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Religion, Scripture and logical thinking

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posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 07:53 PM
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a reply to: NOTurTypical


But the scholarly consensus is that the attributed authors are the ones who we attribute them to today

Depends on the 'scholars' you consider to be real.

Stop reading Strobel.




posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 07:58 PM
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a reply to: Akragon




Jesus confirmed this fact.... He said specifically John IS Elijah... He didn't say he was in the spirit of him...


No, the angel said that to John's father. John the Baptist had the spirit and anointing of Elijah:


"Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. 14"And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother’s womb. 16"And he will turn back many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God. 17"And it is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous; so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord," ~ Luke 1:13-17



Jesus was saying that John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy of Malachi 54:5 from the OT:




"Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord."



edit on 28-1-2015 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 07:58 PM
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a reply to: Akragon


God is beyond anything that our limited human minds can comprehend...

Jesus can have the essence of God and not be God in the flesh...

YEP.
You and I DO have the same essence as he did. "You are all gods".


edit on 1/28/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 08:01 PM
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originally posted by: NOTurTypical

No problem. I don't think God could have been speaking to the angels, they could not crate with Him. They themselves are created beings. And likewise would not have His image. Only man is made in the image of God.

"Let US make man in OUR image".


That's not a bad interpretation, but angelic beings in Scripture tend to either freak people out or appear like humans themselves, so it's not impossible that they bear a strong semblance to – presuming the "image of God" refers to our physical selves. While not detracting from the reflection on the physical shape (because I don't think man's shape is random!) I think that when we were "created in God's image," it was (at least in part) referring to our natures: to love, to seek companionship, and especially to create.
There are a couple of other parts in Scripture where God does stuff in conjunction with a divine council of some sort (the "Watchers" in Daniel, for instance) so it's not unprecedented.



But you are correct, the OT is littered with subtle hints to the theology proper of God, in the NT is quite overt. My teo favorite OT appearances of the Son of God is with Abraham and Sarah when He came with two angels and spoke with them, then the angels went off to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. And the other is when the Son meets Joshua outside of Jerhico with the flaming sword. You can tell it's deity because he demands Joshua remove his shoes because he is standing on "holy ground".


I like the fourth man in the fiery furnace



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 08:04 PM
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originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Akragon




Jesus confirmed this fact.... He said specifically John IS Elijah... He didn't say he was in the spirit of him...


No, the angel said that to John's father. John the Baptist had the spirit and anointing of Elijah:


"Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. 14"And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother’s womb. 16"And he will turn back many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God. 17"And it is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous; so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord," ~ Luke 1:13-17



Jesus was saying that John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy of Malachi 54:5 from the OT:




"Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord."




im not denying that... but they didn't know it was the reincarnation of Elijah until Jesus said so... even John denied it, but only Jesus would have actually known the truth...

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.




posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 08:04 PM
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originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: NOTurTypical


But the scholarly consensus is that the attributed authors are the ones who we attribute them to today

Depends on the 'scholars' you consider to be real.

Stop reading Strobel.


Not sure what that means, Strobel if you mean "Lee Strobel" is a journalist and pastor, not a scholar of the NT. My favorite scholar and textual critic is is Dr. Bruce M. Metzger.



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 08:06 PM
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originally posted by: NOTurTypical
It appears to me that you are confusing the books of the NT and their authors with the pseudographical Gnostic texts discovered at Nag Hammadi.

I admit I am not as well versed as I would like to be when it comes to the subject of Biblical authorship, but I do not believe I am confusing the New Testament with the Nag Hammadi texts though.



That's not accurate at all. The huge majority of scholars don't argue about authorship except for maybe the book of Hebrews. And with the latest dating methods and equipment the later dates of some of these fragments are being moved up in time to earlier in the 1st century, not later.

Perhaps you haven't looked into scholarship in the last 15 or so years?

Maybe you would be willing to provide some sources for your information as to who wrote the Gospels and when?



Well for one thing they are summaries, another point is people don't study them intently enough and assume they are contradictory. Perfect example is the Olivet Discourse recorded in Matthew and Luke. On appearance they seem to be two accounts of the exact same teaching, but a careful examination of the words you realize they were two different ones. One was to the masses, and one was privately to the inner circle of disciples. One highlights the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD for the most part and the other highlights the destruction of Jerusalem in the end times. And finally, slight detail variations by eye-witnesses is a sign that they DID NOT collude together to form a story. That's common in court, if all the witnesses for the defense are perfectly in line with every detail any prosecutor with his weight in salt would immediately object to their testimony on the grounds they colluded with one another.

They do have contradictions in them, as does the entire Bible. For the record, before I was an atheist I was a Christian. So I have studied the Bible, prayed about it (to no avail), and what have you. Just saying that so you are aware I am not one who brushes it all aside without any real knowledge of what it's about. My path to atheism was a long and slow one.



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 08:07 PM
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a reply to: Akragon





but they didn't know it was the reincarnation of Elijah until Jesus said so...


No, Jesus was affirming only that John fulfilled the prophecy in Malachi 4:5. The angel who announced to John's father that he would be born said John would have the spirit and anointing of Elijah. Elisha also had the same anointing, but a "double-portion" which he asked for.



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 08:07 PM
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originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Akragon


God is beyond anything that our limited human minds can comprehend...

Jesus can have the essence of God and not be God in the flesh...

YEP.
You and I DO have the same essence as he did. "You are all gods".



I actually think Jesus was different then the rest of us...

Quite true we all have a spark of the divine within... Jesus remembered being with the Father... being taught by him and in his presence... No one else has ever been blessed with that gift...

That why Jesus knew everything he did... He retained his memory of God...




posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 08:09 PM
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originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Akragon





but they didn't know it was the reincarnation of Elijah until Jesus said so...


No, Jesus was affirming only that John fulfilled the prophecy in Malachi 4:5. The angel who announced to John's father that he would be born said John would have the spirit and anointing of Elijah. Elisha also had the same anointing, but a "double-portion" which he asked for.


We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point my friend...

You prefer your translation of what he said... I just prefer what he said specifically...

IF you reject reincarnation you would never see what he's saying anyways...




posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 08:14 PM
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a reply to: WakeUpBeer




Maybe you would be willing to provide some sources for your information as to who wrote the Gospels and when?


I read the scholarship of Dr. Bruce Metzger, considered the greatest scholar and textual critic of the 20th century.




Just saying that so you are aware I am not one who brushes it all aside without any real knowledge of what it's about. My path to atheism was a long and slow one.


So why not agnosticism? Even the great Anthony Flew understood his atheistic stance wasn't logical and had to amend it. He never accepted Jesus, but he had to abandon his atheism.



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 08:17 PM
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a reply to: Akragon




You prefer your translation of what he said... I just prefer what he said specifically..


But what He said specifically doesn't hurt my position. However, your position refutes what the angel said to John's father in Luke. That his son would come with the spirit and anointing of Elijah. A few prophets under the old covenant had the anointing of Elijah. And some the anointing of Jeremiah.

Here is a good read to maybe help you understand what the Bible and Jesus were saying:

CARM.org



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 08:19 PM
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a reply to: Akragon




Quite true we all have a spark of the divine within.


I think you are confusing this with Transformers man.




posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 08:20 PM
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a reply to: Akragon




And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.


Yes, the fulfillment of Malachi4:5.



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 08:20 PM
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a reply to: NOTurTypical

So the angel said he would come with the spirit of Elijah and you don't see that as a reincarnation of Elijah?

Ok man...like I said believe whatever floats your boat..

I find it rather obvious...


I think you are confusing this with Transformers man.


LOL... nuuu...

Ye are gods and children of the most high...

Again, its pretty obvious...


edit on 28-1-2015 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 08:23 PM
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a reply to: StalkerSolent




I think that when we were "created in God's image," it was (at least in part) referring to our natures: to love, to seek companionship, and especially to create.


I think it's that we are also three parts making up 1 person. A body, a soul, and a spirit.




I like the fourth man in the fiery furnace



Yes, that was another favorite. I had forgotten that one, I need to read from Daniel again here soon, it's been too long.



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 08:25 PM
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a reply to: Akragon




So the angel said he would come with the spirit of Elijah and you don't see that as a reincarnation of Elijah?


No. Nowhere does the Bible teach reincarnation. What happened with John the Baptist is what happened with Elisha when Elijah died. Elisha received his anointing, and it was even a double-portion which Elisha asked God for. Elisha and Elijah were alive together at the same time before Elijah died.



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 08:26 PM
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a reply to: NOTurTypical


The teaching of reincarnation is against the Old Testament. Therefore, Jesus was not teaching that John the Baptist was Elijah reincarnated


I don't think you've ever offered a link I agree with bro...

The first line... Reincarnation was not taught in the OT so he can't be talking about that... LOL

Reincarnation was and has always been a belief in Judaism... Its just not something that is a regular occurrence according to them...


No. Nowhere does the Bible teach reincarnation.


yes... it was taught gaurenteed... it was removed because it takes away the power of the church and gives power back to the individual

And by denying it you put limits on God....

IF God can do anything and is omnipotent as you believe... reincarnation must also exist

Funny though... I figured you would be one of the people that believe Elijah didn't actually die...


edit on 28-1-2015 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 08:32 PM
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a reply to: Akragon




Reincarnation was and has always been a belief in Judaism...


Which "Judaism"?

Mosaic? Pharisaical? Talmudic? the Kabbalah?



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 08:35 PM
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a reply to: NOTurTypical


He was still a man, as were all the other humans born before John.

Still a man. As was Jesus.
As were all the other gifted and spiritually evolved humans born before (and after) him (Jesus).

Just like he said: You are all gods. You can do what I have done and more.




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