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Math is the way to determine the "logic". 1+1 is always 2 and simply because it will never be 5 or anything else, shows that logic is not chaotic. Even though our universe derived from chaos. While I am a proponent to evolution, "logic" can not evolve. It just is. Therefore, one could conclude that "logic" came before the big bang and the chaos that ensued. And it is the logic in "math" which has or is consciousness.
In that case, and since the idea is so old, why waste time devising new arguments against it?
originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: FlySolo
Math is the way to determine the "logic". 1+1 is always 2 and simply because it will never be 5 or anything else, shows that logic is not chaotic. Even though our universe derived from chaos. While I am a proponent to evolution, "logic" can not evolve. It just is. Therefore, one could conclude that "logic" came before the big bang and the chaos that ensued. And it is the logic in "math" which has or is consciousness.
But math and logic have evolved and continues to evolve. And no, no logic or math has consciousness, nor did it exist before man started counting with his fingers.
I want to add a thought to all this. What if there's a "wall" in the progress of species? What if at some point there's no more ground to use, no more knowledge to learn? What happens when we've perhaps colonized the whole universe and have leanred everything there's to know and there's nowhere else to go?
Is it possible?
really? so you are telling us that before man invented numbers, beryllium actually had six protons and 14 neutrons? perhaps electrons carried positive charges and protons carried negative charges. or maybe water was made from some boron atoms and a magnesium or two. because screw logic, it hadnt been invented yet.
originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: TzarChasm
i find it amusing that you criticize the devising of arguments, and in the same swing you redevise an argument you have devised many times in the past.
How is it "redevised" if it is the same argument?
originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: TzarChasm
really? so you are telling us that before man invented numbers, beryllium actually had six protons and 14 neutrons? perhaps electrons carried positive charges and protons carried negative charges. or maybe water was made from some boron atoms and a magnesium or two. because screw logic, it hadnt been invented yet.
Why would I say that?
And no, no logic or math has consciousness, nor did it exist before man started counting with his fingers.
originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: TzarChasm
just a handful of digits to describe invisible stuff in the air.
Where do you think the word "digit" comes from?
originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: TzarChasm
I said math didn't exist, not protons. The only thing appearing out of thin air is your reasoning.
originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: TzarChasm
The abacus was the first abacus.
but even the math that one might use to describe the relationship between two particular protons is existent regardless of whether you have the language or technical prowess to write it down.
and when that relationship reaches a certain level, your lack of understanding or communication will not stop that rock from knocking you a good one. velocity, impact, tissue density, surface angle, the dimensions of the impacting object, all of those relationships can be expressed numerically and will factually explain the results of the poor idiot being smacked. subatomic physics translates to autopsy figures because numbers dont just change. they follow rules. rules that the whole universe obeys. otherwise, according to your logic, black holes would just spontaneously emerge and the earth would go interstellar figure skating because the numbers that would dictate the suicidal nature of such a course just dont friggin' matter.