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Moral obligation to homelessness

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posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 05:48 PM
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Two members of my extended family are "homeless" because they have burned every bridge with every single person who has offered them help. They have lied and stolen from us---repeatedly. They have made the choice to be homeless because "nobody is going to tell me what to do", which means that they were told that they couldn't be drunk and disorderly in the home they were being provided free of charge.
For the first couple of years they managed to play lots of family members with their sad stories, tales of hard luck, etc. but it became very clear to most of the family at some point that they have no intention of even attempting to fit into a civilized society. Nope, they want to live in a society where when they vomit/urinate on Grandma's couch because they got dog drunk, Grandma cleans up the couch and says, "Here, honey, here's another tenner for you so you can buy yourself another bottle and do it again." And if Granny doesn't give them the tenner, they just steal something from her that they can pawn.
I'm fully aware that not all homeless have this attitude but to blindly toss out that we all must be morally obligated to all homeless people----is simply ridiculous. Where does their moral obligation come into this equation? What moral obligations do they have toward those who are attempting to help? There must be a balance.




posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 05:55 PM
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I have gotten burned multiple times where i live by giving money to a homeless person only to watch them walk over to a liquor store and come out with beer, hard liquor or cigarettes.

Since I don't believe in drinking, smoking or doing drugs it is not my responsibility to enable someone else to waste their life.

I have no issue giving a homeless person food but they cant get money for other things from other people.



posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 02:26 PM
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originally posted by: Tangerine
a reply to: GiulXainx

That's quite a rant. So you spent $120+ dollars buying cigarettes for people. It seems to me that there are lots of ways that money could be better spent: on food,



I have worked at hotels, entertainment venues like coors field, sandwich shops, and various other food places. And what every shop does is throw away their excess. Anything they did not sell they toss out. Bread, no matter how you slice it, is still good for a week. Yet they throw all the excess away on the very same day it was baked.




on shelter,



People continue to miss payments on houses they bought back when they "had money." And have not yet been properly evicted. The last house I rented from had money coming from a church to help one person live. Whilist he is not jobless. He lied to a church for free rent. Worst of all he continues to traffic drugs via forged prescription papers. Yet all the police could do was take my statement.




on clothing, on looking for a job,



The two homeless shelters I have been through have advisors. These advisors help you on creating an "exit from homless strategy." Part of this strategy is to sign up for every temp agency. In my area there is 8 different temp agencies including two of them requiring you to show up at 4 am to obtain a position for anything. But you want to know what is the hardest thing to obtain? Work clothes. Can't work unless you are in uniform. And you don't know what work is available at some of these places until it is too late. I have wasted over 200 dollars on different work shirts, hats, shoes, pants, and gloves. But you know what sucks? Every job has something they require you to wear that you don't have. And if you miss even one detail you are sent home. The worst part about most service jobs is having an ironed shirt. I've been sent home a lot for a wrinkled shirt quite a few times. So guess what I have to buy, and at the same time risk getting stolen. A SHIRT IRON.




on the desperately needed board games.



I know of so many people who bought a board game, or six, who never play it. Only to find out some years down the road they just put it in a trash bin. Same with movies.

Why not donate your old used up and neglected # to a shelter? Oh thats right there is that other perception created in movies where the homeless shelter has millions of them.

Notice how in your reply you perceived it as me telling you to do our shopping for us? What I am expressing to you is that you will never donate anything unless it survived 8 garage sales, turned down by every family member, and you skip the homeless because you think we have 8 of them. Not even good will stocks it unless it generates money.




Maybe the addicts should stop smoking. Ever think of that? Yes, you can bet I'll scoff at you if you suggest that I donate a pack of cigarettes to a homeless person. Not going to happen.



How much does it cost to stop an addict from using? How much does nicorret gum cost? How about those e cigs people can never sell in a second hand market?

And above all... how do you get an addict to stop using without costing money huh? Tell me brcause I would love to know the secret you possess to ending someone's addiction once and for all. Please tell us. Because if your answer is "don't do drugs ever" then you are living in a fantasy buddy. That doesn't end addiction.



I'm also not donating alcohol



I never said to donate alcohol in any of my posts. But it seems like at one time you did donate alcohol to a homeless person.




or other drugs.



I sure hope you mean marijuana, opiates, and illegal substances. Because if you mean you can't donate some Tylenol pm, nyquil, robitusson, or other flu, cold, cough, and fever medicine.... then I hope you never become homeless. Better yet I hope a sick homeless person comes in contact with you and end up with the shingles.




Cigarettes and weed have the highest value inside homeless shelters to "keep people normal"? It's not normal to value cigarettes and weed over all else. I have no idea what it's like to be awakened by someone coughing because they're a smoker or asking for weed? Dang right I don't. And If I did I certainly wouldn't give either to them.



Wait until the day you face it yourself. You will be the Roger who gets kicked out because you can't sleep with everyone else snoring as your first complaint. And then start a riot for being a rat about who smokes weed, cigarrets, or stole the hand sanitizer out of the rest room.




You told us that donating board games to shelters will keep the homeless from going to bars and drinking. Are you kidding? It's not my job to keep the homeless from drinking. It's their job.



I hope you don't work at a bar. I give people an answer on keeping drunk homeless people from causing scenes and immediately it is followed with a conjectured and repulsive reaction.

Another person who fits the stereotype that homeless people pin on you.




I'm very familiar with the operations of the local food bank. It works very efficiently and people who need the food, including the homeless who live in shelters and those who don't, get it. They do have to show up to get it, of course. I guess you expect delivery service.



Our homeless shelter is 15 miles away from most food banks.

So tell me how a homeless person is supposed to get to that food bank if it is that far away. At our shelter we only have bicycles. But not everyone owns one. No one owns a car. Busses don't run to the food banks that actually have food. Our nearest food bank hasn't been able to give out more than ramen noodles. Best part about the noodles is our inability to cook it.




I found your following comment to be hilarious, "But your perception will always be that instant gratification of "oh they have a donation center here" when you should be thinking "oh, I wonder whose job this is to do and how much they pay him for charity work." This comment of yours was preceded by a list of homeless instant gratification demands.



No. It was preceeded by common sense. And simple math. But you made it personal.




Did it occur to you that those people working at the food bank are being paid for actually working and you want to take those jobs from them? Perhaps you could apply to work at the food bank.



They get paid from what they are able to sell before they donate. Because you can't take your donations directly to the source. So you entrust a third party to do it for you. But those wages come from somewhere. And most of the time they sell donations to cover the cost of the truck, gas, and wages for the workers to deliver the goods.

To us we see it as stealing. Stealing donations from us because everyone is lowsy at it. And what we see going in is not what we receive coming out.




I wonder if others feel as I do that you're doing the homeless a disfavor by expressing this attitude.


Suppressing our words doesn't help either.



posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 04:29 PM
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a reply to: GiulXainx

Many businesses routinely throw out food so you spent $120 on cigarettes to give to homeless people? Sorry, but I don't see one justifying the other. Perhaps you could better explain the connection between the two because I missed it. By the way, much food is thrown out (if it's been on a plate, for example) because of health laws. Perhaps the people who run your shelter should ask for the donation of unsold food from those businesses and arrange to pick it up or have it delivered. Perhaps you could volunteer to make the calls on behalf of your shelter.

People miss payments on houses and someone lied to a church to get free rent so you spent $120 on cigarettes to give to homeless people? Sorry, but I don't see the connection between those two things.

Many jobs require special clothing that you don't have so you spent $120 on cigarettes to give to homeless people? Sorry, but wouldn't it have made more sense to save the money to use to buy that special clothing when you find a job? You have to buy an iron to iron shirts for work. Well, so does everyone else unless they buy shirts that don't require ironing. Perhaps you could buy one and donate it to the homeless shelter so it's available for everyone to use. Perhaps you could create a list of things that would be useful for the shelter to have and either arrange for the shelter to call churches and other groups or do so yourself.

You flat-out accused me of not donating anything to a homeless shelter unless it has survived 8 garage sales and everyone else I know has rejected it. That's quite a fanciful accusation not to mention an outrageous expression of entitlement that most people understandably find offensive.

How much does it cost an addict to stop using? I don't know but that $120 you spent on cigarettes helped them to stay addicted. I know people who have stopped smoking after years by putting down a half-filled pack of cigarettes and saying, "No more." It's called will power. Until the last decade or so, that's how everyone who quit smoking quit smoking. You really don't need the help of the pharmaceutical industry, a physician, a psychiatrist, an aromatherapist a masseuse, and a spa to stop.

As for hard drugs/alcohol, I believe addicts will forever be addicts. At best, they'll exchange one addictive substance or activity for another. Some of them exchange drugs for religion but they're still addicts. That's why I think homeless addicts/alcoholics should be separated from the rest of the homeless population with the goal of protecting society from them.

Your comment, "Better yet I hope a sick homeless person comes in contact with you and end up with the shingles" says far more about you than about me.

Here's another comment from you, "Wait until the day you face it yourself. You will be the Roger who gets kicked out because you can't sleep with everyone else snoring as your first complaint. And then start a riot for being a rat about who smokes weed, cigarrets, or stole the hand sanitizer out of the rest room." Again, it says far more about you than about me.

You hope I don't work at a bar? Huh? Another of your comments, "I hope you don't work at a bar. I give people an answer on keeping drunk homeless people from causing scenes and immediately it is followed with a conjectured and repulsive reaction."

My reaction was not conjecture. It's fact: it's not my responsibility to keep anyone from getting drunk. There's a solution for keeping drunk homeless people from causing scenes: it's called institutionalizing homeless alcoholics and addicts to protect society from them and to separate them from the homeless who will actually benefit from social services. It will also encourage people to have less disdain for the homeless because right now, when most people think of the homeless, they think of gutter drunks and addicts with an enormous sense of self-entitlement.

If your homeless shelter is 15 miles away from the nearest food bank, I assume that food is delivered to you or you'd all be starving. If it's not being delivered, take it up with the people who run the shelter or call the food bank and make arrangements to have it delivered by those people you want to lose their jobs. It's interesting that you complain about workers at food banks getting paid for their labor. If that's the case, why don't you volunteer to work some place free?

If I donate food, I donate it to whom I wish to donate it. You have this enormous sense of entitlement that allows you to tell me that I have to donate it directly to you. No, I don't. I would strongly recommend that you keep this sense of entitlement to yourself because, if the word gets out, you'll get less than you get now.

Your comment regarding food banks: " And most of the time they sell donations to cover the cost of the truck, gas, and wages for the workers to deliver the goods.

To us we see it as stealing. Stealing donations from us because everyone is lowsy at it. And what we see going in is not what we receive coming out. "

Perhaps you missed the part where people donated the food to the food bank not to you. You missed the part where people don't have to donate anything to you unless they wish to do so. You missed the part where people who work are entitled to be paid for their labor.

To you it's stealing when people don't donate to you because, in your mind, their possessions are yours?! Boy, you've got some serious attitude problems that are standing in the way of you getting yourself out of the mess you're in. Let me be very clear: we don't owe you anything. Deal with it.



posted on Jan, 3 2015 @ 02:19 AM
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a reply to: Tangerine

Since you can't understand cigarettes and addictions let me feed you more of it.

Cigarrets are single handedly the hardest thing to hold onto when you become homeless. Especially if you have an addiction. Only addicts understand what it is like to be surrounded by other addicts. Over 90 percent of the homeless people in my area all smoke cigarrets. More than half are chain smokers. About 20 percent or about 1 in every 5 that I have come across have a cough that sounds like their lung is filled with water.

Over half of the homeless addicts are age 50 and above. None of them have emphysema, or have suffered from a stroke. None of them ever have any money.

I must say that the age group between 16 and 25 are also smokers who go through a pack a day. Some go through 2 packs a day. And I would say every young homeless person I have met smokes cigarrets. Every single one of them I have come across has asked me to spare a cigarret.

So when a homeless person sees another homeless person smoking they ask if I can spare them one. And you know what? They calm down. They know me by my name. They respect me. Everyone knows that I hand out cigarrets like candy because I understand what it is like to suffer through withdrawal. And instead of being stingy around my new found friends I give them a cigarret because the combined stress that lingers in the air with uncertainty looming in the clouds... it is hard to deal with. And when an addict of nicotine becomes overwhelmed with stress they can't control their stress. Especially when they think about everything that is shut off from them.

It is much like a bug light getting set up for the first time in a bug infested area. The light just keeps making that buzzing sound confirming a kill every few seconds. When you light up, they want one. Buzz. Someone else sees you lighting one up and buzz.. another person asks for a light. Soon enough everyone is outside smoking a cigarret. When they go back inside you can bet they will be back outside in five minutes lighting up another one because who they want to talk to is smoking. And because they are talking and smoking they light up another.

With so many mixed emotions and thoughts running through everyone's mind it is hard to clear it. Number one reason why homeless people smoke? Because of how much harder it is to get out of homelessness once you fall into that category. Even non smokers who get into homelessness suddenly start smoking. Because with everything being so #ed up for them it is the only thing they can do. And to them it is the only thing that makes any sense to them.

A cigarette to a homeless person is the greatest distraction from life that they have. A cigarette between homeless people causes them to talk about better things because they want to have at least one moment to forget the ass holes of today. But tge problem is that the moment they get reminded of their position... some turn suicidal. And most of the suicidal homeless people that cause the biggest scenes suddenly stop when offered a cigarette. Yeah a cigarret stopped a suicide two weeks ago. It was all he needed. And then bam.. like magic he stopped, calmed down, and became normal.

Because of a cigarette someone totally forgot about their world coming to and end because something got stolen from him.

A cigarette was traded from one addict to another for a work shirt he desperately needed that day.

A cigarret stopped the crazy war vet from being rude at a local hot dog stand and made him walk away finally.

A cigarret made someone smile when they were sitting in a corner crying while being oblivious to the police officer was trying to ask him for a statement.

The power of a single cigarret can actually control homeless people.

A single cigarret is like a one time cheat code activator in the world of homeless people.

Accidently just shoved a homeless person to the floor? A cigarette makes them forget.

Can't pay back that ten bucks you owe to one? Two cigarrets a day for three days and suddenly they have forgotten all about that money you borrowed.

Grudge with a homeless person against you? Cigarret.

Fighting with one? Two cigarrets and a hand shake saying sorry. Suddenly they are now your friend.

Homeless person won't leave your store? Send them off with just two cigarrets. And by the time they finish the first they move on to the next store.

Homeless person fighting at a gas stop? One cigarret and they suddenly stop fighting.

Don't ever forget the power of a single cigarret.

If you give out enough cigarrets like I have you suddenly become a mafia boss. If I need a favor? Believe it or not they help me out in any way possible. But the thing is I have done a lot of favors for the people who have come to me asking for help. I have cut someone's hair. Looked up statutes for someone's eviction and found out the notice was illegal and void because they violated the number of days, and the weekend clause. I have gotten people in at certain temp agencies and suddenly he has work. I have helped someone study for the call center of wolf cameras. I gave john my bicycle because I don't need it. I gave my motorcycle helmet to the guy who was finally able to get one today. He wears it every morning now.

I have given a lot of what I have to homeless people. But you seem to be concerned with cigarrets. Until you face it yourself one day, then you will understand why cigarrets are so important when you are homeless. Because if you don't share among your new found brothers they will exile you. Being that selfish in a homeless setting creates a hostile form of animosity towards you. And the more it grows the more dangerous the situation will become. I'm not saying be scared, but I will say be prepared for anything.

But you are so hung up on my cigarret reference that I now have spent 135 on cigarrets alone to give to the homeless.

I think what you are trying to say is why cigarrets. Hope this post clears that up for you. Now to actually respond to your actual questions by taking out your obsession of linking everything to cigarrets to try and make me sound like a very bad person. I will make it in a separate post. If you want to continue on with linking cigarrets to everything like a mad man go ahead. I think our perception of you is someone deeply disturbed by cigarrets.



posted on Jan, 3 2015 @ 03:51 AM
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originally posted by: Tangerine
a reply to: GiulXainx

Many businesses routinely throw out food so you spent $120 on cigarettes to give to homeless people? Sorry, but I don't see one justifying the other. Perhaps you could better explain the connection between the two because I missed it.


I don't think anyone but you made that connection.


By the way, much food is thrown out (if it's been on a plate, for example) because of health laws.


What are the health laws against baked goods, cold food goods, and hot food goods? Care to explain? How about dairy products? Whole fruits and veggies as well.


Perhaps the people who run your shelter should ask for the donation of unsold food from those businesses and arrange to pick it up or have it delivered. Perhaps you could volunteer to make the calls on behalf of your shelter.


We do. Just two problems with that:
1. More than 95% of the homeless people don't own cars. The ones who do sleep in their cars at wal mart away from shelters. They end up at the shelter when the car gets repossessed.

And...

2. They hang up right after we finish our first sentence. We have found that young female voices at least keep them from hanging up. But they still decline. Male voices are hung up on over 95% of the time. The director brings in his daughter to call for donations. She is only 12.



People miss payments on houses and someone lied to a church to get free rent so you spent $120 on cigarettes to give to homeless people? Sorry, but I don't see the connection between those two things.


Once again you sound deeply disturbed by cigarrets. The only person who linked these two together was you.

But I will answer with the pretense of you picking on me for helping people with addiction problems.

I help people.


Many jobs require special clothing that you don't have so you spent $120 on cigarettes to give to homeless people? Sorry, but wouldn't it have made more sense to save the money to use to buy that special clothing when you find a job? You have to buy an iron to iron shirts for work. Well, so does everyone else unless they buy shirts that don't require ironing. Perhaps you could buy one and donate it to the homeless shelter so it's available for everyone to use. Perhaps you could create a list of things that would be useful for the shelter to have and either arrange for the shelter to call churches and other groups or do so yourself.


Again with linking cigarrets. At least now it starts to make sense. You don't understand what it is like being surrounded by addicts but you missed my other detail. I have spent over two hundred dollars on uniforms for the position of: carpenter, groundskeeping, maintenance, general Labour, concessions, suite serving, banquet set up, chauffeur, car hop, bell hop, stock, receiving ops, window washing, car washing, fast food, and catering.

That means I have:
1 pair of black dress pants, carpenter blue jeans, kakhi pants.
1 pair black non slip work shoes, steel toe boots, duck boots.
1 long sleeve white dress shirt, black polo shirt, white polo shirt, construction vest.
1 black bow tie, clip on black neck tie, black neck tie, hard hat, safety glasses.
3 pairs black dress socks, white socks, knee high white socks.
3 pairs underwear.

Problem for me and the white dress shirt is no iron. And no ironing board that I can store anywhere inside. I have a storage locker with no power outlet. Local laundromats do not have outlets either. And last time I checked everywhere.... none of them stock a battery operated iron. So I get sent home on certain events that require the ironed shirt. But since you are hung up on cigarrets here is one for you:




You flat-out accused me of not donating anything to a homeless shelter unless it has survived 8 garage sales and everyone else I know has rejected it. That's quite a fanciful accusation not to mention an outrageous expression of entitlement that most people understandably find offensive.


Entitlement defined: the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.

Where are you getting entitlement from?

I think the word you are trying to find is actually prerogative: a right or privilege exclusive to a particular individual or class.

When all I am doing is expressing what homeless people perceive you to be.

And from my own personal experiences I have seen things go directly into the trash with homeless people never fiting criteria due to skewed and inaccurate perception. Basically you continue to stereotype us, and we continue to stereotype you. Conjecture isn't going to solve problems. Neither will obsession. So stop with your condemnation of my cigarret purchases. Because I am one of the homeless people who actually has money and has to buy his own food every day. I have spent over 250 dollars on food for myself this past 5 weeks. Because I don't have a fridge, I don't have a stove, I don't have a microwave or access to one. So guess where I buy my meals. The gas station. Guess what everyone else spends their money on? McDonald's, and if they have enough. Cigarrets.

Why? Because no one wants to deliver anything to us because their perception of us deems us unworthy. So we stereotype you. And I used to deem homeless people as unwanted until 5 weeks ago when I became homeless.


How much does it cost an addict to stop using? I don't know but that $120 you spent on cigarettes helped them to stay addicted. I know people who have stopped smoking after years by putting down a half-filled pack of cigarettes and saying, "No more." It's called will power. Until the last decade or so, that's how everyone who quit smoking quit smoking. You really don't need the help of the pharmaceutical industry, a physician, a psychiatrist, an aromatherapist a masseuse, and a spa to stop.



Somewhere out there sits a sad panda next to the will power tiger. Some people have strong wills. Most don't. Different strokes for different folks. Trying to teach someone will power is fruitless.

I think I have an extra D.A.R.E. shirt sitting in the trash can of my last residence. Just like every other kid whose parrents got suckered into buying that shirt.

What I am trying to express is that words alone don't empower people's will so easily. They have to want it. And in some cases need to feel that their body needs to end it to stay alive. I bet will power alone didn't stop your friends. I bet you they might have suffered a light heart attack or starting getting symptoms of a stroke before they quit.


As for hard drugs/alcohol, I believe addicts will forever be addicts. At best, they'll exchange one addictive substance or activity for another. Some of them exchange drugs for religion but they're still addicts. That's why I think homeless addicts/alcoholics should be separated from the rest of the homeless population with the goal of protecting society from them.


At least be happy that they don't own cars.



posted on Jan, 3 2015 @ 04:34 AM
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a reply to: GiulXainx

Much of your post was, understandably, about homeless people not having enough money to buy things they needed. I mentioned the $120 you spent on cigarettes for homeless friends because I thought it could have been better spent. You saw it as helping people who were addicted and I saw it as helping people stay addicted. Different viewpoints. There's also the matter of people in the shelter who don't smoke having to breathe poison. It's a serious health risk that they've chosen to not take and they should not be subjected to it in shelters, period.

I'm unaware of any health laws that prevent bakeries, grocery stores, restaurants, etc. from giving away food (so long as it hasn't been on someone's plate or isn't contaminated). They should certainly do so. Around here, all the grocery stores and many restaurants donate to the men's and women's homeless shelters, the food bank, and elsewhere. A number of the churches take turns making home-cooked evening meals for the shelters and it's very good quality food. Sadly, I suspect that the community where I live is the exception.

I'm well aware that most homeless people don't have cars. Transportation is an enormous problem for poor people in general and it's worse in rural areas than in cities where they can at least use buses to get to some places. I'm not foolish enough to think that buses are a decent substitute for cars in many situations but it's not only homeless people who are in a situation where they have to use them.

I'm sorry you had to spend all that money on required clothes for work. I think most people have had to do that at one time or another but it does suck if you don't have the job for long. Doesn't the shelter have an iron or at least let you plug in an iron? An ironing board is certainly convenient but if you don't have one you can iron a shirt on top of a towel on a table or countertop.

No, I meant entitlement. When someone feels entitled to something, they have a sense of entitlement. I think you'll have better luck getting what you want if you don't let people know that you think you're entitled to it. I am not, of course, suggesting that you grovel. That's equally offensive.

I'm well aware that people who know better often have bad habits like drinking or smoking. However, most of them are financing their own bad habits. it's understandably difficult to convince someone to give some of their hard-earned money or goods to someone who had pissed away their money on booze and cigarettes or other drugs. Imagine what a banker would say to an employed person who asks for a bank loan to buy a car and explains that he lost his savings at the casino. Do you think the bank manager would consider him to be a good risk and give him a loan? That's the way people look at the homeless who are addicts. They're not a good risk. They're not a good investment. Giving something to them is like pouring money down a rat hole. Yes, they may have had horrible things happen to them through no fault of their own but now they're addicts and addicts are a very poor risk.

I don't know your backstory but you're obviously an intelligent person in a bad situation. It happens. Because you're well aware of the often negative perception of homeless people, a perception caused by the behavior of some, you would do well to separate yourself from the addicts and mentally ill at every opportunity (yes, I realize that's not possible in the shelter, itself) and make as good an impression as you can with people outside that world. If you can't find work, volunteer. Meet people. Impress them with how hard you work and what a decent person you are. Make it known that you're looking for work. Don't ask for anything. With a little luck, word of mouth will get you a job and hand-up. Remember that every minute you spend volunteering working with people who aren't homeless, you're developing a network. Every minute you spend sitting in the shelter or on a park bench or wherever with homeless people, you're stigmatizing yourself. It may not be fair but it sure is reality. Good luck.



posted on Jan, 3 2015 @ 04:44 AM
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originally posted by: Tangerine
a reply to: GiulXainx

Your comment, "Better yet I hope a sick homeless person comes in contact with you and end up with the shingles" says far more about you than about me.


Yeah I get angry. So do you.


Here's another comment from you, "Wait until the day you face it yourself. You will be the Roger who gets kicked out because you can't sleep with everyone else snoring as your first complaint. And then start a riot for being a rat about who smokes weed, cigarrets, or stole the hand sanitizer out of the rest room." Again, it says far more about you than about me.


Yup. I get mad. So do you. Then you make it personal. So do I.


You hope I don't work at a bar? Huh? Another of your comments, "I hope you don't work at a bar. I give people an answer on keeping drunk homeless people from causing scenes and immediately it is followed with a conjectured and repulsive reaction."

My reaction was not conjecture. It's fact: it's not my responsibility to keep anyone from getting drunk. There's a solution for keeping drunk homeless people from causing scenes: it's called institutionalizing homeless alcoholics and addicts to protect society from them and to separate them from the homeless who will actually benefit from social services. It will also encourage people to have less disdain for the homeless because right now, when most people think of the homeless, they think of gutter drunks and addicts with an enormous sense of self-entitlement.



I used to think the exact same thing as you until I found myself at a bar three weeks ago when my car got repossessed.

Even the retort you just gave me mirrored mine. Especially when I am calling you out on not exploring a possible answer to a problem when you assume all homeless people who are addicts won't change.

Conjecture bud. You haven't proven board games do not prevent drunk homeless addicts from going to the bar. You just assume things based on your perception of us. And that is one thing we have not tried yet because their board games depress them with the condition they are in.

Its not like the homeless are trying to eat the checkers, or purposely lose cards. It is every day wear and tear that gets to them. And because looking at the missing pieces depresses a new homeless person who wants to play... they delve deeper into that abyss everyone talks about.


If your homeless shelter is 15 miles away from the nearest food bank, I assume that food is delivered to you or you'd all be starving. If it's not being delivered, take it up with the people who run the shelter or call the food bank and make arrangements to have it delivered by those people you want to lose their jobs. It's interesting that you complain about workers at food banks getting paid for their labor. If that's the case, why don't you volunteer to work some place free?


That food bank is ran through a Monsanto like company. I forget which company it was but researching it's local history.... it has a very bad rap sheet already. And when I worked back in 2009 for the homeless I quit after I found out just how much I wasn't helping the homeless. And how much I was hurting them for getting paid food money that is supposed to go to the homeless. At first I didn't believe my wages came from the very food I was sorting out. But by the end of my first week I started doing my own investigation. Instead of being fired I quit. Simply put not every food bank is as they seem to be. Read into the fine print and it will lead you to where the money actually goes. Or in my case where the food went.


If I donate food, I donate it to whom I wish to donate it. You have this enormous sense of entitlement that allows you to tell me that I have to donate it directly to you. No, I don't. I would strongly recommend that you keep this sense of entitlement to yourself because, if the word gets out, you'll get less than you get now.


No. What I am telling you is the best way to ensure accuracy. In other words what you donate actually goes to who needs it. Take it to a shelter, or where ever the homeless gather. After what I saw back in 2009 working for a food bank has caused me to actually take it to the homeless. It is not me enforcing an entitlement. It is enforcing higher percentages of food getting to us instead of being sent through a myriad of filters.


Your comment regarding food banks: " And most of the time they sell donations to cover the cost of the truck, gas, and wages for the workers to deliver the goods.

To us we see it as stealing. Stealing donations from us because everyone is lowsy at it. And what we see going in is not what we receive coming out. "

Perhaps you missed the part where people donated the food to the food bank not to you. You missed the part where people don't have to donate anything to you unless they wish to do so. You missed the part where people who work are entitled to be paid for their labor.

To you it's stealing when people don't donate to you because, in your mind, their possessions are yours?! Boy, you've got some serious attitude problems that are standing in the way of you getting yourself out of the mess you're in. Let me be very clear: we don't owe you anything. Deal with it.


And finally the ultimate stereotype that homeless people hold onto anyone who isn't, rears its ugly mirrored head.

You see when a homeless person goes through your garbage bins you call the cops. In fact any person rummaging through anyone's garbage has the dogs called on them. Regardless of how clean they proceed to be.... you don't like it. Cops are called. You press charges.

A shirt is found on the floor. Sitting there for twenty minutes. Someone picks it up. And suddenly someone claims you stole their priceless shirt. That happened just last week. Cops called and charges pressed. Our statements are "null and void because you are homeless." As one person said it in front of an officer.

We simply want to use the rest room and immediately you make us buy something to use a "public restroom."

We sit in front of your shop asking for change and get hand cuffs. But the santa suit guy with a bell giving money to a corrupt charity is a o k.

When seen walking down any street we are immediately seen as drunk. Even though only 1 in 16 are actually drunk and walking. Cops called.

We sleep on a park, or city bus bench? Ticketed by police.

Take a whiz outside because we have no money to buy anything? Cops called, new sex offender registration.

We come up to a water fountain to find that it is shut off.

Walk into a convention center... get kicked out immediately when the word homeless is said.

See us sleeping anywhere at all outside. Cops called and charges pressed for loitering.

We are immediately judged on our looks and most times not even acknowledged when conducting official business.

Constantly harassed by the general public at homeless shelters from passers by.

We call and ask for a donation. Get hung up on without an answer.

So we ask nicely for it. And you spit in our face.

We aren't allowed to be seen. Because the moment you see us you think we are up to no good. Cops called, charges pressed, ticket issued, court appearance set.

Change your perception of us. Because that is how we perceive you.



posted on Jan, 3 2015 @ 05:53 AM
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Before I got sick again I was volunteering at a charity for young homeless people in my near by town. I had grown up in a nice middle class village and wasn't really aware of the poverty that existed in my own town. It was an eye opener that these homeless youngsters existed. I'll admit I volunteered as I was out of work and the volunteering gave me some self worth, not out of a moral obligation. So maybe selfish on my behalf, but what was of benefit to me was also of benefit to the charity. I
tried not to judge the youngsters although it became apparent that coming from a stable family background makes a huge difference in people's lives. I had grown up with 2 working parents, who expected me to work as soon as I was old enough, they also expected me to work hard in school and go to college and university.

Most of the youngsters who visited our charity,had been kicked out from homes with no love or positive role models. Most had some form of mental illness. I'm not a psychiatrist, so was in no position to diagnose, but it was quite clear most had mental health issues. I did the volunteering for 3 years and really enjoyed it.

I was always thinking of ways to get these youngsters motivated and engaged with varying degrees of success. It wasn't easy, but it felt good trying. There's only so much you can do. So I wouldn't say I felt morally obliged or that people should be morally obliged to help the homeless, but to realise that sometimes you can help yourself by helping others



posted on Jan, 3 2015 @ 04:25 PM
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originally posted by: woodwardjnr
Before I got sick again I was volunteering at a charity for young homeless people in my near by town. I had grown up in a nice middle class village and wasn't really aware of the poverty that existed in my own town. It was an eye opener that these homeless youngsters existed. I'll admit I volunteered as I was out of work and the volunteering gave me some self worth, not out of a moral obligation. So maybe selfish on my behalf, but what was of benefit to me was also of benefit to the charity. I
tried not to judge the youngsters although it became apparent that coming from a stable family background makes a huge difference in people's lives. I had grown up with 2 working parents, who expected me to work as soon as I was old enough, they also expected me to work hard in school and go to college and university.

Most of the youngsters who visited our charity,had been kicked out from homes with no love or positive role models. Most had some form of mental illness. I'm not a psychiatrist, so was in no position to diagnose, but it was quite clear most had mental health issues. I did the volunteering for 3 years and really enjoyed it.

I was always thinking of ways to get these youngsters motivated and engaged with varying degrees of success. It wasn't easy, but it felt good trying. There's only so much you can do. So I wouldn't say I felt morally obliged or that people should be morally obliged to help the homeless, but to realise that sometimes you can help yourself by helping others


I agree with you. However, it's clear that some homeless people want us to help them (a huge sense of entitlement) while they do nothing to help themselves.



posted on Jan, 3 2015 @ 04:31 PM
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a reply to: GiulXainx

You listed a number of jobs you've had. Each of those was an opportunity you had. Presumably, one way or another, you lost all those jobs. You said you were employed at a food bank and quit. That's another opportunity down the drain. You said your car was repossessed while you were in a bar. That speaks for itself. You have all kinds of excuses and blame everyone but yourself.You have an outrageous sense of entitlement but absolutely no insight into the role you played in getting into the situation you're in and getting out of it. Bottom line, you're a bad risk investment.



posted on Jan, 3 2015 @ 10:04 PM
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I don't mind helping the homeless as long as I am not stealing from them.

Everyone gets depressed when a reposession of your only car happens. Am i not allowed to be depressed? Am I not allowed to mourn for a loss? I guess in your eyes no one should ever have a single reason to enter a bar at all. Because of your superficial thinking.

So if I am a bad investment why not kill me where I stand right now? Why not kill them all huh?

Especially when you have no friends to help you and a family that can't help you.

Especially when a company promotes you to a supervisor position and everyone makes you look bad because they think you are their friend. And whose goals are to do less and less work, but keep the same amount of hours per week. And looking up to you in hopes of you granting it when the superintendent wants to fire everyone. I wrote them up, told them what to do and how to do it faster and what did they do? Got me fired.


Or how about when a supervisor tells you to watch youtube videos on how to perform jobs instead of showing you what to do. One who has never worked on a team, and in a team effort? One who doesn't know how to conduct a team and training people properly? The same type of person who thinks cloning himself would be better? Especially when you tried to help him better himself as a supervisor only to find out he is scared of getting let go due to age? How do you deal with that type of supervisor?


Or how about when working conditions aren't suited for you due to inability to function properly to finish on time. Such as sticking a diabetic in a freezer, frigid, and deep freeze because absolutely no one else is willing to. Then you end up getting sick with pneumonia and they "don't care just get it done." You bring them your doctor's note that confirms the pneumonia and they think you are lying about your hospital bill?

Or how about when someone does not possess the ability to properly train you. And just tells you what to do over a radio on your first month without ever showing you how to do it properly. And then continue to ask why it was not done properly. Then later getting paperwork served against you because the supervisor thinks everyone should automatically know how to take apart an adgressor and put it back together. When you were never shown how it works.

Or how about being the star employee whose methods of getting customers to say "yes" suddenly stops working? Such as when I had to push credit cards. My methods worked for about three months. Then later got fired because no one would even so much as listen to my pitch.

How about when you have a passion working on a team for the first time. You know all the rules and proceedures. And every day you go home happy. Then one day you greet someone in an eccentric mood, but they take it as hostility towards them. And you are just being you? Not even angry at anyone. But you get hostile work environment judgments passed against you. There is no mediation because the other person keeps talking up his fantasy of you, painting you as a monster. Meanwhile he does less and less work. Then you get fired because this person is so worried about what others are thinking about him. Making up # in his head because he thinks everyone is against him. I tried to mediate with this person and it proved more harmful. Two months after I got fired I see him in a public place. Didn't even start a commotion. Why? He didn't even recognize me. Wasn't scared of me. Walked right past me. When before this person would shy away from me like two negatives of a magnet trying to be forced together. He looked me in the eye dammit.

Or how about when a girl who does the same thing, only ties it to sexual harassment only because she doesn't understand Spanish, but she goes around telling everyone she had sex with a supervisor. Then the entire company is sued and required to take sensitivity training. I did as much as I could to help the supervisor, but no one believes the male. No one ever believes the male.

How about working as a groundskeeper year round building up a reputation as being the hardest worker of your team, but someone moves up to supervisor who doesn't like you because you make him look bad when everyone compares him to you. He takes a personal grudge towards you and decides that on winter snow removal, he has to call you to come in or not. And he never calls you. The superintendent doesn't believe he would skip you on the call list and instead claims you never answered your phone. You pull up your cellphone transcript and show them no call was ever received at the specified time he claimed to have called. For two months you have 0 hours. Would you stick with that job knowing your fate is put into the hands of someone who dislikes you because you are better than him?

Or how about when another company that operates based on an app, that charges customers 2 to 8 times more to do the same job as you? I worked as a taxi driver in Denver at night. Caught a third degree domestic violence offender with the official letter of commendation from greenwood village pd issued to me. I still have it. Taxi rates are 2.25 per mile with a 2.90 flag fall. Under strict PUC rulings, and DOT operational licenses we were suddenly outmatched with people who owned a smart phone, and a car that did not appear to be a taxi. Not only did they breach several areas of PUC guidelines, and DOT regulations. They also charge 2 to 8 times as much per mile than a taxi. And people think they are saving money with that ride coupon. My small team of drivers all quit. Some ended up upside down with the cab. I had to quit due to no business. I spent over 200 dollars on gas driving around every shopping center, bar, theater, the alamo, and restaurant. No one ever called. Instead we hear the bad news about uber on January 1st 2013 and we couldn't believe it.

Me and my team kept our cabs smell free, clean, warm, and ready to go. But people liked uber for some reason. Even though we were cheaper.

So if it is me then #ing kill me already.



posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 04:33 AM
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a reply to: Tangerineas I said in my post it's not a moral obligation, if you feel like your not helping, don't help. I helped, but helped to help myself, not through moral obligation. Just try and help without being judgemental, you don't know what most of them have been through and recognise that most won't have had the benefits life has offered you up to this point. If your going to see them as being entitled, go help someone else who you feel is more deserving of your time.



posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 06:16 AM
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originally posted by: woodwardjnr
a reply to: Tangerineas I said in my post it's not a moral obligation, if you feel like your not helping, don't help. I helped, but helped to help myself, not through moral obligation. Just try and help without being judgemental, you don't know what most of them have been through and recognise that most won't have had the benefits life has offered you up to this point. If your going to see them as being entitled, go help someone else who you feel is more deserving of your time.



How do you know that I don't know what some homeless people have gone through? That's an assumption. How do you know what benefits in life I've had? How do you know I haven't been homeless? I think I pretty clearly said that a specific poster demonstrated a "sense of entitlement". That's very different from actually being entitled. However, I do believe I started out by saying that, in my opinion, everyone is entitled to food, shelter and medical care. I also expressed my opinion that the segment of the homeless population who are alcoholics/addicts/mentally ill and those who have an over-developed sense of entitlement create an extremely bad impression of the homeless.

How do you know I haven't helped homeless people? You may be surprised to learn that I've taken several into my home. That's one of the reasons I divide the homeless into two groups: one that can be helped in meaningful ways and the other that, sadly, can't be helped to improve their lives and are a drain on social services and a menace to those who try to help them. Certainly, even the latter group deserves food, housing, and medical care but they've pretty much forfeited their right to live in society.

A friend of mine has taken in a homeless couple and, on a separate occasion, a homeless woman and her two teenage daughters. Both sets of people abused her generosity and stole from her. She had a terrible time getting them out of her home. Her naivete' put her at risk. Let's not pretend that all homeless people are wonderful people who have simply fallen on hard times and need a hand up. Certainly, some fall into that category, but many don't.

Homelessness is a huge problem and it's compounded by the fact that most of the social service money spent on the homeless is consumed by the same alcoholics/addicts/mentally ill who suck the system dry over and over and make the people who were once willing to help regret having tried. Worst of all, they prevent those who can benefit from help from getting it.



posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 06:56 AM
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a reply to: TrueBrit

I read your post and saw much of my own experience listed. Sadly, when I went under the bus, I had no friends left to give a hoot, because in my case, it was down to a complex combination of environmental/existential factors - to which I had responded with the 'ostrich method', using drink & drugs to blot out the increasingly frightening reality I was faced with.

I remember being incredibly creative and careful regarding where to bed down. I recall the thermal ports, and I remember the Jackpot Joy of arriving in a supermarket car park just as the night shift were dumping the days' unsold sandwiches in the (surprisingly sanitary) dumpster out back.

I visited many cities trying to figure out my life, and found a steady stream of extremely dangerous 'denizens of the street', who took pride in their ability to survive knife fights, or the amount of murders they had gotten away with, who dominated the scene and literally scared me away from the limited 'provisions' for the homeless in various places. I had a number of close calls, but the 'grace of God' taught me everything I needed to know, or enabled me to intuit the best response to a life or death scenario. I had to walk away from a great number of beds simply because it was too damn risky to stay. I remember using plastic sheeting and cardboard boxes to provide protection from sub-zero temperatures after I'd lost/ had my sleeping bag or blankets stolen.

Eventually, I found the support of a community church, but even then I had to live illegally in a portacabin which was used as a break room by guys in a local factory - one of them gave me a key. It was heaven - an electric fire, old leather sofas, a brew kit & kettle, blankets, a lockable door in a quiet industrial area. For weeks I would walk to have a wash in Tesco, and then work long, hard shifts in various 'day at a time' temp jobs, until I caught a break with a permanent job in a local warehouse.

Until you've experienced it, it's impossible to know the intricacies and hardships of being out in the cold. These days, there's many more charities aimed at helping young homeless people (I was 17-19 at the time), and my daily paper (the Independent's compact sister paper, the i) has recently given a vast amount of coverage to such charities, though mainly with a focus on military vets, who make up approx. 30-40% of he homeless in the UK. Many of these guys have been forever changed by PTSD or associated problems, and some end up in a downward spiral from which there is no recovery.

While my life hasn't turned out as I'd hoped, fifteen years on (34 now), I have a wonderful wife & two sons, and we are in a relatively stable financial situation. We are placing all our emphasis on equipping our boys to grow into dedicated, caring & contributing members of society, but we have an advantage in that I know every one of the enemy's tricks.

Take care mate,


FITO.


NB - in response to the question in the OP - yes, in terms of the super-users (should read 'super-abusers') then yes, you no longer have any moral obligation to care about them. Perhaps just a mite of a prayer each time they crop up - but process them out again asap. Focus on those who need help & want help, even if it seems they might be spinning a line out of desperation to get some sort of respite from the horrors of the streets.



posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 04:48 PM
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originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: woodwardjnr
a reply to: Tangerine snipped

Snipped


I never once said there are no bad apples in the homeless crowd. In every city, and every state there exists a population of homeless people. Every crowd, and every person is different. No matter what signs, speech patterns, looks, behavior, or disposition, they all act very differently.

I have experienced so much in my various jobs that I quit, got fired from, terminated, and scorned from and I can tell you this much. You will never be able to sniff out every single liar, biggot, liason, crafter, troll, trafficker, defrauder, or exploitive.

In all of the jobs I have ever signed up for, and in every company exists its own special "case."

And you want to know something funny about me? I am such a true chaotic neutral person that I can get any one person to give out sensitive information to me. I know social security numbers to all of my past landlords, their private addresses, what they are into with their deepest darkest secrets, and the address and title for their employment. I could easily commit fraud to prove it to you but I know better. I know how to machine checks because I have seen how those crooks do it. I can easily create obscurity to make it hard to trace me because I have witnessed it myself because my parents did it. And I don't #ing do it because I know better.

At the job that I currently tied down and finally got hours for I am working with a bunch of teens and tweens. I am a tween myself for another 3 years so I can get into a job still. But you want to know what they do? Smoke marijuana on their breaks. These kids don't even use axe body spray anymore. They come back inside reeking of it. All of the employees including the manager, and assistant manager all smoke weed on their breaks. But at the same time I don't #ing say # to anyone until I am asked about.

Want to know why I don't make that corporate call and report these #ers? Because I take the opportunity to learn as much as I can on how they continue to operate so I can pick up on it fast. It angers me that they get away with it, but at the same time I know that my position at work will never be jeopardized. And when push comes to shove? I will be the wind that carries them further away as they fall.

I have worked with felons at your entertainment venus such as coors field, dick's sporting goods park, and Pepsi center. And you know what my review of their work ethic is? Higher than most high school grads, college students, and degree holders. If I ever run a company I would hire felons over students any day. At least with those who do get out with that record I will never have to worry about them. Because they know and I know their second offense is twice as hard to get out of.

And now that I have seen alot of homeless people, and currently live among them my view has turned around on them.

Here where I am the general consensus are trying to get a job. And yes I do see and hear the entitled. But they don't last long here. Mostly because they are trying to cause a scene to create a misdirection, or bewilder advisors so they can continue to stay. I have two weeks left at this shelter as of today and I only have 500 saved up for rent. I am not eligible for section 8 housing. And the average price Index for rent is in the 600 and above range. In the area where I work the rent price ranges from 700 to 900. Craigslist doesn't have anything closer than 8 miles to a bus stop that fits my budget. So guess what? I still can't stay at the shelter.

Go ahead and slap me with cigarettes. This 500 came purely from work. That 500 is how much I made from workingthis past 3 weeks. And I don't have enough confidence built from my current job to make a firm decision. Especially when the money I started with is considerably drained. I don't save money because it isn't worth saving when you are a starving homeless person. One surrounded by people who assume, and place guilt on us by association.

In other words I think of the long term over the short term. If I don't make enough hourly to cover the cost of an apartment or rent, then I am not going to pursue it. I am not going to place myself in an even worse environment.



posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 05:01 PM
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originally posted by: GiulXainx

originally posted by: Tangerine

At the job that I currently tied down and finally got hours for I am working with a bunch of teens and tweens. I am a tween myself for another 3 years so I can get into a job still.


Tweens are between 10 and 12 years old and you're a tween yourself for another three years? Your credibility has dropped into the minus category.



posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 06:38 PM
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a reply to: Tangerine

Uh... teen is between the ages thirteen and nineteen. Considering they have the word "teen" written in them. The new slang term for people in their twenties, from age twenty to twenty nine, is now "tweens." At least that is what I am used to hearing.

The official dictionary and what the general public use are much different. I've heard people use tweens for people in their twenties alot where I live.
edit on 142015 by GiulXainx because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 06:47 PM
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yes



posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 07:06 PM
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a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Thank you for relating your experiences and insights. I'm glad you managed to get yourself together and now enjoy a stable life. It's great that you're raising your sons to be caring and contributing members of society. Thank you for also pointing out the existence of what you call super-abusers among the homeless. Unfortunately, they get most of the money allocated for the homeless when priority should be given to helping those who actually want to get out of that situation.



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