Roswell for Dummies. :)

The Roswell story like most of the AlienUFO history is filled with information AND misinformation to such a degree it would take Sherlock Holmes, Colombo, and Kojak to solve this case with any degree of certainty—it has become a detective story with witnesses who are like the Grand Jury in the Micheal Brown killing case…

The intervention of “heroes” such as Colonel Corsi who claimed that he was the lead man in extracting alien technology from the accident has apparently been discredited and only may indicate more deliberate misinformation or just the unwanted and unneeded intervention of an egomaniac, either way it only adds to the smokescreen around Roswell.

Now we have the myth that, no, it wasn’t the CIA, or Mafia, or some other hidden group that killed Kennedy…NO this was done because HE KNEW TOO MUCH ABOUT ROSWELL and wanted to know more.

You wonder, considering the governments constant confabulations about Roswell, whether Corso type interventions and these myths are more Rick Doti like misinformation…it seems to be the case.

We have to understand we are dealing with pros in psychological and misinformation warfare that makes it difficult to get to the truth.

And when you add the singular thing that plaguess human beings search for the truth more than almost anything, the human ego, then it just gets worse

I read Corso's book years ago and admittedly was impressed but this internet posting seems to bust him down and peg him as a Walter Mitty type egomaniac...

greyfalcon.us...
Corso claims he marched right past a startled secretary and into the office of the CIA director of covert operations, Frank "Wiesner" (sic), at CIA headquarters in "Langley, Virginia," and told him off. As indicated above, this must have been "a couple of days" after the initial meeting with Gen. Trudeau, in early May 1961. Keep this date in mind as you read on, as it explodes Corso's story as a tissue of lies. Corso claims he warned "Wiesner" that he would start carrying a gun and if he ever found a CIA man following him again, the agent's body would later be found with bullet holes in his head. Later in 1961, "Wiesner" himself was found dead by hanging in a London hotel room, the victim of suicide, Corso claims. Better not tangle with that Corso, no telling what might happen!

One has to realize this is a research intensive field, UFOlogy, so one should never get exited over one source or even two sources since the ego of the individual may be involved or the bogie man of the DOTI-like misinformation man may be in the mix…

But never feel too discouraged

Seek and ye shall find

Keep lookin, stay objective and keep your ego in check you’ll get the truth for whatever its worth
And truth is always worth its weight in Gold!

a reply to: Willtell

The Roswell story like most of the AlienUFO history is filled with information AND misinformation to such a degree it would take Sherlock Holmes, Colombo, and Kojak to solve this case with any degree of certainty—

It usually does take fictional characters to solve fictional stories.

I'm sorry that Roswell broke your heart, Gut. But that's no excuse for you to call her a slut full of holes. You have be an adult about the break-up and realize that the two of you were just not right for each other. I don't know if the passion waned, it's really none of my business. But I do know a woman is likely to leave a guy who doesn't understand her, or a guy who doesn't seem to have a clue as to what she's really about. Some women leave a guy who can't keep up with them on an intellectual level.

Better to have loved and lost, I guess.

An appropriate thread title, however.

a reply to: CardDown

Something that puzzled me a bit is how this thread suddenly disappeared from the front page of this site; other threads seem to be less active but are still up there. I wonder what the algorithm does that decides what is on the front page ...

Anyway. OP had the brilliant idea of putting up a thread here on the events of 1947. There is a site on the Internet y'all may find of interest.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

I think a few of the most active threads of those specific thread's first five days of being posted are pinned to the top of the forum.

originally posted by: Scdfa
I'm sorry that Roswell broke your heart, Gut. But that's no excuse for you to call her a slut full of holes. You have be an adult about the break-up and realize that the two of you were just not right for each other. I don't know if the passion waned, it's really none of my business. But I do know a woman is likely to leave a guy who doesn't understand her, or a guy who doesn't seem to have a clue as to what she's really about. Some women leave a guy who can't keep up with them on an intellectual level.

Better to have loved and lost, I guess.

An appropriate thread title, however.

My alternate title was Roswell for Dumb Sluts, but it just didn't have the same sizzle I thought.

Joking aside, I appreciate your well-written words of sympathy & wisdom, but boy-o-boy do I ever understand what a turn-off mis-matched I.Q.s are and, further, I regret that in this instance I can't be a "Gentleman" and still conceive of myself as having a mere sufficiency or modicum of the kind of character I aspire to. No, the metaphorical gloves are off and flung to the ground and in hindsight I actually should have sputtered, 'Lying Slut!'

And yes that includes the USG. However, it's not the USG that is our real enemy here. No, they seem most probably to have merely bumbled their way into OPSEC brilliance and a whole new field--maybe the greatest of them all--was born unto PSYOPS. What Dali might call the "happy accident" in the art world.

No, my interesting new friend Scdfa, the real enemy is the naked, portly, hairy, bearded cat sitting behind the Roswell Central computer sending deceiving pictures of sexy photoshopped E.T.s under the username sexxysportsmodelrosie-zetagurlseemyarea51 if'n you catch my drift. Then again, is that Unca' Sam I see peeking over his shoulder looking all hot and Pee-Wee Herman??

a reply to: ForteanOrg

That does look like a cool site. Thanks.

Project 1947

originally posted by: cuckooold
...At Roswell, why not convince some people they have seen an alien craft, and have others see the crash of the Mogul balloon? That way, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and vice versa. So you will have some convinced of one thing, others of another, and each group are sure of their truth. Mixed signals are sent out in the press, and create a UFO/Aliens mythology, which continues to be propagated throughout the rest of the century.

It's certainly a tight enough fit, brother cuckooold. Some kind of spin on Robert Anton Wilson's example of a "Strange Loop.":

Robert Anton Wilson

"Knight knew what most people only vaguely suspected -- that IntelligenceAgencies engage in both the collection of valid signals (information) and the promiscuous dissemination of fake signals (disinformation).

They collected the information so that they could form a fairly accurate picture of what was really going on; they spread the disinformation so that all their competitors would form grossly inaccurate pictures. They did this because they knew that whoever could find out what the hell was really going on possessed an advantage over those who were misinformed, confused and disoriented.

What the Double-Cross experts had invented was the practical political applications of the Strange Loop. In logic or cybernetics, a Strange Loop is a set of propositions that, while valid at each point, is so constructed that it leads to an unresolvable paradox. The Double-Cross people drove the Germans bonkers by inventing disinformation systems that, if believed, were deceptive, but if doubted led to a second disinformation system. They enjoyed this work so much that, at times, they invented Triple Loops...

These Strange Loops functioned especially well because the Double-Cross experts had early on fed the Germans the primordial Strange Loop. "Most of your agents are working for us and feeding your Strange Loops."

Many German agents, it later turned out, had managed to collect quite a bit of accurate information about the Normandy invasion, but many others turned in equally plausible information about a fictitious Norwegian invasion; and all of them were under suspicion, anyway. German Intelligence might as well have made its decisions by tossing a coin in the air."

--Robert Anton Wilson

I'm near convinced that the whole bureaucratic intelligence system/MIC has not only strange-looped us, but themselves as well. Or, maybe, ultimately, this most mysterious of all phenomenon--the UFO Mandala--has hopelessly and easily been looping us both.

Roswell never was in my blood. It’s too commercialized.

When that happens it’s usually the standard cover-up of distracting us from something else…something legitimate and real.

Or they’re mucking up the story so much that it begins to smell so bad that people, real researchers, won’t go near it with a ten foot pole. So what’s left are guys who only want to write a book…these guys have sold their little souls for a few thousand copies, or their egos have led the way to bs.

That’s probably where the truth lies inside all the muck and mire of disinformation, misinformation, and ego misinformation.

It’s like someone has thrown the gold coin away in the garbage can and one has to get it out of there.

It may be right in front of us based on the hide in plain site scenario.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
...Perhaps he simply wanted to save face. But why does a guy that has found balloons before insist this was not a weather balloon he found? And why did the sheep refuse to pass by the debris - surely, debris from a small balloon does not have that effect on sheep?

Because I know you are an intelligent man and not some believe-anything-neophyte, and also because I see how fairly close you are to your own Roswell epiphany (you can do it, forty!) as evidenced by your 'grasping at sheep' as it were, ahem, I have delved into the surprisingly fascinating behavioral psycho-sociology of sheep so as to be of assistance.

The link provided below is worth a visit for matters unrelated to Roswell and UFOs, but in our case it does seem to suggest an answer to your question. I've excerpted the relevancies. Bolding mine:

* Sheep resist moving from one type of surface to another.

*Sheep have no depth perception, so shadows, dark
surfaces and water are an issue.

*Sheep fear new visual objects.

Understanding Sheep Behaviour

Baaaa is in your court.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
The idea of using UFO mythology to deflect attention from secret military hardware is valid enough, but there's no indication I'm aware of this took place at Roswell in 1947. By the 1950s this strategy was probably used to deflect attention from U2 flights, but again the Roswell case was not part of the strategy...it was pretty much forgotten.

The Roswell mythology didn't become significant until decades later, when some UFOlogists promoted the idea.

Just how early were the intelligence agencies utilizing and/or experimenting with the UFO narrative for various disinformation purposes? Aztec was brought up and it really makes me wonder. Along with Kenneth Arnold himself concluding that Maury Island was likely some kind of intelligence scam. That big ol' modern mythology baby was seemingly being birthed right then.

The following is from a very excellent blog featuring excellent writing and research. The article this is excerpted from is an educational read on the characters and UFO enigmas that Bybyots and Willtell mentioned. Here's some from that article about Aztec and mysterious shenanigans at a college:

..."However, the origins of the Roswell story don't lie in Roswell itself, but about 350 miles north-west in the small town of Aztec, New Mexico. In 1950 the popular and outspoken Variety magazine columnist Frank Scully published a non-fiction book, Behind the Flying Saucers, which centred on a bizarre lecture given on 8 March 1950 at the University of Denver, Colorado.

In what sounds more like a market research experiment than an academic lecture, ninety science students were asked to attend a presentation on flying saucers by an anonymous lecturer. Word quickly spread around campus and on the day the hall was filled to capacity. In the fifty-minute presentation, the mysterious expert announced that not only were the flying saucers real, but that four of them had landed -not crashed -on Earth and three of these had been captured by the US Air Force.

"One of the larger craft, 100 feet across, had landed near Aztec, New Mexico; both the disc and its dead occupants were ferried off to Wright Patterson Air Force Base for examination. In fact this was not a new story: aviation historian Curtis Peebles dates it back to a prank account published by the Aztec Independent Review in 1948, which mentioned a saucer crash and little men from Venus.

According to Frank Scully, the three captured craft contained the bodies of thirty-four alien beings. These looked much like humans but were smaller in stature, 'of fair complexion' and lacked beards, though some of them had managed to cultivate 'a fine growth resembling peach fuzz...'

"Following the Denver lecture, attendees were asked whether they believed the presenter; 60 per cent said they did. Within hours, many also found themselves being questioned by Air Force Intelligence officers. Scully notes that a follow-up questionnaire was carried out among the students, and that the number who believed the presentation had fallen from 60 to 50 per cent, which was still considerably higher than the national average who believed that flying saucers came from Outer Space (about 20 per cent according to Scully). The message from the lecture was clear: exposure to a convincing source of information encouraged even bright college students to believe the improbable...

"In his diaries Newton wrote that after his identity was revealed by the Denver Post he was approached by two members of a 'highly secret US government entity' who told him that they knew his UFO crash story was a hoax, but that he should continue to tell it. If he did then 'they and the people they worked for would look out for me [Newton] and for Leo [Gebauer].

Were these mystery men figments of Newton's devious imagination, Air Force Intelligence agents, FBI or CIA officers, or, perhaps, Navy men out to cause more trouble for the US Air Force? We can only wonder, but they got what they wanted. Scully's book was rushed out in 1950 and sold around 60,000 copies, making it a bestseller of its day and further cementing the details of the flying saucer myth in the American imagination. Newton had done his job well.

VISUP Blog

Check out that blog, y'all! Lots of superb articles on all the freaky topics we like here.

a reply to: 1ofthe9

1o9, this is especially for you. The author collates much on the nine, Puharich, Space Kids, Alphabets, Vallee, SRI, etc and maybe even adds some new information to the stew along with some astute observations:

Close Encounters of the PSYOPS Kind Pt. III

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Again, just looking at some early dates that might suggest "Flying Disc" psyops had been in play for awhile. The following is from a well-respected site called Citizens For Truth About the Kennedy Assassination (CTKA.)

It's a wonderfully researched document and basically has nothing to do with UFOs until two historical contexts meet. Again, I highly recommend following the link for some great investigation and fascinating reading.

Dr. ‘Feel Good’ Notes a Diversion

“It should not come as a surprise that Davidson suffered persecution by the CIA. This is extremely telling when compared to the lack of action taken against other researchers who claim that the CIA and other agencies are engaged in a massive cover-up concerning alien contact. So it’s okay to say that the CIA is hiding little green men, but when you say the CIA has concocted the story of little green men, the CIA hunts you down…”
-Phil Coppens, A Lone Chemist’s Quest to Expose the UFO Cover-Up

“Over the next six decades, the UFO mythology, and those who engaged with it, would continue to be exploited, steered and shaped by America’s armed forces and intelligence agencies. Who knows how differently things would have evolved if the UFO community had paid more attention to Leon Davidson, ufology’s lost prophet.”
-Mark Pilkington, Weapons of Mass Deception

The fine work of Mark Pilkington and Phil Coppens concerning the studies of Los Alamos scientist and Manhattan Project participant Dr Leon Davidson have bought much needed clarity and scope to the UFO equation. Davidson, whom enjoyed some small fame as a commentator on the subject, had begun investigating and tabulating all manner of UFO interactions in 1949 (and researching those prior). He had grave suspicions about the CIA’s involvement with disinformation concerning UFOs and all manner of PSYOPs (Psychological Operations) well ahead of his time.

Indeed, Davidson, often without knowing it, seems to have passed comment on both Operation Mockingbird and a certain infamous CIA drug induced program, years before they ever came to light. Davidson appears to have been open to the possibility of alien UFOs, but seems to have always believed in their being man made. He campaigned to have the government release unpublished documents pertaining to projects in the fifties namely Project Blue Book Special Report No. 14. But what’s odd is that he soon felt that he had been a conduit for US intelligence passing off false data about the US military’s use of captured alien technology.

www.ctka.net...

I'm with the theory that Corso did one last job for the Intelligence Community with Day After Roswell. The IC has promoted Roswell like Sony has promoted The Interview!

Dr. Leon Davidson is certainly an unsung hero of sane ufology. Hopefully history will continue to recognize him and what his work revealed. Davidson gave that old asshole Allen Dulles headaches, God bless him!

a reply to: The GUT

Great site.
Ive researched thoroughly this period. The Stargate Conspiracy and Sinister Forces are the main volumes as well Pharaoh’s own work that will get one into the crux of this interesting period of 1947-48 to 1953 all the way to Puharich and Geller in the 70’s.

This period in my research is the most important time in all this weird stuff and has various possibilities, including that it is a psyop but I don’t believe it is or was completely that at first.

In the beginning some occult force very well may have contacted Puharich and company in 1953. Later his own ego and the negative forces around him including the CIA and Army as well the inexperienced mystics who approached his work may have sent the occult force running, or into another stream leaving a carcass of misguidance to cover its own tracks, imo, or led to the distortion of this strange NINE phenomenon.

That’s actually how occult forces do work, in my experience. They or it has an agenda and if one tries to coop it with their own agenda one can be accommodated though to the misfortune of that person or persons.

Puharich ended up broke and paranoid worrying about whether the CIA would murder him.

For the real ambitious researcher this part of this very deep story, the Puharich episode(s) along with the Roswell connection, the Arnold adventure, and the side that deals with the occult work of Parsons, Crowley and Hubbard just about covers it all.
One can throw in Adamski, since he is reportedly supposed to also have had contact with the military intelligence. Here it is speculated they were creating a meme…maybe?

All this seems to point to psyop but I would never be dogmatic about such a matter so pregnant with possibilities.

The reason the Army, CIA and military would be perfectly capable and desirable to coop this spooky stuff is because it never is a good image for the government to not be in control so they would naturally try to say: WE DID ALL THIS
BS! They are as ignorant as we are… imo.

True the army and CIA were close by these events but that in itself doesn’t prove psyop only the reality that they were looking and seeking the strange themselves.

If I may add this editorial commentary:

The problem with this stuff is that we get dogmatic and think we know the truth.

But the problem is learning to live with uncertainty.

Just gather the facts and possibilities as best one can and wait for certainty, it will come but truth never follows our desires. It has its own agenda.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
If you can prove that I'm wrong, I will gladly stand corrected, but as it is now I uphold my statement: Flying Saucer meant Flying Disk v.v. in these days.

August 1947 Gallup Poll
"What do you think these saucers are?"

No answer, don't know 33%
Imagination, optical illusions, mirages, etc. 29%
Hoax 10%
US secret weapon, part of atomic bomb, etc. 15%
Weather forecasting devices 3%
Russian secret weapon 1%
Searchlights on airplanes 2%
Other explanations 9%

PROJECT 1947: August 1947 Gallup Poll
I've read that spaceships were mentioned, but came in below 1%.

If Roswell has come this far with debunking, then why not go all the way? Don't tease! What is the conspiracy theory that the Government is behind the UFO/Alien claims? Was it planned months in advanced? Are any of the individuals involved with the wreckage at the time able to discuss their viewpoint today?

The problem I see that I don't think has been mentioned, farmers handling alien craft. Is it actually possible to pick it up with your bare hands as opposed to the movie ET, and be in full hazmat suits?

Wow. I haven't read the entire thread yet but....

It's blatantly obvious that the anti-Roswell folks are conveniently cherry-picking their quarrels and have a fundamental misunderstanding of the pro-Roswell stance.

Here are examples of cherry-picking I've seen thus far:

1. Marcel was an unreliable witness because he fibbed before -- is it also impossible for a comedian to have a ufo sighting?
   
2. Facts are sensationalized to sell books -- with what topic are they not?
   
3. Brazel reported mogul-like debris -- a scared man who was covering his tracks AFTER he'd been paid
   
4. Kaughman was a fake -- yeah, we're the ones who told you that
   

How about discussing some of the inconvenient facts like how many of military personnel, in their 80s and 90s, admitted seeing dead aliens and/or material not from this world? How about the carbon-nanotubes found under microscope in Roswell debris (technology not conceived until 1991)? How about the impact trench/gouge that was left at the debris field? How about the fact that the military was surprised by the crash because they hadn't lost any of their aircraft, and why was the debris flown to Wright-Pat? Why was the area cordoned off with military checkpoints? Why did dozens of people come out with corroborating recounts of handling debris with inexplicable qualities? Why were citizens threatened for talking? How could thousands of "lies" be so well corroborated?

Over the years I've found a common theme when it comes to paranormal/fringe topics. It's that skeptics aren't holding up intellectual debates because they aren't yet aware, or don't want to be aware of the full story. If you're interested in the real Roswell and not tabloids, skeptics and frauds, then this would be a good starting point: www.youtube.com...

I too was once intrigued by the Roswell story, until I did enough research to nail down the "core story" of Brazel's debris field and subsequent media sensation. If one is to go beyond that...in other words, to involve things like alien bodies and a crashed spaceship, one must accept the idea of a second debris site. I simply can't find enough proof of this to meet my satisfaction.

That being said, one can have it both ways. Remember, Roswell isn't the only crash retrieval story - it's just the most famous. If one examines the reports of alien bodies from Aztec, Mexico, Cape Giradeau MO, Ely NV and elsewhere, one can find a trove of intriguing tales involving crashed saucers and cover-ups and such. I suggest reading Crash: When UFOs Fall From The Sky by Kevin Randle if you want some fun reading on this topic.

a reply to: HumanOnEarth

Wow. I haven't read the entire thread yet but....

Perhaps it would be a good idea to do so after jumping in head first so you can fully understand the topics being discussed. One of the main ones is that the terms "flying disc" , of which the RAAF claimed they had captured one, was not generally deemed to mean a spaceship back in 1947.

As regards your cherry picking claims well I'll play Devil's advocate here.

Marcel was an unreliable witness because he fibbed before -- is it also impossible for a comedian to have a ufo sighting?

If Marcel didn't fib, why did he not mention any alien bodies in the late 1970s? He was the base intelligence officer. Why was the 'unbreakable' metal described as being scattered across the pasture and all the other parts he described to be very similar to a Mogul balloon?

Facts are sensationalized to sell books -- with what topic are they not?

I received a book about the recent FIFA World Cup in Brazil. It doesn't state that Germany hammered Argentina 10-0 in the final. It does say Germany beat Brazil 7-1 in the Semi-final.But guess what? They really did. Factual books tend to stick to the facts except where the evidence is almost purely anecdotal like with UFO Crashes.

Brazel reported mogul-like debris -- a scared man who was covering his tracks AFTER he'd been paid

Yes Brazel reported Mogul like debris and left it until he heard about a reward for a piece of a flying disc being handed over. Unless you think it's a complete coincidence that an alien race would build a spaceship out of rubber strips, tinfoil, tough paper and stick?

Brazel related that on June 14 he and 8-year-old son, Vernon were about 7 or 8 miles from the ranch house of the J.B. Foster ranch, which he operates, when they came upon a large area of bright wreckage made up on (sic) rubber strips, tinfoil, a rather tough paper and sticks.

Roswell Daily Record July 9th 1947

Kaughman was a fake -- yeah, we're the ones who told you that

Kevin Randle uncovered his deception IIRC.

How about discussing some of the inconvenient facts like how many of military personnel, in their 80s and 90s, admitted seeing dead aliens and/or material not from this world?

So how many was it then?

How about the carbon-nanotubes found under microscope in Roswell debris (technology not conceived until 1991)?

Really? en.wikipedia.org...

How about the impact trench/gouge that was left at the debris field?

What about it and how do you know it was made by an alien spaceship?

How about the fact that the military was surprised by the crash because they hadn't lost any of their aircraft, and why was the debris flown to Wright-Pat?

If it was a top secret Mogul project then the military officers at RAAF appear to have had no prior knowledge of the project.

Why was the area cordoned off with military checkpoints?

Was it? Again it's all anecdotal and which area was cordoned off. It seems there are a number of supposed crash sites many miles apart.

Why did dozens of people come out with corroborating recounts of handling debris with inexplicable qualities? Why were citizens threatened for talking? How could thousands of "lies" be so well corroborated?

So dozens of people handled the debris but not one tiny piece remained in their possession. How do we know citizens were threatened for talking. If you have read "Witness to Roswell" then it seems the whole of New Mexico was talking about a spaceship crash even though the military were threatening everyone.

The US Government also agreed in the 1990s that former military personnel would no longer be bound by their security oaths if they were forthcoming with information in relation to Roswell. And as we all know photographs of the crash site, the recovered craft, autopsy reports on dead alien bodies and reports on communications with the ET Rescue team from Alpha Centauri were nowhere to be found.

Finally the Morning Reports from RAAF in July 1947 show nothing out of the ordinary happening

Over the years I've found a common theme when it comes to paranormal/fringe topics. It's that skeptics aren't holding up intellectual debates because they aren't yet aware, or don't want to be aware of the full story. If you're interested in the real Roswell and not tabloids, skeptics and frauds, then this would be a good starting point

Perhaps the problem is that the sources of information you have been using are books where by your own acceptance "Facts are sensationalized to sell books"?

When it comes to Roswell the only real fact is a story about a "flying disc" being changed to a weather balloon in 1947.
So even the military don't come out of it well. But there is nothing to prove scientifically that anything ET crashed to earth in New Mexico in 1947.

Here's another documentary on Roswell from the BBC :