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Moral obligation to homelessness

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(post by onequestion removed for a manners violation)

posted on Dec, 30 2014 @ 11:35 AM
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a reply to: KyoZero

KyoZero,

I appreciate your sentiments!

I would like to make clear to you, just in case this was not obvious to you, that changing the way you offer people assistance, from your current night shift function, to one more suited to your training, would not be an example of you no longer caring. You see, there is a very big difference between having done something to help people for a long time, at great expense of fatigue and mental effort, before changing to a different tack, and never having done anything at all.

If every single person who could do some night work, made themselves available at a shelter to do so, then there could be more shelters, less homeless with no where to go when the weather gets extreme, less folk sitting in cold, damp alleyways waiting to die of either exposure, or malnutrition. You care, and you have already shown the people of your town how much. But one cannot survive on charitable acts alone, and nor can one survive by doing only charitable acts. You have training, and it is perfectly reasonable for you to go out and search for a way to use that to the best of your ability.

I wish you every success at whatever you do next.



posted on Dec, 30 2014 @ 11:41 AM
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a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

I have a sister that is spot on to your close relative. Stopped working in the late 80s and never got another job again even today. Ran my mom out of money after my dad died and after my mom passed away (largely due to my sister) she lived off what was left. Even today no job and I do not know where she is and I do not care in the least...



posted on Dec, 30 2014 @ 11:56 AM
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originally posted by: KyoZero
But let me throw some devil's advocate at you if I may. Despite my past ((and believe me if you search my post history you'll see...)) I am starting to see a balance is needed as opposed to a pure Socialist attitude. Capitalism, when regulated, can be a fine enterprise. People compete, better products and advancements are made, and jobs are created to avoid issues like massive unemployment. I would throw in a healthy dash of social policies such as temporary unemployment or full term disability for someone unable to work, but my point is capitalism isn't terrible if watched. Now while I agree by definition that Capitalism itself doe snot live and breathe, we the people make, support and define Capitalism thus I contend that while the idea is not tangible in and of itself, the structure and outcroppings are concrete and real because we make them. So the issue I have is, while I may be irritated by these 4 or 5 guys, in many cases, our definition and self-created Capitalism has increased homelessness. The structure dictates as you say it does. Profit is the end game and thus if outsourcing to India is more profitable, then outsourcing is chosen. But then at some point in time, we decided that it was perfectly ok to keep making what I think to be poor decisions by either caving to massive conglomerates like Walgreens and offering severe tax breaks while allowing crappy pay and crappy benefits. Or they decide they don't like our offer and send droves of jobs across the sea. How else do we explain it then? We as a society have determined such large scale actions are ok and thus we as a society have largely decided that the results, one of which can be homelessness, are likewise ok...so long as it isn't in my back yard.

I do agree there are some people who would choose substandard living if it meant not working, but I am not so sure that said percentage of people are a vast majority but I am no a sociologist or have researched this personally. So then I suppose now that we have really gotten deep into this conversation that started as a question of mine, then let me ask this


It is simple solution but difficult to happen. First, flat tax on corporations, that puts an end to it all. Second, pass laws that make it a bigger liability to send jobs oversea, MAKE it better for corporations to hire here at home though legislation.

The hard part: Vote people into office that will do this...The lower middle class and poor keep voting in the same old cronies over and over, and they have the numbers to make the change.



Instead of saying at what point can I, Kyo, morally be ok with not caring and change it to, at what point should I, Kyo, start doing more about it?


I personally help to keep one old couple (70s) off the streets. The wife is ill, and the hubby sits out near a main street with a sign daily for donations, I give about 50 to 100 bucks a month to him, that is my personal part.



Yes I have to protect my psychiatric wards and leave those precious few beds open for someone who has legitimately broke and needs desperate and immediate help, but do we then owe society to help resolve or prevent the problem of homelessness?


We all have limited resources, I would love to give the old couple 1000 a month but I got bills to pay too. The biggest problem is we have moved from a private charity based society to a Government subsidized society. Once we did that people loss their individuality and became just a number. The Government only sees masses not individuals, so if the Government says we help 60% of the homeless masses they pat each other on the backs with no care in the world for the other 40%. Back when we were a private charity based society, every person had a name and each person was handled as an individual. This is another big reason things are as they are.



posted on Dec, 30 2014 @ 12:42 PM
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a reply to: KyoZero

It's an impossible situation

I think this behavior is a kind of learned helplessness - they don't know how to move past this position. They've found a way to survive and they're surviving. If it makes you feel any better about it at all, it just might be that they are mentally ill. It's not the kind of illness that wins them a lot of compassion or sympathy because they are working the system and using you, but well people would not choose to live like this

I had a friend that worked as a kind of therapist in the prison system for years and years. When she went in she was a cheery optimist that understood that every sad luck case had a history, every crime committed was the result - of something

She eventually quit because she found herself thinking that these people were hopeless, irredeemable wastes of breathable air and they deserved whatever horrible end found them and took them out

She couldn't do her job anymore and had to save herself. You're in a similar position and I honestly don't know how you keep your bearings. Mental illness is a very confusing and draining thing for most people. Even for people who work with the mentally ill...

I'm pretty much a complete bleeding heart - but even I have had to pull back from certain situations where I couldn't remain detached, rational and caring. You're human - you have limits

If they were creatures in the wild they would likely be left to fend for themselves. That is what they're doing. They're people - you can't just lock them up, you also can't control their behavior

Maybe if you think of them as dangerous and destructive creatures that also desperately need your protection

Trust me - there's so much wrong with what I just said that if someone else had written it besides myself I'd be all over them by now - but I do think looking at it from that perspective might change the way you also look at the possible solutions

No matter what you do - you sound like a good person to me, and I know nothing I just said actually helps you



posted on Dec, 30 2014 @ 12:47 PM
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a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I read some studies that indicate that mental illness is far more common than we know. But people with greater intelligence are able to work around the illness.

I have talked to people who were not delusional, but were still active schizoprenics (or some other psychopathy). They will tell you they hear voices, but that they either ignore them or self medicate them away.



posted on Dec, 30 2014 @ 12:59 PM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

One of my best friends is also one of the brightest and most creative people I know

She knows she has a problem, but she can think and talk her way around it most of the time - and has been a fairly successful business woman for most of her life. She knows when things aren't going well that she can tell herself certain things aren't real - but eventually they become real and she loses that battle for a bit

One time the birds were telling her to leave her family - and there was nothing I could say that would change her mind or make her see reason

I think you're right - I think it happens to more people than we're willing to admit to, and that even a garden variety depression can lead you down a road to homelessness if you don't have certain things in place to protect you, and if you're not sleeping or eating... maybe sanity is conditional


edit on 12/30/2014 by Spiramirabilis because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 30 2014 @ 02:08 PM
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tAXATION IS immoral



posted on Dec, 30 2014 @ 04:08 PM
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originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Tangerine

Individual rights. Not mob rule. At no point does one persons rights matter more than another. Whether they are drunk, crazy, or strung out.


Perhaps I'm not expressing myself clearly. I believe that everyone has rights, but I question whether ANYONE has the right to infringe on the rights of others to go about their business in public. I question whether anyone has the right to accost others, harass others, urinate and vomit on buses, pass out from alcohol or drugs on buses or park benches, etc. and be given a free pass because they're homeless. I would submit that if you or I went on a berserk rampage and harassed people and then vomited and passed out on a bus we'd likely be taken to jail. After we did it a few times, we'd get extended sentences. Where I live, this does not happen to the homeless or the mentally ill (homeless or not). The police "talk" to them and the cycle begins again. In the case of the homeless, they're given a ride to the shelter not to the jail. In the case of the mentally ill who are not homeless, they're simply "talked" to and allowed to continue as they were. In my opinion, your belief that no one person's rights matter more than another is not being observed.



posted on Dec, 30 2014 @ 04:16 PM
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a reply to: Tangerine

We get a similar thing here, to a degree. But the local LEO know that most locals will only tolerate so much before they beat the living daylights out of someone for harassing them. I still kind of live on the frontier, and the rought/tumble spirit of the locals is a great deterrent.

I spent some time working near Travis Park in San Antonio last year. Outside my window were no shortage of homeless people going about their business in the park. 2 distinct groups: kids who had run away and people who were profoundly mentally ill.

The solution is to create beds. We have diverted beds for the sick to forensic patients. So beds that would have otherwise been available for inpatient admission 10 years ago just don't exist.

How do we get to that solution? I think the first step is untangling the effed up mess that is Obamacare. If health care is only available to someone able to log onto Healthcare.gov, then the people who need it the most will be completely passed over.

Once you create an economy around treating mentally people, then perhaps the beds will be returned. But no one will treat the mentally ill for free.



posted on Dec, 30 2014 @ 04:17 PM
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a reply to: KyoZero

Thank for the explanation for SSRI. I'm aware of the current standard for "removing" people. I'm suggesting that a new standard be established. Obviously, the current standard is not solving the problem of the homeless and addicted mentally ill who cycle through the system over and over.



posted on Dec, 30 2014 @ 04:27 PM
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a reply to: Spiramirabilis

The most heartbreaking patient I ever worked with was a 45 year old male that was admitted for psychosis. Turns out, he had a depression that went on for a couple of years that ended up in a psychosis. His family never got to have their father/husband back, as he died from cancer a couple of years later, without ever really responding to treatment.

The most frustrating patient I ever worked with was a 24 year old man who had a depressive psychosis. Because he seemed to want to reimbrace the psychosis once it was treated.



posted on Dec, 30 2014 @ 04:30 PM
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originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I read some studies that indicate that mental illness is far more common than we know. But people with greater intelligence are able to work around the illness.

I have talked to people who were not delusional, but were still active schizoprenics (or some other psychopathy). They will tell you they hear voices, but that they either ignore them or self medicate them away.



I think you just described me.



posted on Dec, 30 2014 @ 04:45 PM
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a reply to: KyoZero

From the explanation you posted here, I'd say you're not being harsh or immoral by telling that small assortment of abusers that they're on their own on a cold night. They've earned that cold night as a direct result of their behavior and disregard for anyone and everyone else.

That said, I resent the self-righteous *ssholes that point to one of those guys and use their behavior as justification for denying other homeless men, women and children the help and dignity that a human being should be entitled to in this society. And I see this being done all the time - on here and right out my front door.

A person who is self-centered and self-entitled is a jerk whether that person is homeless or is telling homeless people to "get a job". Same damn person - only difference being that one's already lost what safety net he/she had as a result of being a jerk to people.

Trying to help people - even if it's just part of your job - is seriously hard work. No one succeeds 100% of the time, but as long as they try, there's no reason to regret any of it.



posted on Dec, 30 2014 @ 05:43 PM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

So weird Tex -

My dad was bipolar - he never heard voices (that I know of). He received that diagnosis while he was in the hospital dying of cancer. The doctor thought his moods were too extreme even for someone in his situation. He was so relieved. That's a difficult thing to explain maybe to anyone that hasn't gone through this - but finally he had an explanation for why he was the way he was and all of what he had been through in his life. He unfortunately died before he had the chance to make a new life with that knowledge

I wrote about it only once somewhere here on ATS - I always worried that my dad might end up homeless. There's a long explanation for that that I won't go into here. He wouldn't actually need to be homeless - he had plenty of family and friends. But when he wasn't well he couldn't see the world that way and everything and everyone was a problem or a danger

The friend I mentioned earlier enjoyed her altered states as well and walked a fine line between staying well and giving in. It makes her family - particularly her daughter - very angry

I'm sure you've seen it all, the stories all so alike yet very different. I'm sure it takes it's toll after a while

I know that none of this solves the OP's problem - but I do think that homelessness is more often than not about more than laziness, freeloading or being unwilling to conform. Or if it is all those things, that those things come with not having something that most of us have



posted on Dec, 30 2014 @ 05:49 PM
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originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Or if it is all those things, that those things come with not having something that most of us have


For those who fit in that category, it may start as lazyness. But it ends up being a lack of personal expectations. And coping skills. And don't forget a warped outlook.

I think more often than not, the people folks would call "lazy" have their own cognitive issues. In my early, early 20's i hung around with some folks who were kind of like that. They were decent folks, but they frustrated me. So the association was short lived.



posted on Dec, 30 2014 @ 06:33 PM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I suspect you're right. When money is to be made, a solution will be at hand.



posted on Dec, 30 2014 @ 06:44 PM
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originally posted by: Xtrozero
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

I have a sister that is spot on to your close relative. Stopped working in the late 80s and never got another job again even today. Ran my mom out of money after my dad died and after my mom passed away (largely due to my sister) she lived off what was left. Even today no job and I do not know where she is and I do not care in the least...



Well, still love this one, but will NOT offer any further help. I offered advice online (library access, I'd guess, on his part), and instead of a response, I was ignored. Advice like, "Go get the help the shelter offers, in job assistance, and the like, stop stealing from everyone that trie s to help you, stop wasting what little you have on smoking and drinking, and be willing to take ANY job over no job. That last after he told me he "could not" take a low paying job, because it wouldn't cover all expenses. The term "parasite" someone else used is accurate in his case.



posted on Dec, 30 2014 @ 07:03 PM
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a reply to: KyoZero

With the person I mentioned, I wonder sometimes if he's not actually mentally ill, or at least mentally incapacitated, due to drugs and too much drinking over the years. Of course, these days, the system won't commit a person unless they are "harmful" to themselves or others. You'd think being unable to care for ones self, mentally, would be enough, but it isn't. Mostly, though, he really is lazy, with a ridiculous senses of entitlement. I know where that came from, too. Never being made to do any chores, or held responsible for going to school, allowed to sneak out, screw around, whatever, with a parent that bragged about such behavior, as though he could do no wrong. When he did work, he was never, EVER, asked to pay any of his own expenses, and did whatever he wanted with the money. So, it's not really a surprise he acts this way now. When a child has no rules they have to follow, how else could they grow up? Still, he's been counseled that he needed to shape u, for years, but refuses. So, in his case, his entire upbringing contributed.



posted on Dec, 30 2014 @ 10:02 PM
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I sort of stopped reading some of the replies when it comes to certain stereotypes of homeless people.

The ones who are addicted to alcohol are mostly veterans. I can't tell you how many times a homeless person loses a bunk over alcohol. Some of them for the posession of a weapon. The trohble I always had when speaking to the drunken vets is the fact that they can't stop talking about the war they were involved with. But the problem is that they are mostly liars. The only reason why I say this is due to the fact that I could never get them to describe their traumatic event in full detail. No matter what I said to help them tell me their woes they couldn't describe anything more than a vague statement. All of my stories help get veterans to tell me what they saw. But I could pick up on their lies easily. For veterans who have been lying for years I can tell right away when they are crying crocodile tears.

I can tell you that the veterans who truly have seen traumatic events act very differently. I can not tell you how I know the truth from lies because leaking this information will only allow more liars to become more effective at lying. But there are some homeless vets who truly do have ptsd and hate homeless shelters. These are the ones you still can't tell are actually homeless.

When it comes to the drug addicts.....

They are a huge mix of different problems. Most of them have extreme debt problems. Tax evasion to delinquent payments to several credit cards. The smallest amount of credit cards for any I have come across was 3. Some of them took out loans for more than two cars in one year. Some of them still have the car, others suffered repossession. The tax evasive have up to 17 grand in tax penalties combined with amounts owed. While the other addicts have way too many payday loans active.

But some of the other addicts are addicts due to their own outlook on self value due to amputations, or mental defects. Chuckles for example is a complete genetic # up. Can't use his arms correctly, can't walk all to well... he looks like any regular person when standing completely still. But when you ask him something he laughs before he answers. No matter what it is. You could ask him when the bus is coming and he will laugh at you. Then give you an answer and ask you about your day in a normal voice. I gave him a cigarette and the way he walked up to me and underhand grabbed the cig from my hand.... wow. Some of them just want to do nothing but get high 24 7.

Now when it comes to the regular drunks.... non vets... most of the time it is because they missed curfew, or got kicked out of a shelter. Sometimes they are mad at what happened to them that day. Didn't get the job, got in an argument with someone... but in most cases... they got robbed. The biggest problem with people's perception of homeless people is that when one of them acts out, they remember that one forever. So when they end up in your bar.... they are there for the same reason you do, or the others you serve. They are trying to forget about something. If they smell just send them to the patio with a cheap beer. Or sit him in a corner. If someone else complains about the smell then just tell them to sit elsewhere. Don't kick them out. Usually the complainers about the smell aren't even drinking.

Just don't kick them out unless you like hearing the crazy story coming out of the shops nearby about the homeless person who threw pills at a cashier for not taking a swig of his bottle, and then stealing a tip jar and going to the nearest mini mart for more booze.

But when it comes to the craziest homeless people you've heard about... Most of the time it is because they don't want to work. They don't want a family. And they will do anything to con you. I have met a handfull of them that have stopped trying. And get more money panhandling than ever getting a job. But this is only a few. They are the ones you see on the street corners for years. They are the ones whose faces smile and laugh when they get your money. The ones who really need money are the ones who don't smile and laugh. And usually give up the street corner after a few days. You have better chances of finding these people at wal mart around the corners or near the smoking areas of wal marts. They are not there every day. Sometimes they sleep in front of gas stations. Sometimes they sleep behind bus stop benches. These are the ones who at first deny your money. They are the ones who really need it. Because food is expensive. And the dollar store only sells hot dogs that they can eat raw and uncooked. Because no one ever lets them use their microwaves unless they buy something. And then cross contamination from the fda prevents McDonald's or burger king from letting them use theirs.

So yeah. The crazy stories are true, but it only acounts for 15% of homeless people.



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