Roswell for Dummies. :)

a reply to: mirageman

"Flying saucer" was mostly used after Arnold spotted them (or pelicans..) in 1947. But if you study the header above the famous Roswell Daily Record article of 8th of July 1947 you can surely appreciate that the terms "Flying disc" and "Flying saucer" were used to mean exactly the same thing in those days. The header says "RAAF captures flying saucer on ranch in Roswell region" and the subheader says "No details of flying disk are revealed". Now, given that the nation was buzzing over Arnolds sightings - only a fortnight ago, and in those days that would have still been considered quite "hot" news - it is infeasible that at least the Daily Record meant anything else than to suggest that a real spaceship was caught. Of course, you could argue that the base commander was a dope and so he did not realize what it meant when you reported having caught a "flying disk" in those days. But I think that's highly infeasible. Nope, Blanchard knew allright what he'd cause when he released his communiquée.

It sure was a special time, the period between say june 20th and July 10th, near Roswell..

a reply to: ForteanOrg

You're again mistakenly applying today's definitive meaning of flying saucer/disc to 1947 Roswell. Project sign, which began in late 1947 and ended in 1949, was the first serious study into UFOs by the government/military. Up until this point, they really had no more understanding than the general public. If anything, allowing flying saucer to be published in the newspaper shows the naivety and open mindedness at the time to accept the possibility that these objects were alien craft along with all of the other explanations. Not that it was an alien craft. Once the subject was thoroughly studied however, there wasn't enough evidence to show that these objects had anything to do with alien beings. And that continues today, 65+ years later, with countless chances for this phenomena to present itself as being alien and still providing no evidence.

Combine that with the fact that Brazel apparently didn't feel this debris was much of anything on June 14th. Flying saucer/disc mania began 10 days later on June 24th after Kenneth Arnold's sighting. Newspapers then offered a $3,000 ($32,500+ today) reward for proof of a saucer. Brazel heard of the reward and told the sheriff on July 7th. His motivation was understandably 100% driven by $$$$. Marcel comes in with his comment "there was so much of it." Which is explained by the size Mogul and similar projects in comparison to typical weather balloon payloads. The construction is exactly like RADAR targets of the time, but Marcel comments on the properties of the debris. Debris which would logically be strengthened for high altitude flights and expended periods. For example, balsawood beams were said to be coated in something similar to Elmers glue to give strength. That's my quick synopsis of why this event was nothing extraordinary.

In steps Stanton Friedman who was on the UFO lecture circuit in the late 70's and was told about the Roswell story. After he interviewed Jesse Marcel in 1978, he hit the mother lode of UFO tales and ran with it. I can't say that I blame him with probably a good portion of his income now coming from UFO lectures.

a reply to: The GUT

www.huffingtonpost.com...

This one! Certainly not definative, but you know how it is.

I simply assert that whatever crashed there is not as simple as a weather balloon.

To that end I thought I would state that I am pretty sure I have read documentation that absolutely ruled out a MOGUL balloon simply on the basis that none were lost in that area at that time. There are military records that tracked those devices, afterall.

a reply to: Herolotus

aztec

It was later discovered that Hottel's story was a retelling of a retelling of a 6 January 1950 article published in the The Wyandotte Echo, a Kansas City, Kansas, legal newspaper. The Wyandotte Echo article itself was a retelling of the account of a local car-salesman and radio station advertising manager.

Ultimately the details within the FBI memo can be traced directly back to the hoax.

interesting case, and not without parallels to roswell

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

I believe I already proved beyond doubt that the general public was aware of the terms "flying saucer" or "flying disk" in june 1947 and associated these terms with "ships from outer space". Blanchard certainly must have known that his press release would be interpreted as such. So either he was a complete ignorant - or he did this on purpose.

I believe this was his (and/or his superiours) full intention. A brilliant CI move.

originally posted by: Herolotus
To that end I thought I would state that I am pretty sure I have read documentation that absolutely ruled out a MOGUL balloon simply on the basis that none were lost in that area at that time. There are military records that tracked those devices, afterall.

Nobody is 100% sure it was mogul and which flight, but the 1994 report claims that flight 4 was never recovered. If you're referring to the debate about the flight path of flight 4, the person who most vocally says now that flight 4 couldn't have reached that area himself created a flight path at one time showing it was possible. So again it's not certain but there's nothing to rule it out in spite of debates about the flight path. Since it wasn't recovered nobody can say what the flight path was, unless that's what Brazel found.

So if you got the documentation you mentioned, provide it or a link to it. If you don't, please stop making claims about alleged documentation that you don't have. There is enough confusion about this case without people spreading more unsubstantiated rumors.

www.roswellfiles.com...

The material and a "black box," described by Cavitt, was, in Moore's scientific opinion, most probably from Flight 4, a "service flight" that included a cylindrical metal sonobuoy and portions of a weather instrument housed in a box, which was unlike typical weather radiosondes which were made of cardboard. Additionally, a copy of a professional journal maintained at the time by A.P. Crary, provided to the Air Force by his widow, showed that Flight 4 was launched on June 4, 1947, but was not recovered by the NYU group. It is very probable that this TOP SECRET project balloon train (Flight 4), made up of unclassified components; came to rest some miles northwest of Roswell, NM, became shredded in the surface winds and was ultimately found by the rancher, Brazel, ten days later.

a reply to: cuckooold
Your Flash Gordon serial clip may also depict the first flying saucer crash!

Roswell is just another manufactured or not mystery to chew on

Until the great feast in the sky begins to
Chew on us

If you want to understand the influences at work on the American imagination in the years leading up to Maury Island, Kenneth Arnold's sighting and then Roswell, you must also consider the influence of Ray Palmer and the magazine that he became the editor for in 1938 Amazing Stories.



By the time the summer of 1947 rolled around, America was already obsessed with The Shaver Mystery stories, which began to be published by Ray Palmer in Amazing Stories magazine beginning in 1945 when he printed his heavily novelized version of Richard Shaver's tale, calling it I Remember Lemuria.

At one point the demand for Shaver's stories was so great that publisher Ziff-Davis had to divert paper supplies during a wartime shortage to have enough to satisfy the demand for the Shaver Mystery stories in Amazing Stories magazine.

Ray Palmer is the person that paid Kenneth Arnold $200 to go and investigate Fred Crisman after Crisman reported the Maury Island Incident, which Crisman claimed happened prior to Arnold's sighting, to Ray Palmer. How'd Crisman know Palmer? He had been contributing bull# stories to the ever deepening Shaver Mysteries.

Later, Palmer and Arnold (No, not Arnold Palmer) wrote a book together called The Coming of The Saucers.

Anyhow, I gotta keep this short but hey: Ray Palmer and all that; America was highly primed for weirdness in 1947.

Merry Christmas!

Before Roswell

I think that Roswell will be around for a while yet. It wont go away easily as it is becoming a cultural thing. Roswell has something for everyone. It has depth in that where ever and however you look at it, something about it will interest you. All of the characters involved are interesting, including the UFO researchers who dig into it. In fact, most of the characters were unusually interesting, especially if you keep following them after the time of the historically recorded incident.

My personal favorite character is Col William H Blanchard, who used his own personal leave to make a prior scheduled appointment with the Govenor's office of the State of New Mexico in solicitation of state support for the upcoming Air Force Day celebration. He kept his appointment with the Govenor's office on the 9th of July, 1947, having left his vice commander, Col Payne Jennings as commander of RAAF. Anyone with prior military service experience knows that wierd-ness happens when the commander is gone, or in the process of going. Obviously, Roswell was no exception to that rule. Trajectly, General Blanchard passed away of a massive heart attack at the age of 50 in 1966, shortly after having been promoted to four star rank and assuming the position of Vice Chief of Staff, United States Air Force. It should be noted that at the time of his passing, Roswell was still a non-event, and the creation of the Roswell Myth was 12 years in the future.

Major Jesse Marcel may yet be the source of an as yet, undiscovered Roswell gem, if it exists. There are those who say that Maj Marcel spent a bit of time (after his Roswell assignment) in the overseeing office that supervised the Mogul project. Can you imagine wading through archives and finding a document signed by both Major Marcel and also an attachment signed by someone like Professor Charles B. Moore, NYU Constant-Level Balloon Project Engineer. Talk about instant researcher fame .

Even the characters that are challenged by UFO researchers are fun to follow. Lets take the example of Glenn Dennis who teamed with Walter Haut in 1990 to establish a now, internationally known Roswell UFO Museum. I have been there and for a modest, reasonable entrance fee, I can assure you it is well worth your time and is fun for the whole family.

originally posted by: Bybyots
If you want to understand the influences at work on the American imagination in the years leading up to Maury Island, Kenneth Arnold's sighting and then Roswell, you must also consider the influence of Ray Palmer and the magazine that he became the editor for in 1938 Amazing Stories.

By the time the summer of 1947 rolled around, America was already obsessed with The Shaver Mystery stories, which began to be published by Ray Palmer in Amazing Stories magazine beginning in 1945 when he printed his heavily novelized version of Richard Shaver's tale, calling it I Remember Lemuria.

At one point the demand for Shaver's stories was so great that publisher Ziff-Davis had to divert paper supplies during a wartime shortage to have enough to satisfy the demand for the Shaver Mystery stories in Amazing Stories magazine.

Ray Palmer is the person that paid Kenneth Arnold $200 to go and investigate Fred Crisman after Crisman reported the Maury Island Incident, which Crisman claimed happened prior to Arnold's sighting, to Ray Palmer. How'd Crisman know Palmer? He had been contributing bull# stories to the ever deepening Shaver Mysteries.

Later, Palmer and Arnold (No, not Arnold Palmer) wrote a book together called The Coming of The Saucers.

Anyhow, I gotta keep this short but hey: Ray Palmer and all that; America was highly primed for weirdness in 1947.

Merry Christmas!

Before Roswell

Very astute observation of a reigning American mythology of weirdness that indeed started with the Arnold sightings of those 9 “saucers” in 47.

Then, as Peter Levenda points out, strangely, two Kennedy assassination characters actually were investigators in that incident—Fred Crisman and Guy Bannister—interesting but another loose thread.

Later Levenda connects another alien mythology to Kennedy through the creator of the Bell Helicopter Author Young, Government technologist turned philosopher with deep connections to the MIC and one of the original members of the NINE group who claims to have contacted the mysterious NINE ( aliens) of Andrija Puharich,

It turns out he was the father in law of Ruth Paine, Marina Oswald buddy who ratted Lee Harvey Oswald out to the Cops and was her “controller” in and around the time of the assassination according to some conspiracy theorists

I agree something strange entered into the soul of this country around that time and a lot of forces seemed to coalesce which range from the mysterious, the political, the occultic all the way to the scientific and UFological phenomenon.

Again a lot of loose threads connecting somewhere that no one has yet to put a handle on.

Of course Roswell is in the middle of all of this

a reply to: Bybyots

Keel on Palmer:

The Man Who Invented
Flying Saucers By John A. Keel

a reply to: Willtell

I have a mega-thread on 1947 about 90% finished. It's been that way for 3 years. Starting to doubt I'll ever finish it. I will add some to your list:

* Parsons and Hubbard do sex magic in desert.

*Crowley dies.

* The National Security Act went into effect and birthed the CIA.

*The International Monetary Fund (IMF) too.

*Project Paperclip is in full swing.

*Dead Sea Scrolls are found.

*The Jewish peoples are populating Israel.

*John D. Rockefeller Jr. donated a NYC East River site to the UN.

*Chester Carlson gets channeled information and the Xerox copier is born.

*The US Atomic Energy Commission was confirmed.

*Demolition work began in New York City to make way for the new permanent headquarters of the United Nations.

*The transistor was unveiled leading to electronic miniaturization.

*Raytheon introduced its 1st microwave oven, the Radarange.

*Bell Labs invented cellular phone technology.

*Willard Libby, American chemist, discovered Carbon-14 dating.

a reply to: The GUT

And India and Pakistan became independent from Britain

1947 was a watershed year without a doubt. Maybe the aura of the aliens filtered down to us in some of these events some might conclude.

One would have to parse the dates of these events to see any connections and I bet they are pregnant with possiiblities

Looking forward to that thread

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Wow, super chill out. I'm not claiming anything odd or unusual or fantastic.

I tried to provide a link, but It's the Guy Hottel Memo - look it up yourself.

And you know what else is possible? It could have been a Chinese Balloon bomb, or it could've been a mystery saucer running on Atlantis crystals.

Look, I don't know your background and you don't know mine, but my degree and career are in historical analysis, and basically it makes you very good at spotting BS. The MOGUL theories, all of them, do not line up in the documentation in such a way as to provide a clear path toward anything like truth or sense or accuracy. Just becuse a thing could happen doesn't mean it did happen, and there is zero evidence to support the MOGUL crash, just as there is zero evidence to support an alien crash. It's all bad data, toss it and ignore it.

In addition,if you really want to get the engine running, there is no reason to beleive the MOGUL data isn't fabricated. In the very unlikely case that an alien crash did occur, and you needed to cover it up, MOGUL makes as much sense as anything.

If you want me to prove any of that, I would like to remind you that we are debating the Roswell crash. There is no truth to find, and there was any truth to know, it won't be found here. All I was an am suggesting is that there remain no answers to the puzzle of Rowell, that soemthing unusual crashed there, and it merits further study. Sorry if that somehow offended you.

But thanks for being weird and rude on the Holidays. Tis the Season - Happy Holidays.

a reply to: aynock

Groovy - I had not come across that bit of info - thanks for the update.

I's a fact that flying saucer did not yet automatically mean "alien spacecraft" in 1947. But when did that change? Donald Keyhoe's article broke in late 1949, and his book followed a few months later, giving a huge push to the idea that "Flying Saucers are Real," and come from outer space. It didn't change overnight, though. There was still heavy public speculation that UFOs were secret military projects.

Was it the movies? Hollywood started turning science fiction spaceships into flying saucers. That's what happened in 1951 when they adapted "Who Goes There?" by John W. Campbell, Jr. into The Thing from Another World and again with "Farewell to the Master" by Harry Bates into the film The Day The Earth Stood Still.

originally posted by: CardDown
I's a fact that flying saucer did not yet automatically mean "alien spacecraft" in 1947.

I've already proven beyond reasonable doubt that the terms 'flying saucer' and 'flying disk' were both used to mean the exact same thing in 1947: a spaceship (and since we did not have these yet, it meant: "an alien spaceship"). Yes, it's true: the term "flying saucer" had only been in use a few weeks, but nevertheless: if you said "I saw a flying disk" or "I saw a flying saucer" in those days, people would imagine you'd seen an alien spaceship, saucerlike, perhaps with little green men inside (that was the common cliché in those days).

If you can prove that I'm wrong, I will gladly stand corrected, but as it is now I uphold my statement: Flying Saucer meant Flying Disk v.v. in these days.

a reply to: CardDown

I don't find it surprising that Hollywood picked up the buzz and made movies about it. That's what they do, even today, think for example of stuff like "The Interview"..

You may not know this, but 1947 brought hundreds of sightings of saucer shaped ships. Actually the Roswell crash could be seen as just one (but very famous) event in what became known as the very first modern and well documented UFO "flap".

I find one of them particularly amusing, as it combines three UFOlore issues in one sighting: we have a MOGUL communications officer who sees a disk himself - and oh my, it was near Holloman Army Air Field too - the landing spot for big nosed aliens, remember?

Late Aug. 1947; Alamogordo [Holloman] Army Air Field, New Mexico; AMC Watson Labs Project MOGUL communications officer Lt. H. G. Markley. While watching 2 balloons with radar reflector to the SE in 10x binoculars Markley saw traveling at "unprecedented rate of speed" a round white object in horizontal light S to N several thousand feet over the tops of Sacramento Mtns.

In July 1947 some photo's were taken of a disk that looked a lot like Arnolds 'crescent' type of disk, the Rhodes photo's. So, maybe Arnold did not see pelicans after all..

BTW: I still have a copy of TDTESS - and of course its very, very dated, but still a pleasure for me to see

a reply to: ForteanOrg
We are mostly in agreement, it's just a matter of a few degrees. We're dealing with some kind of chicken/egg feedback loop. Belief in life on other worlds and even visits in vehicles goes way back, before Fort even an idea promoted by the Theosophists, and passed into fantasy and science fiction. Buck Rogers brought the idea into the mainstream. People were more likely to believe in men on other worlds than they were in germs.

When the saucers came along, some folks immediately suggested they could be like something out of War of the Worlds, some serious, others in jest. But the most widely held notion that it was superior terran tech, either US or Soviet. Even in the mid-fifites saucer mavens were arguing origin theories, when the secret weapon notion came to be termed the "Earth theory." The first saucer film in 1950 by Mikel Conrad used that idea.

Today the flying saucer ET association is so firmly established that it's hard to think it was ever otherwise.