Kochs and Walmart Fight to Stop Solar Panels

If you don't want them to tax you for solar....then unhook from the grid. As long as you are hooked to the grid you're still in their game. I realize that's not a feasible option for most people but it's reality. If you owned the power grid and it got to the point where you were paying a significant amount of other people for the use of your grid what would you do ? But if you have a totally independent power supply you can tell them to take a hike. Then when they come to your house to try and make you pay tax for having solar panels you stick a 12 ga in their face and say... Bye!! If they still don't listen then it's time for civil war.

a reply to: CranialSponge

Didn't know about that case. Can't find info. Got links?

Here's pretty much all I found with a quick search:

Manitoba Hydro has been assessing the feasibility of wind power since the early 1990s.
Manitoba’s former energy minister is slamming Manitoba Hydro over their lack of investment in wind power.

a reply to: HarryJoy

So you think people who have rainbarrels should pay fees or unhook from the grid? Like when the consortium privatized the rain in Cochabamba - and started charging fees and fining people for collecting rainwater?

It's a ruse.

They're trying to privatize the SUN.




ng Thin edge of the wedge. Dangerous.

a reply to: soficrow

As far as I know, the case was swept under the rug really fast.

It was apparently briefly mentioned in the Free Press, and then was heard from no more.

This was maybe 15+ years ago ?

Sorry no links.

I knew the family by way of a snowmobiling group of people I used to ride with back in the day.

That's the only way I know about it, because I don't ever remember reading about it in the papers. But apparently the family tried to bring it to the public's attention by contacting the Free Press. Lo and behold, I guess the Free Press stepped away from it too... or got their hands slapped real quick the minute they published the story.

Oh shock, oh surprise.


Edit to add: But it's definately not hearsay, because I personally witnessed the take down of the wind turbine (snowmobiling in the area and stopping to chat). They had it mounted in the front of their property across the highway from the floodway. The thing was massive, not your standard "farmer" windmill... but an actuall full fledged wind turbine.

Governmental control of energy and utilities in general is the reason the big corporations are in the game in the first place.

Any one making more energy than they can use should be able to sell that energy to anyone who wants to buy it. Right now, a home owner can only sell energy back to a utility-- at a lower rate than he could sell it to his neighbor.

Paying higher taxes is not as bad as submitting all control of energy selling to the government-- which goes unthought of.

Mind control is evident.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Governmental control of energy and utilities in general is the reason the big corporations are in the game in the first place.

Erm. No. Governments developed services to serve the people, and so people/nations would own their own assets. It was only after the infrastructure was built and paid-for that corporations wanted the profits. And now that infrastructures are failing from lack of maintenance, governments think corporations will fix things. Stupid, I know. Just look at the airline industry to see where that will go.

a reply to: soficrow

If you were using a water system built and owned by someone else to distribute/sell your rain water then yes. I would say you are at the mercy of the one that owns the system.

a reply to: HarryJoy

You make a great case for cooperative community-owned systems. 'Cuz we all know corporations just pull the profits then hit the ratepayers with increases for upgrades and maintenance. Or let the planes fall from the sky. Or let the people get sick and mutate.

Kinda like the original Total Recall. And the Chemical Castration Pandemic.

originally posted by: soficrow

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Governmental control of energy and utilities in general is the reason the big corporations are in the game in the first place.

Erm. No. Governments developed services to serve the people, and so people/nations would own their own assets. It was only after the infrastructure was built and paid-for that corporations wanted the profits. And now that infrastructures are failing from lack of maintenance, governments think corporations will fix things. Stupid, I know. Just look at the airline industry to see where that will go.

People exist and do things. Governments are only people who claim the right to rule by force.

The current utility tableau was made by government mandated monopolies. (All monopolies are government made)

During the late nineteenth century, gas and electric companies were subject to limited regulatory oversight; by the early twentieth century, they were subject to burdensome municipal regulation; and by 1940, most gas and electric companies were subject to state and federal regulation (Stigler and Friedland 1962; Troesken 1996).

Regime Change and Corruption pdf download only

The government was used or allowed to usurp control of energy production from private businesses.

Government is the source and enforcement of all monopolies.

Corruption and Competition are inversely proportional.
Corruption and Competition pdf download only. Or maybe that's just my new computer.

a reply to: soficrow

Why would solomon do this? To me it would seem that a longterm harvest would be better than wham bam.

I live in a 34 foot motorhome and can get no rebates for going solar.

Half my system was built into the motorhome when it was built.

I have a 12 volt lighting and power system for fans for heating and ventilation.
So adding solar panels into the system is a no brainer.

As for deep cycle batteries there are different types.
There are deep cycle batteries that are made for golf carts, RVs and other uses like that.
These are junk built to fail in about 3 to 5 years.

Then there are industrial grade deep cycle batteries that are built to last for 10 to 20 years.
These are built for electric forklifts. mine locomotives and for backup power for phone company and railroad equipment.

The last mine i worked at had a mine locomotive that the battery was built in 1974 and I was still using it in 2002 and it was Still putting out 80% of rated Amp hours

Big companies demand batteries that will last for 10+ years.
But the general public does not demand and the battery companies will not build long life batteries for use in solar systems.

a reply to: deadeyedick

It's a ruse - a ploy to privatize sunshine. Same way Bolivia privatized water in Cochabamba and the consortium privatized rainwater - charging fees when people put out barrels and pails to collect it.




sucks to be rich

originally posted by: Grimpachi

originally posted by: Iwinder

The cost depends on if you are doing it yourself or if you have a contractor instal it and on how big a system you get. You also factor in any rebates you can qualify for and how it will affect taxes depending on self instal or contracted.

a reply to: Grimpachi

You can't do the install yourself if you are talking a serious solar array, your homeowners insurance will say goodbye well before you even plug it in. Any rebates for installing one is tax payers money paying taxpayers to install a loosing system.

Try disposing dozens of batteries without having to pay the environmental fee, then you have to buy dozens more. just to dispose of those battery banks again and again....It is a lose lose situation for the average home owner.

A self install system iffy to say the least, if you don't require a electrician then it aint going to run your sump pump.
Lets not forget the panels fail a certain percentage every year from the installation date, so do your batteries.....its all down hill from the get go.

Regards, Iwinder

I am not going to have anything to do with batteries and I know all about losing efficacy each year which is negligible to the payoff. I don't have a sump pump there is no need here. My state doesn't have rebates but power companies offer $2 per watt which to qualify for would have to be done by a contractor.

As for insurance it would be the same as if I were to roof my own house it would have to be inspected and certified. Federally with taxes I can deduct 30% of what was spent on the system so if I spend 20K I get about a 6K tax credit. Which means a 20K system casts me about 14K. Solar improvements are 100% Property Tax Exempt and I will have increased the value of my home by about 18K.

Here is a rundown from a site with a system that costs $17,500.

A typical installation consisting of 5 kW of solar panels in Florida should start at about $17,500, according to Clay Electric. That might sound like a lot, but don’t freak – that’s gonna drop fast.
Even without the state’s on-again off-again rebate programs, the feds remain steadfast in their support of solar power and the people who love it. You get a 30% federal tax credit, reducing the cost by $5,250.
Next, we subtract your first year’s energy savings, which we estimate to be about $796.
Finally, subtract that tiny bump from OUL’s net metering agreement, and you get an extra $332 per year off your costs, bringing the first-year total to just $11,122.
With a conservative estimate for the future rise of electricity prices, you can expect your new solar power system to pay for itself in about 10 years.
In addition to those direct wallet-fattening savings, you also increased your home value by $15,912

www.solarpowerrocks.com...

Overall I can expect a 11.6% return on investment and it doesn't cost the taxpayers a dime.


I suggest you take some time to research solar as each year it has changed a bit and you seem to be seriously behind the times as far as information on them goes.

edit to add:

I don't think my state will add a tax described in the OP. What the power companies do here is charge $0.14 and buy back at $0.05 in most areas it changes according to your provider.

Good points and I have stored them in my head :-)
What is the life span of your solar panels? I am really curious at to how long they last now?
Not everybody lives in Florida and for us its been a year plus since we have enjoyed more than 3 sunny days in a row.

Thanks for your informative post above for sure.
Regards, Iwinder

a reply to: ANNED

You have brought up one of the greatest rip-offs taking place nowadays. Batteries !! .....they are junk you're lucky to get a couple of yrs out of a new car battery nowadays. I don't know what they are doing different but whatever it is, is really screwing over the consumer. The problem is... as with most of these things they know you have to have it and they know there is nothing you can do about it. I also have to believe that they have better battery technology then what they have told us. It is an area that needs great improvement in order for us to have the type of energy independence that we want.

a reply to: Iwinder

Your welcome. Solar is great for where I live but it looks as though from the site I posted the states where solar isn't as strong as here they have better programs for those purchasing solar which definitely offsets the costs more.

As for degradation of the panels the rule used to be 1% per year but that has also changed. It will also depend on the type of panel as well overall no one can say past 25 years as there is not enough information.

degradation rate is less than 0.5% for panels made before 2000, and less than 0.4% for panels made after 2000. That means that a panel manufactured today should produce 92% of its original power after 20 years, quite a bit higher than the 80% estimated by the 1% rule.

www.engineering.com...

Most panels have 25 year warranties but the ones I am leaning towards have 30 year warrantee.

Here is a site with info on panels manufactured before year 2000 energyinformative.org...

The majority of manufacturers offer the 25-year standard solar panel warranty, which means that power output should not be less than 80% of rated power after 25 years.

a reply to: Grimpachi

a few months ago you could get new panels 30yr for about a quarter per watt. Then the all powerful obama passed a new tax and now they are back up to .75 and up per watt.

i have found that sunelectric com has good prices

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: Iwinder

Your welcome. Solar is great for where I live but it looks as though from the site I posted the states where solar isn't as strong as here they have better programs for those purchasing solar which definitely offsets the costs more.

As for degradation of the panels the rule used to be 1% per year but that has also changed. It will also depend on the type of panel as well overall no one can say past 25 years as there is not enough information.

degradation rate is less than 0.5% for panels made before 2000, and less than 0.4% for panels made after 2000. That means that a panel manufactured today should produce 92% of its original power after 20 years, quite a bit higher than the 80% estimated by the 1% rule.

www.engineering.com...

Most panels have 25 year warranties but the ones I am leaning towards have 30 year warrantee.

Here is a site with info on panels manufactured before year 2000 energyinformative.org...

The majority of manufacturers offer the 25-year standard solar panel warranty, which means that power output should not be less than 80% of rated power after 25 years.

That actually does not sound too bad till you consider the cloudy days. From the link you provided I read this tid bit....

What Causes Degradation? Crystalline silicon modules located in extreme climates showed high degradation rates. For very cold climates, panels subjected to heavy wind and snow loads suffered the most. On the other hand, panels in similar climates that were installed in a facade, eliminating the snow load, had very low rates of degradation.

That would be a factor for us, actually as I type this it is Minus 19 C with heavy snow :-(
But with that said I thank you for the information, you are correct the life span has improved now if they could just drop the cost to something reasonable that would be a bonus.
But for people who deal with winter I think its a lose lose situation, If we see the sun 7 days from now till March we count ourselves lucky.

Regards, Iwinder

a reply to: jacobe001

They are really going to hate the Lockheed Fusion Reactor due on store shelves in 4 or so more years!

a reply to: deadeyedick

Thanks for that. I looked them up and bookmarked them. $0.69 to $0.28 a watt is pretty cheap. Some are more but they have them for different environments like sand and salt which makes sense for coatings.

a reply to: Grimpachi

From my exp. it is very wise to get a good converter.

With the right converter you can expand in the future.

I bought 10 used rejects from then for just over a hundred dollars.

It took some soldering and a few ebay trips for diodes and such but you can not put a price on exp..