religious debate. These arguments are perpetual and they will go on forever.



posted on Dec, 18 2004 @ 02:30 AM
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Originally posted by Horus_Re
This is one heck of a thread if there ever was one


And that was one heck of a post. I've never read anything like it. There is nothing for me to answer but I do agree with the whole of your statement. I really wish I had a longer response but I just...don't
You got a 'Way Above' nomination.



posted on Dec, 18 2004 @ 06:32 AM
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Originally posted by Simulacra

Originally posted by Horus_Re
This is one heck of a thread if there ever was one


And that was one heck of a post. I've never read anything like it. There is nothing for me to answer but I do agree with the whole of your statement. I really wish I had a longer response but I just...don't
You got a 'Way Above' nomination.


Sim..I found the site..
this one's for you!! thanks for your complement...

www.sacredsites.com...

This way you can atleast connect to the Earth and Universe...enjoy!!


I have the book written by Martin Gray.there's a few..Check out the whole site..Interesting..

"Humanism is a democratic and ethical life stance, which affirms that human beings have the right and responsibility to give meaning and shape to their own lives.

It stands for the building of a more humane society through an ethic based on human and other natural values in the spirit of reason and free inquiry through human capabilities.

It is not theistic, and it does not accept supernatural views of reality.''

..


[edit on 18-12-2004 by Horus_Re]



posted on Dec, 18 2004 @ 07:04 AM
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YES, we are all responsible for our own actions, since we are aware of ourself, and of our actions. The age varies, from what a child is fully aware of what he/she is doing, and its consequences. Legally of course, at the age of 16/18 a person is punished for commiting a crime.

I say, whatever a person has achieved in his life, he is responsible for that, and it is always the easiest thing to blame others for unsuccessful achievements. Well, these people lack responsibility, and should graduate again.

It is not a question, that a person is also responsible for creating long lasting environment to achieve short term goals. Usually people blame their bad circumstances for various problems, and just get away with their stupidity.

Thinking that this might be a paranormal issue, I still believe that any form of influence should be properly handled, because the person responsible for the actions is definately YOU.



posted on Dec, 18 2004 @ 07:49 AM
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i dunno if anyway has posted this yet because i cbf reading the forum but this is what i believe.

we arent responsible for our own action. From the first instance of the big bang, everything that would happen to today was already pre-determined. From where each atom was moving. Quantum physics. If you know where every atom is heading, you can predict the future.
And plus, its the chemical balances in our body that also determine actions. no conscience or free will.

well that my theory



posted on Dec, 18 2004 @ 07:54 AM
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sim,

As far as I'm concerned we are not having a religious debate, so unless you are feeling that way I do not believe your thread will turn to that.

But it is the difference, even as applied to the interpretation and even acceptance of what any "religious document" (the bible as one) by the individual that drives home that we are not a symbiotic unified conscience.





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