Roswell for Dummies. :)

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: HumanOnEarth

One of the main ones is that the terms "flying disc" , of which the RAAF claimed they had captured one, was not generally deemed to mean a spaceship back in 1947.

Irrelevant. We couldn't expect them to realize what they had on July 8th since the majority of the craft was yet to be found. It wouldn't matter one bit if they called it a silver turkey on July 8th.

If Marcel didn't fib, why did he not mention any alien bodies in the late 1970s? He was the base intelligence officer. Why was the 'unbreakable' metal described as being scattered across the pasture and all the other parts he described to be very similar to a Mogul balloon?

This is one of the fundamental misunderstandings you have - since you apparently know all the details without even reading them. Marcel at no point was involved with retrieval of bodies. And about the material ==> you're confusing official reports that he was forced to make with actual statements he made (including a rare video interview before his death).

Factual books tend to stick to the facts except where the evidence is almost purely anecdotal like with UFO Crashes.

Thanks for making this argument and building my case. You're cherry-picking things to match your side and conveniently skirting around the hard facts. A book containing sports scores can hardly be compared with the other 99% of literature in this world; where details are commonly sensationalized to sell. Just read the back cover of most any book, or watch the preview for an upcoming show.

Brazel related that on June 14 he and 8-year-old son, Vernon were about 7 or 8 miles from the ranch house of the J.B. Foster ranch, which he operates, when they came upon a large area of bright wreckage made up on (sic) rubber strips, tinfoil, a rather tough paper and sticks.

This was an alleged statement made by Brazel (not in his own words) AFTER he was threatened, detained and paid off. The guy may have been a hard-headed cowboy, but he wasn't stupid enough to get killed over it. I'm going to paraphrase this, but at the time his family noted that he became a changed man, and took them aside and told them "People are going to start telling some huge lies about me, and none of it is true. I know what I saw."

Kevin Randle uncovered his deception [Frank Kaughman's] IIRC.

Right, that's what I implied by "we." My point is that even after the Pro-Roswell side stopped toting Kaughman as a source, the anti-Roswell crew bizarrely kept on including him in their bag of munition.

So how many was it then [regarding many of military personnel, in their 80s and 90s, admitted seeing dead aliens and/or material not from this world]?

Enough to make you uncomfortable. Why would so many of them all start telling the same lie, even to their family just hours before their death?

[regarding carbon nanotubes] Really? en.wikipedia.org...

Ok so according to the wiki a 1991 discovery of carbon-nanotubes is a common misconception, and it was actually in 1952. Is that before 1947 or after 1947?

[regarding the impact trench/gouge that was left at the debris field] What about it and how do you know it was made by an alien spaceship?

Witnesses at the time (including Brazel and his son) reported seeing a trench/gouge. That must have been one seriously hefty balloon.

[regarding the area cordoned off with military checkpoints] Was it? Again it's all anecdotal and which area was cordoned off. It seems there are a number of supposed crash sites many miles apart.

Yes, we've got several people who reported being denied access to the site from different checkpoints. It was certainly cordoned off. And most probably there were multiple crash sites (save Kaughman's) because purportedly the craft skipped.

How do we know citizens were threatened for talking.

Many were. Here's one on video... youtu.be... and plenty more here: www.aliens-everything-you-want-to-know.com...

The US Government also agreed in the 1990s that former military personnel would no longer be bound by their security oaths if they were forthcoming with information in relation to Roswell. And as we all know photographs of the crash site, the recovered craft, autopsy reports on dead alien bodies and reports on communications with the ET Rescue team from Alpha Centauri were nowhere to be found.

I think this was a general order and not specifically related to Roswell. Many had also died by then, and certainly all of them were unaware of this order (until being notified by Schmidt and Randle - who did use it on some occasions to sway their reasoning). It's an irrelevant point because the personnel on-site at that time were only involved in retrieval and everyone died not knowing the full story, even Blanchard.

Finally the Morning Reports from RAAF in July 1947 show nothing out of the ordinary happening

How do you know this card wasn't a replacement for the real card, after the fact? Do you really think an installation that took the issue so seriously would make such a stupid blunder? Not to mention it says July 5th, or 3rd -- before anyone even knew about the wreckage. If it's legit and contains all significant events, then where's the mention of the Mogul balloon collection on this image?

Here's another documentary on Roswell from the BBC :

This is an appeal to authority logical fallacy, and actually, the BBC is notoriously thick-headed on the subject so you can expect what type of docu they'd produce. It would be interesting to follow the money on this one. I'll happy continue the debate if you want to cite specific items from this documentary.

As far as I'm concerned, the final nail in the coffin for the Roswell case is the testimony of Bessie Brazel, Mac Brazel's daughter. She too handled the debris and, decades later, described it as sticks, tinfoil-like material, rubber, and tape with flower designs on it. Her account of the debris fits with the Project Mogul ballon explanation. The flower design tape in particular has been identified as one of the key materials used in the construction of the Project Mogul radar reflectors, which were attached to the skyhook weather balloons.

Remember, the Mogul flights consisted of several balloons tied together carrying dozens of radar reflectors, metal sonobuoy microphones, and possibly other high-tech equipment. Upon crashing, it would have made for quite a large field of debris of unusual-looking material.

originally posted by: The GUT
Check out that blog, y'all! Lots of superb articles on all the freaky topics we like here.

Thanks for the interesting story and the link to the blog! I look forward to reading more!

originally posted by: HumanOnEarth
[regarding carbon nanotubes] Really? en.wikipedia.org...
Ok so according to the wiki a 1991 discovery of carbon-nanotubes is a common misconception, and it was actually in 1952. Is that before 1947 or after 1947?

What difference does it make? Do you think people only started breathing oxygen when oxygen was discovered? Or that carbon nanotubes didn't exist before they were discovered? The link you apparently glossed over explains how they could have been and probably were produced before their discovery, and I'm pretty sure that oxygen also existed before its discovery too:

carbon nanotubes are not necessarily products of high-tech laboratories; they are commonly formed in such mundane places as ordinary flames, produced by burning methane, ethylene, and benzene, and they have been found in soot from both indoor and outdoor air.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
The link you apparently glossed over explains how they could have been and probably were produced before their discovery...

IIRC, you get some fluffy carbon nanotube formation in that crap that falls out of the air as strings when you light an acetylene torch.

a reply to: HumanOnEarth

I think there are problems on both sides of the story but if you want me to continue playing Devil's Advocate then OK.

We couldn't expect them to realize what they had on July 8th since the majority of the craft was yet to be found. It wouldn't matter one bit if they called it a silver turkey on July 8th.

This is also why the newspaper "RAAF Captures Flying Saucer..." headline viewed today can easily mislead people.

Contemporary descriptions of the debris are all of tinfoil, broken wood beams, tape and rubber.





Source : Roswell Daily Record 9th July 1947

Do you not think it a coincidence that this spaceship was made of tinfoil, wood, tape and rubber? Either that or the debris on the Foster ranch was not that from a crashed spaceship.

Marcel at no point was involved with retrieval of bodies. And about the material ==> you're confusing official reports that he was forced to make with actual statements he made

So not only Brazel made false statements but Marcel was also forced to as well? Also if Marcel was the base intelligence officer don't you think he would have known about any alien bodies that turned up in the desert as well?

Thanks for making this argument and building my case. You're cherry-picking things to match your side and conveniently skirting around the hard facts

Please give us some hard undeniable facts about this case to prove something not of this earth crashed then.

Witnesses at the time (including Brazel and his son) reported seeing a trench/gouge. That must have been one seriously hefty balloon.

Please tell me who to believe. Marcel states something exploded in the air. Even if there was a gouge how do we know when it was made?

Major Jesse Marcel: Roswell chief of intelligence; long, narrow debris field. 3/4 mile long; lot of debris
Tommy Tyree: Mack Brazel ranch-hand; sheep detoured a mile around debris field
Bill Brazel Jr.: Rancher Mack Brazel's son; long/narrow field, ~1/4 mile; gouge at northern end
Bud Payne: Neighboring rancher; got to southern edge of debris field
M/Sgt. Louis Rickett: Roswell Army counterintelligence corp; gouge; large cleanup operation
Sgt. Earl Fulford: New! 2009 Aircraft mechanic; cleanup crew; square mile or 1/4 mile x 900 ft. area
Walt Whitmore Jr.: Son of Roswell radio station KGFL owner; gouge; later changed stories
Brig. Gen. Arthur Exon: Former C/O Wright-Patt.AFB; later overflew debris field area; gouges
Robin Adair: Associated Press photographer; tried to overfly debris field; gouge on ground
Jason Kellahin: AP reporter, large balloon crash site at Brazel's place
Bessie Brazel Schreiber: Daughter of Mack Brazel; football field size area
Phyllis Wilcox McGuire: Daughter of Sheriff George Wilcox; large burn area; football field size
Barbara Dugger: Granddaughter of Sheriff Wilcox; large burn area
Sheriff George Wilcox: United Press account of what Brazel reported; small, singular object
Sgt. Robert Porter: Accompanied Marcel to Fort Worth; small quantity of wrapped debris
Lt. Robert Shirkey: Roswell operations officer observed loading of Marcel's plane; boxes of debris
Sgt. Robert Smith: Air transport unit; involved in loading crates of debris into C-54's; debris cleanup
Sgt. Robert Slusher: Roswell B-29 flight engineer, unusual July 9 crate shipment; met by mortician
"Tim": Another crew member with Slusher; same story about crate and mortician
Cpt. Sheridan Cavitt: Roswell chief of counterintelligence; tiny 20 foot square crash area


Or Jesse Marcel Snr.

When we [Marcel & Cavitt] arrived at the crash site, it was amazing to see the vast amount of area it covered. It was nothing that hit the ground or exploded [on] the ground. It's something that must have exploded above ground, traveling perhaps at a high rate of speed, we don't know. But it scattered over an area of about three quarters of a mile long, I would say, and fairly wide, several hundred feet wide."

(R&S2) [It was clear to him that ] something ... must have exploded above the ground and fell. [With Cavitt's help he was able to] determine which direction it came from and which direction it was heading. "It was in that pattern ... You could tell where it started and where it ended by how it was thinned out .. I could tell that it was thicker where we first started looking and it was thinning out was we went southwest."

Sources : roswellproof.homestead.com...

I think this was a general order and not specifically related to Roswell. Many had also died by then, and certainly all of them were unaware of this order (until being notified by Schmidt and Randle - who did use it on some occasions to sway their reasoning). It's an irrelevant point because the personnel on-site at that time were only involved in retrieval and everyone died not knowing the full story, even Blanchard.

Not according to the documentation.

While the historical document search was in progress, it was decided to attempt to locate and interview several persons identified as still living who could possibly answer questions generated by the research. This had never been
officially done before, although most of the persons contacted reported that they had also been contacted in the past by some of the listed authors or other private researchers.

In order to counter possible future arguments that the persons interviewed were still "covering up" material because of prior security oaths, the interviewees were provided with authorization from either the Secretary of the Air Force or the Senior Security Official of the Air Force that would officially allow discussion of classified information, if applicable, or free them from any prior restriction in discussing the matter, if such existed.

Again, the focus was on interviewing persons that could address specific issues raised by research and no consideration was given to try and locate every alleged witness claimed to have been contacted by the various authors.

Source; p16 - The Roswell Report Fact vs Fiction in the New Mexico Desert (free pdf download link)

As for the Morning Reports, the July 1947 documents, were examined in a report for Popular Mechanics - June 2003 and turned up nothing indicating anything unusual on the base during the whole month.


===============

Oh and (no longer playing Devil's Advocate) I do quite like some of Kevin Randle's work

a reply to: HumanOnEarth

So how many was it then?

[regarding many of military personnel, in their 80s and 90s, admitted seeing dead aliens and/or material not from this world]

Enough to make you uncomfortable. Why would so many of them all start telling the same lie, even to their family just hours before their death?

Who exactly are you talking about? Corso? Bushman?

One thing about Roswell that I think is important is to consider the absurdity of an alien race coming zillions of miles to earth just to have an accident like any old airplane.
Does that make any sense?

Not to me.

You have the technology to travel like that and can’t avoid an accident in a desert?

What is the likelihood of that?
Not very likely in my estimation.

It does render these indestructible aliens human to some degree if they can have such a pedestrian accident and even get killed in the process just like any of us humans. Gee maybe they’re even highjacked once in a while. Some Klingons may take over their ships here and there throughout the universe.

AN ALIEN 911?

I doubt it

For those of you with access to RATS, please feel free to u2u for a link to an interesting article relevant to this discussion.

@ HumanOnEarth: You keep screaming for "facts" and you are then given a ton of them from at least one excellent researcher and then when asked for all those deathbed confessions and proof of military cordons and such you clam up.

You've been out-researched. This could be a big turning point for you if you have a desire to go where the evidence leads...and it ain't Zeta Reticuli.

originally posted by: Willtell
You have the technology to travel like that and can’t avoid an accident in a desert?

What is the likelihood of that?
Not very likely in my estimation.

If your spacecraft is made of foil scotch taped to balsa wood kite sticks, the interstellar journey probably takes its toll, and it's ready to fall apart by the time it has traveled trillions of miles.

a reply to: The GUT

What you got GUT?

The only RATS I know are Republicans.

Kick it out; what’s the site?

BTW thanks much for the VISUP guy. He’s pretty cool

originally posted by: Flatwoods
I too was once intrigued by the Roswell story, until I did enough research to nail down the "core story" of Brazel's debris field and subsequent media sensation. If one is to go beyond that...in other words, to involve things like alien bodies and a crashed spaceship, one must accept the idea of a second debris site. I simply can't find enough proof of this to meet my satisfaction.

I think most of the folk sharing pertinent information here have been in the same boat and are certainly not "debunkers." We were looking hard at Roswell and excited, but the discrepancies start to nag and then ultimately--after carefully reading both sides--the case for a non-ET event becomes fairly inescapable.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong--and I might have even read it or posted it myself here--but doesn't William Moore himself disavow Roswell as an ET event these days?

The mighty gortex posted the following commercial featuring Stanton Friedman hawking pasta sauce in CardDown's thread UFOlogy, We Need To Talk... Chris Rutkowski Editorial

They introduce Stanton as a "Paranormal Investigator" and, of course, Nuclear Physicist. Paranormal investigator? Not Ufologist?

Is Stanton finally coming out of the closet and capitulating to his betters? (Hynek, Vallee, Keel). Quite the salesman, anyhoo:



So my statement above should maybe clear the air for anyone who thinks I'm a "debunker."

I still put ET in my top three, but my list has changed order over the years as I've delved deeper into the subject.

1. Some form of the Inter-Extra-Ultra-Quantam-String-Some Such-hypothesis

2. Some Jungian-esque sociological mechanism related to human consciousness and possibly "group consciousness."

3. E.T.

However, it's time to let Roswell and all the entire so-called modern mythology go. mirageman's list (Roswell, Rendlesham, Travis Walton, Kecksburg, The Hills Abduction, Socorro) was a pretty good inventory to burn and turn over a new leaf for the new year and maybe, hopefully, start building a newer-better-faster "ufology." Sir IsaacKoi is I do believe one of the visionaries whose lead to follow. The CAIPAN cats, too.

For more on CAIPAN and some GREAT materials check out karl 12's Proceedings of the CAIPAN Paris workshop on UAP/UFOs.

originally posted by: Flatwoods
As far as I'm concerned, the final nail in the coffin for the Roswell case is the testimony of Bessie Brazel, Mac Brazel's daughter. She too handled the debris and, decades later, described it as sticks, tinfoil-like material, rubber, and tape with flower designs on it.

Your reasoning is very logical because she was on-site and should have been witness to it. I would agree with you and I understand your mindset here. But, Bessie later retracted her statement/affidavit and apologized because she had mixed up two separate events (it also didn't correlate with Marcel or Cavitts account which was the initial red flag showing that she had remembered the wrong event). Schmidt recounts Bessie's retraction in one of his lectures.



originally posted by: mirageman

I think there are problems on both sides of the story but if you want me to continue playing Devil's Advocate then OK.

You can play whatever you want.

Do you not think it a coincidence that this spaceship was made of tinfoil, wood, tape and rubber? Either that or the debris on the Foster ranch was not that from a crashed spaceship.

Admittedly, there are conflicting reports from almost every witness who lived during that time. You are consistently choosing evidence from the post-threat/post-coverup array while avoiding the pre-threat/pre-coverup bits. This is the way of the born skeptic (you select the items which fit your pre-determined mindset), meanwhile, proponents have looked at the entire Roswell case as a whole before drawing conclusions. Over 90% of those who reported balsa wood, sticks and tape, also reported quite the opposite at another point in time.

So not only Brazel made false statements but Marcel was also forced to as well?

Absolutely. Marcel made this clear. Very clear. Being forced to make false statements is what gave rise to the whole convoluted enigma that we're dealing with. I suggest you go back to the beginning and start all over.

Please give us some hard undeniable facts about this case to prove something not of this earth crashed then.

500+ witnesses for the ufo/et case, and zero for an alternate explanation (if you don't include post-threat/post-coverup accounts).

Please tell me who to believe. Marcel states something exploded in the air. Even if there was a gouge how do we know when it was made?

It was a fresh gouge noticed by Brazel and plenty of others. This is crystal clear. And, whenever there are multiple witnesses to one event, somewhat varying accounts are common and is not valid evidence of lies, distortion, or otherwise. One object could both explode AND cause a gouge mark immediately after. In fact I would be concerned if it were only one or the other.

Not according to the documentation.

I cannot comment on this yet. It's been a while since I've been through it.



originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

Who exactly are you talking about? Corso? Bushman?

Benjamin and Benthal for starters.



originally posted by: Willtell

One thing about Roswell that I think is important is to consider the absurdity of an alien race coming zillions of miles to earth just to have an accident like any old airplane. Does that make any sense? Not to me.

Really? They've reached a point in evolution where no mistakes can be made? This is absurd.



originally posted by: The GUT

You keep screaming for "facts" and you are then given a ton of them from at least one excellent researcher and then when asked for all those deathbed confessions and proof of military cordons and such you clam up.

If going to sleep and refreshing the page in the morning is clamming up, then yes i clammed up. I've been citing basic concepts that many of you, as I gather from the types of questions being asked, are just hearing about for the first time. I don't mind educating people about the fun facts of Roswell, but at times it feels like I'm teaching an introductory course here.

I'm really not being condescending but I want to know ==> how many witness testimony videos have you watched, AND how many pro-Roswell (non terrestrial explanation themed) books you've been through in the last 2 years (so that you're working with fresh memories)?

originally posted by: HumanOnEarth
But, Bessie later retracted her statement/affidavit and apologized because she had mixed up two separate events (it also didn't correlate with Marcel or Cavitts account which was the initial red flag showing that she had remembered the wrong event). Schmidt recounts Bessie's retraction in one of his lectures.

Not exactly sourced that, especially in light of Bessie's sworn affidavits. So, it's "Schmidt said," or is there documentation?

How many alleged FIRST HAND witnesses are on record, btw?

i don't know enough about the details of the roswell case to comment on what happened

are there any usaf post crash reports/documentation that have been released? - if there was initial confusion over the identity of a crashed ballon train, once the wreckage had been collected up and looked at, some kind of reports must have gone somewhere

did they send the wreckage back to the mogul people? - did the mogul people document the crash? - i would have thought the details of crashes would be important to record on a project of that nature

i find it interesting that the line from some intelligence sources over recent years has become pro roswell

link

A long-serving CIA agent has spoken out on the 65th anniversary of the Roswell Incident to reveal a hidden CIA file on the 'UFO' that was supposedly found at the site - and says, 'It really happened.'
Conspiracy theorists believe that alien bodies from the crashed 'disc' were autopsied - and that modern technologies have been built on discoveries from inside the craft.
Chase Brandon, an agent who served 25 years with the agency, said that the information is concealed in a hidden vault within the agency's Langley headquarters.
'It was in a vaulted area - there was one box that really caught my eye. It had one word on it: Roswell. I rummaged inside it, put the box on the shelf and said, "My God, it really happened."

especially in connection with the 'core story' promotion by green/doty/bosley in mirage men

originally posted by: The GUT
How many alleged FIRST HAND witnesses are on record, btw?

Depends on who is doing the alleging. Some allege hundreds, but according to Printy it's "about 50", and 41 according to Pflock, of whom 23 came in contact with the debris and most of those didn't notice any unusual properties of the debris (7 did). Even Marcel's famous claim that you couldn't destroy the debris with a sledgehammer isn't something that he tried to do himself, so that's not even a first hand account even though he handled the debris.

Roswell Myths

The "sledge hammer" test was never seen by Jesse. He was too busy doing other things and only suggested that it had been attempted by some unidentified enlisted men....

According to Karl Pflock, there are only 41 individuals on record to have been actual witnesses to the events in question. Of these only 23 can be considered to have actually come in contact with the debris and only 7 actually state seeing unusual properties in this debris. Many of the 41 witnesses Karl lists were not even interviewed. After examining the list of witnesses in most of the books, I could only find about fifty or so, primary witnesses or witnesses that might have had knowledge of the events. Out of these 50, some stated they saw nothing unusual or have been shown to have fabricated much of their testimony.

originally posted by: aynock
i don't know enough about the details of the roswell case to comment on what happened

are there any usaf post crash reports/documentation that have been released? -

The USAF released two reports. One in 1994 and one in 1998. I linked to the first one here. That site also has links to the CIA report, the GAO report and other links.

But to understand the case you need to read beyond the official reports. I suggest starting with this list of UFO articles by a guy who has tried to do a lot of unbiased research.

a reply to: HumanOnEarth

Benjamin and Benthal for starters.

Oh come on. I need full names and links to make me uncomfortable.

Marcel wasn't a slut. He headed the most prestigious bomb group that dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Tip, Top clearance of all tech stuff from the war and all the captured Nazi stuff from the war and all in charge of the base and authority to determine course of action about press releases from the base about top, top secret Mogul projects, if nothing else to draw world attention to all the top, top most secretest base on the planet at the time, full of secret doings to be hidden at the height of the New Cold War and he just lets loose a broad side to the world press drawing attention to himself, the base and all the best goodies…

"Hey here we are intentionally 'hidden' In the desert trying to be quiet as possible so as to not draw attention from the Soviets with nuclear weapons technology captured Nazi tech, radar, guided weapons, jets, rockets ,what have you and guess whaaat ?

"We Have A UFO"

His primary mission is to keep that place and all that activity on the low down as much as possible. I can't imagine a more stupid thing to do and draw attention…

Nothing so much as this point gives me pause to question the official story. I am old enough to know how that has changed over the years, despite it just being about some sticks and rubber balloons, something Marcel would have intimate knowledge about anyway. Try and convince me he just went off one day after a russian nuke test and claimed some Mogul secret op was a UFO in a press release.

a reply to: intrptr

it does look like amateur hour - is it possible it was deliberate and aimed at the soviets?

Records from the period reviewed by Air Force researchers as well as those cited by the authors mentioned before, do indicate that the USAF was seriously concerned about the inability to adequately identify unknown flying objects reported in American airspace. All the records, however, indicated that the focus of concern was not on aliens, hostile or otherwise, but on the Soviet Union. Many documents from that period speak to the possibility of developmental secret Soviet aircraft overflying US airspace. This, of course, was of major concern to the fledgling USAF, whose job it was to protect these same skies.

from the executive summary of the 1994 usaf report

link

originally posted by: intrptr
some sticks and rubber balloons, something Marcel would have intimate knowledge about anyway.

Where did he get that intimate knowledge?

a reply to: HumanOnEarth

[regarding many of military personnel, in their 80s and 90s, admitted seeing dead aliens and/or material not from this world]
Enough to make you uncomfortable. Why would so many of them all start telling the same lie, even to their family just hours before their death?

Benjamin and Benthal for starters

I am pretty sure this "Benjamin" didn't die right after this SyFy episode. A more interesting question is why is the forensics expert so hot? Is she really a model playing a role? I hate to nit pick but I dont think this qualifies as anything other than an episode of syfy investigates.