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What Is Sin?

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posted on Dec, 1 2014 @ 08:09 PM
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originally posted by: Seede
As far as burning forever. We make that decision ourselves, not God. Once again, God did not make you. Your parents made you with their own free choice. Why blame God for what your parents did? God might have known because of His foreknowledge but He most certainly is not to blame for our actions.


Hell isn't actually a place of everlasting torment. That is not what the Bible actually says, though it is easy to understand how certain verses on the subject have been misconstrued over the centuries and became doctrine. The Bible is clear that God utterly destroys his enemies. Utterly. The first death people experience is the physical death. But the Bible refers to a second death as well. This second death is that of your soul. The second death happens when you're cast into the crucible of Hell. It's only eternal and everlasting in the sense that it's a permanent death. Not in the sense that it's continual torment. It's permanent separation from God because you were judged and found wanting. The gift of the spirit is eternal life and the punishment for sin is death.

Here is an extensive Bible study backing it up: Hell Know!

As for the "you send yourself to hell" argument...

Let's see how screwed up it actually is.

Imagine if you will a courtroom scene where a man is on trial for murder. He claims not guilty. His defense claims that the alleged murder victim's death was the result of a suicide. As evidence of this, they offer up surveillance footage of the scene of the crime. The footage shows our defendant aiming a gun at the victim's head and demanding his wallet and any other valuables. He makes it clear that if he chooses not to comply, he will be shot and killed. Still, the victim stands his ground, and refuses to give into the demands. So, our defendant shoots and kills him. It is a cut and dry case of suicide. The alleged victim was given a clear choice. The victim had the free will to either obey the defendant and live, or disobey and die. He chose to disobey. The defendant did not murder the alleged victim, the alleged victim chose to die.

Here is that concept animated.
edit on 12-1-2014 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 1 2014 @ 08:16 PM
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a reply to: WakeUpBeer

thanks for clarifying. let me rephrase: your lazy eye displeases god, accept jesus as your master or you will be erased from existence via incineration. youre right it sounds so much better that way...

/sarcasm
edit on 1-12-2014 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 1 2014 @ 08:29 PM
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a reply to: TzarChasm

I wonder if Christians want it to be a place of everlasting fiery torture. A lot of them give me the vibe that they think that's exactly what atheists deserve.
edit on 12-1-2014 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 1 2014 @ 08:37 PM
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a reply to: TzarChasm

First there is no hell, so there is no burning forever for sinners.
Just non-existence for those that refuse to acknowledge God's sovereignty over his planet and creation which includes us.
Secondly genetic imperfection because of sin varies from person to person and God never holds it against anybody, he knows we inherited sin and we had no choice in the fact that it degrades us, especially with age.



posted on Dec, 1 2014 @ 09:09 PM
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a reply to: WakeUpBeer


Yes, he does. He hardened Pharaoh's heart against him when Pharaoh was considering letting God's chosen people go. He hardened his heart and then he punished all of Egypt for it. God also sends strong delusions on those who choose not to believe in him. The strong delusion is so that they may believe lies. In my mind this is more free will manipulation. Deluding people so they believe lies would only make it harder for them to find their way to him. Oh and then he destroys their soul in hell because of it.

You have misunderstood the gift of choice.

Rom_9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Exo_7:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go. Exo_8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exo_8:19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

There are more scriptures on this subject but I chose this to show you my premise. The Pharaoh of Egypt had freedom of choice and chose to disobey Moses and his own magicians. Not once but well over ten times. Even under indisputable proof the Pharaoh denied Moses' God by choice. Pharaoh hardened his own heart by choice and then by action of his choice. God did not interfere with Pharaohs freedom of choice. God allowed Pharaoh to act upon that choice and then God intervened after the choice became an act.

Rom_1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

After the choice was made by the Pharaohs mind and it became a deed of the flesh with no repenting action from the Pharaoh is when God gave him over as a reprobate. The OT declares this as hardened. The Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God gave him up as lost. But that is not to say that God did not allow him the very same freedom of choice that He allows all life. To believe otherwise would be to say that God plays favorites before choice becomes an act. That would be the same as mind control and that is simply not theologically true.

To prove this is to see that if God had manipulated the Pharaohs mind then the deeds of the flesh would not have happened. Because the plagues did occur ten times with warnings of repenting given ten times proves that God was long suffering to a reprobate minded man. So God only intervened after the fact and not before the fact. There is always a choice or decision of the mind before an act because the two are separate happenings. The decision or choice is made by the spirit and the the spirit directs the flesh to act. A choice by the spirit can be changed whereas the act of flesh cannot be changed. God gave Pharaoh well over ten times to change his choice before Pharaoh acted. Pharaoh gave himself over to a reprobate mind and then acted upon that choice.

As far as punishing all of Egypt. All of Egypt suffered the ten plagues and were well aware of the proclamation set down by the God of Moses. Their choice was to mark their door posts with the blood of redemption which some did and others did not. All had a choice in the matter just as well as the house of Pharaoh had the same choice. Some of Pharaohs house also believed as well as most did not believe. The choice was given to all. It was not all babies that died but it was the first born of each house which were mostly adults. A great many Egyptians did choose to use the mark of blood as well as there were also many Hebrews who had intermarried with Egyptians.

The soul of a person is the flesh (body). The souls of all people perish back to their earthly source. The spirit survives because the spirit is the celestial life of a person. It is the spirit that is judged because the spirit controls the flesh. The spirit is not punished forever in hell but is punished in the ethereal fire after hell is cast into the celestial fire. There is some debate as to consciousness or unconsciousness in the end of judgment.



posted on Dec, 1 2014 @ 09:18 PM
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originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: TzarChasm

First there is no hell, so there is no burning forever for sinners.
Just non-existence for those that refuse to acknowledge God's sovereignty over his planet and creation which includes us.
Secondly genetic imperfection because of sin varies from person to person and God never holds it against anybody, he knows we inherited sin and we had no choice in the fact that it degrades us, especially with age.


I take issue with that perspective. it implies perfection is synonymous with vanity.



posted on Dec, 1 2014 @ 09:49 PM
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a reply to: TzarChasm

Nah, if billions of people had there genetic code redone to a perfect state you would still have an amazing variety of looks, and personal taste would dedicate you would like some like some looks more than others. But humans in general would be better looking and perfectly healthy. Healthy people actually look better those that aren't generally anyways.

Plus what sin did in genetic terms is after around 21 to 28 years old brand new cells are replaced with new genetically older cells, and every 7 years the process repeats itself to the next level, making a person age. Inherited sin is the cause of this, scientists can't figure out why we actually grow old and die, theoretically the new cells should be genetically as good as the old ones, but they aren't.



posted on Dec, 1 2014 @ 10:01 PM
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a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Is sin also responsible for the aging and death of all life on planet earth, because all life on our planet ages and dies, or dies of some cause, eventually?
edit on 1-12-2014 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 1 2014 @ 11:01 PM
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originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: TzarChasm

Nah, if billions of people had there genetic code redone to a perfect state you would still have an amazing variety of looks, and personal taste would dedicate you would like some like some looks more than others. But humans in general would be better looking and perfectly healthy. Healthy people actually look better those that aren't generally anyways.

Plus what sin did in genetic terms is after around 21 to 28 years old brand new cells are replaced with new genetically older cells, and every 7 years the process repeats itself to the next level, making a person age. Inherited sin is the cause of this, scientists can't figure out why we actually grow old and die, theoretically the new cells should be genetically as good as the old ones, but they aren't.



i feel the inevitable degradation of matter is a valuable lesson in balance. perfection feels like a one sided pendulum. or a CD stuck on one second in one track. it is literally that game over moment for all of eternity and that just doesn't seem right anymore than holding one last election to end all elections. as the universe and the planet and the decades change, so should we. to stop changing is to stop growing and we are never done growing. it plays right into that vanity thing, believing there is no room for improvment or to have that room is a sign of failure or weakness. there is nothing wrong with having room to better yourself.
edit on 1-12-2014 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)

edit on 1-12-2014 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 11:52 AM
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a reply to: WakeUpBeer


The first death people experience is the physical death. But the Bible refers to a second death as well. This second death is that of your soul. The second death happens when you're cast into the crucible of Hell. It's only eternal and everlasting in the sense that it's a permanent death. Not in the sense that it's continual torment. It's permanent separation from God because you were judged and found wanting. The gift of the spirit is eternal life and the punishment for sin is death.

Moses teaches that the soul is the earthly body of flesh. Man is a soul and does not have a soul. Man has a spirit which is housed by the soul. As the soul dies the spirit survives the death of the soul. It is the spirit that is judged as it is responsible for all actions of the soul.

The spirit is judged as a conscious entity and then is either accepted or rejected by God's standards. If accepted it enjoys the kingdom of heaven and if rejected it is not allowed as a celestial entity but is interred in Sheol (hell). If rejected it then remains in the earth as a conscious entity till the day of punishment of the spirit. At the day of punishment hell is then cast into the ethereal fire of eternity. In the last day judgment the spirits in hell are not judged again because they have already been judged. The last day judgment is reserved for those who were alive at the end of the world. This last gathering of all the remainder of humans are then judged at the final White Throne Judgment.

No one actually knows exactly the demise of the spirit in the lake of fire.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

The key word "worm" is debatable. Some will believe that this is the identification of the spirit which has lost consciousness forever. That rejected spirit is now annihilated even though its identification remains as an unconscious entity. This would be meant as the second death. Most scholars will believe that the rejected spirit is not tortured forever with the fire of our understanding. The ethereal celestial fire is not a consuming fire such as we understand fire to be. There are other interpretations of the same incident so it is a matter of what you may want to believe but the entirety of the matter is that the rejected spirit is separated from celestial eternal life.

The entire question remains as to whether the spirit can actually die in the sense of our understanding. The spirit is celestial substance. Whatever that could mean. Some understand the spirit as a portion from God who is all Spirit. God gives each person a portion of His spirit of life upon their birth. If that portion can die then can God die in like manner being that it is a portion of Him? If a portion of God can die can all of God die? This leads to much debating among various biblical scholars but we must remember that all of this discussion is theology and nothing more.



posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 12:05 PM
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a reply to: Seede

very interesting questions...thanks!

although it makes me wonder...why on the day of rapture does he not just kill every sinner he plans on destroying anyway? instead of everyone going up to heaven, just kill all the firstborns, firstborns being sinners. being omniscient he would know all of that ahead of time. seems like he would avoid of a lot of unpleasant business doing it that way. other than the obvious unpleasant business of killing at all. but hey, if he can do firstborns...
edit on 2-12-2014 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-12-2014 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 02:03 PM
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a reply to: leeda

1 Peter 4:1 whoever suffers in the body is done with sin.
That just means that you are are suffering on account of your forsaking the ways of the world, that if you acted like the world, they would not persecute you.

You are not suffering because of sin but because of your refutation of sin.


edit on 2-12-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 03:52 PM
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what is sin? oh lord dont hurt me, dont hurt me, no more...

I don't know why you're not there
I do my best but you don't care
So what is right and what is wrong?

what is sin...
edit on 2-12-2014 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 08:15 PM
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Thanks for your lengthy thought out response to my post.

These are my favorite to read and ponder honestly.

Some of the things I'd like to address (emphasis added):


originally posted by: Seede
Rom_9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Exo_7:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go. Exo_8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exo_8:19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

There are more scriptures on this subject but I chose this to show you my premise. The Pharaoh of Egypt had freedom of choice and chose to disobey Moses and his own magicians. Not once but well over ten times. Even under indisputable proof the Pharaoh denied Moses' God by choice. Pharaoh hardened his own heart by choice and then by action of his choice. God did not interfere with Pharaohs freedom of choice. God allowed Pharaoh to act upon that choice and then God intervened after the choice became an act.

It seems to me what you are saying is that it was Pharaoh, who hardened his own heart against God. It was not God who hardened Pharaoh's heart against him. However I disagree. If we go back a few chapters in Exodus, we see that it was indeed God who hardened Pharaoh's heart against him.

And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
Exodus 4:21

Here we have God telling Moses why he is going to have a difficult time convincing the Pharaoh to release his chosen people. "I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go." You can make the case that Pharaoh already had a grudge against the Lord, sure. But what's the meaning of hardening his heart? God wanted Pharaoh to deny the request of Moses. He said so in the above verse. Why not soften his heart?



Rom_1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

After the choice was made by the Pharaohs mind and it became a deed of the flesh with no repenting action from the Pharaoh is when God gave him over as a reprobate. The OT declares this as hardened. The Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God gave him up as lost. But that is not to say that God did not allow him the very same freedom of choice that He allows all life. To believe otherwise would be to say that God plays favorites before choice becomes an act. That would be the same as mind control and that is simply not theologically true.

As I have shown, Exodus 4:21 states that God hardened Pharaoh's heart "that he shall not let the people go". In other words he hardened his heart before the choices were presented to him. Sure, Pharaoh still had free will of choice but you have to admit that hardening his heart before hand could easily be considered manipulation of that free will. Obviously a reprobate mind is going to be more likely to choose actions against the Lord than for him.

Broadening the subject of God playing favorites, I would argue that's exactly what he does. As proof I use the story at hand (the Exodus). The story of God's chosen people. Out of all the inhabitants of the world at this time, he chooses a small group of humans to reveal himself to. Then he proceeds to send them on a genocidal war path and commands them to kill other people for this and that petty (especially petty if you're a creator being) reason.



To prove this is to see that if God had manipulated the Pharaohs mind then the deeds of the flesh would not have happened. Because the plagues did occur ten times with warnings of repenting given ten times proves that God was long suffering to a reprobate minded man. So God only intervened after the fact and not before the fact. There is always a choice or decision of the mind before an act because the two are separate happenings. The decision or choice is made by the spirit and the the spirit directs the flesh to act. A choice by the spirit can be changed whereas the act of flesh cannot be changed. God gave Pharaoh well over ten times to change his choice before Pharaoh acted. Pharaoh gave himself over to a reprobate mind and then acted upon that choice.

And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
Exodus 4:21



posted on Dec, 3 2014 @ 01:27 PM
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a reply to: WakeUpBeer


Broadening the subject of God playing favorites, I would argue that's exactly what he does. As proof I use the story at hand (the Exodus). The story of God's chosen people. Out of all the inhabitants of the world at this time, he chooses a small group of humans to reveal himself to. Then he proceeds to send them on a genocidal war path and commands them to kill other people for this and that petty (especially petty if you're a creator being) reason.

Years ago I thought exactly the same as you have just posted. God only favors with foreknowledge. Torah Anthology teaches that we must first look at what the civilization was at the time that God dealt with this situation. Almost all of mankind were barbaric and non deserving of any sort of mercy whatsoever. This include the Hebrews. They were so barbaric that they had even become blood drinkers. They were as bad a lot as any could be and it was for this very same reason that Moses disallowed personal sacrifices. All sacrifice must therefore be performed by the Levite's and the blood destroyed upon the brazen alter. It took years to breed this out of them.

When God presented Himself to the known tribes, it is written in Anthology that only the Hebrews would accept His covenant. It was not that they were chosen without merit. The merit being that they all agreed to accept this God of Moses. You must remember that polytheism was very common among almost all of the known civilizations at this time and if it had not been for the Levitical tribe these Hebrews would also have gone the same way. In fact even as Moses was receiving the covenant of commands the people had built themselves a golden gold calf and were whooping it up before Moses came down from talking to God. So as you can see it was not favoritism but of necessity that God chose this bunch to deal with. Not that somehow they were better people who deserved more consideration than the others but that this raggy bunch of misfits were a foot in the door (so to speak).

Yes, you are right. God fought fire with fire. In order for Moses to whip them into shape they must survive. They must kill in order to survive or be erased from the face of this earth. You can see this very same thing today. Be conditioned to kill or be killed. It's world wide even as we speak. I also hate to see killing but that is and always will be the tool of survival or until a 1st class civilization can be developed. If you compare the history of that era to this era you will see that nothing has changed in that respect. I don't look at it as being petty on God's part. I do believe it was the means of bringing the people back out of degradation. It was a start and it's still ongoing.

As far as hardening the heart was concerned, my understanding is that when your heart is troubled or heavy it is hardened. Death can give a heavy or sorrowful heart as well as perhaps a divorce or many other such matters. In this case it was anger and hatred and God gave the Pharaoh this anger or heavy heart by insisting that Pharaoh release the cheap labor that he enjoyed. In that respect then, yes, God did pile more fuel on the fire (so to speak). But the Pharaoh was stewing long before this incident and was to blame for his own choice of hatred.

A typical example is death simply because that is the most common. A man can hate God with all of his being and then lose his wife that has died. Actually God killed his wife just as God will kill all life. Now this man hardened his heart before his wife died with hatred and disbelief but God was also the cause and effect of this wife dying.



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