Identity issues and their implications for broader society.

I'm sure we are all familiar with the trans-gender concept, a person is born one gender but "feels" like a different gender. While I support anyone's right to live how they feel is best as long as they don't hurt others, I question what it means to "feel" like a certain gender.

There is the obvious idea that men play with cars and trains, like to be involved in rough physical activity, are sexually attracted to females, and desired to protect and provide.

The other side is that being a woman means playing with barbies, being concerned with one's beauty, are attracted to men, and desire to create a home and raise children.

So, if you were born with a penis, but want to play with barbies, are more emotional, etc that means you "feel" like a woman.

This is where I detect some contradictions. Aren't we told that gender is just a biological designation, and it means nothing past your genitals and a few odds-and-ends on the inside? If that's the case, then how are people "feeling" like men or women? I'm sure there are a few people who might be offended by my description above of what it means to "feel" like a women, but this is the same concept used by trans-gender people when explaining why they want to physically change into a different gender. I've watched and read many interviews with trans-gender individuals, and I've frequently heard some variation of "while my friends were playing with tonka trucks I was playing with barbies"

I hope I'm communicating this properly, but basically my point is the contradictions present in the way the LBGT community talks about gender. On one hand they say it's just your genitals and we shouldn't expect men and women to behave differently or fill different roles, yet on the transgender side they tell is that gender is NOT just your genitals, but also the way you feel and act which contradicts the previous statement.

Now that's not the actual topic of this thread, that was just something to show where I'm going with the race issue.

Are we going to see people who come out as being "trans-race" in the sense that they are born one race but feel like another? Are we going to find it acceptable for black people to undergo treatment to look white, or white people to undergo treatment to look black in order for their looks to match their feelings?

We are told to accept the idea that it's not acceptable to question how someone feels, in the sense that if someone says they feel like a woman, but were born a man, we are supposed to accept it and not question. If a white person wanted to get surgery done to more closely match the appearance of a black person, because they claim they feel black and want their looks to match their feelings, are we going to accept that? Why or why not?

Some may ask "well what does it really mean to feel black/white/asian/whatever" which is a valid question. But what does it actually mean to feel like a woman or a man?

Saying "I'm a woman because I like barbies and make-up" doesn't really sound any less ridiculous to me than someone saying "I'm black because I listen to rap music and like fried chicken" They are both just cultural stereotypes, yet cultural stereotypes are what trans people use to explain their mistaken gender, so why isn't it OK to use cultural stereotypes for a person to explain their mistaken race?

If a white person claimed they feel like a black person, I'm sure the chorus would spring up about how they have no idea what it's like to feel like a black person.

Yet if a man claimed they felt like a woman, where is the chorus to speak up and say how they have no idea what it's like to feel like a woman?

To be clear I'm not suggesting any way of doing anything is right. I'm bringing up what appears to be a big contradiction in the "acceptance movement" I guess you could call it. I'd like to explore those ideas a bit deeper, and I'd like to humbly ask that if you want to participate in this thread that you:

A. actually read my post fully and try to understand the overall idea instead of just attacking specific sentences.
B. try to keep the discussion civil and not use this thread as an excuse to vent your hatred of any group, people, or ideas.

My thanks in advance as I had a recent thread devolve into unproductive garbage slinging which I stopped participating in, and I'd like to avoid that happening here.

a reply to: James1982

You are confusing gender and sex. Genitalia is sex related, not necessarily "gender" related.

As to trans-race, there is a movie coming out about a "white" Jewish girl who thought she was white her entire life until her college recommended her to a black club after seeing her picture. She asked her mom who told her that her father was actually a black man ... and now the girl who grew up identifying as white self-identifies as being black.

But, you are right, and the PC police are often times caught in logic traps. They escape these traps by playing the race card. It sounds like a weird game, too bad it's real life.

a reply to: tavi45

Who exactly do you think you are suggesting someone leave the site? I detected no anger in the OP's post what so ever.
In fact I found it rather interesting as he brought up some valid points in how we as a society view people and their identities.

i think the idea of trance race will come in time, it might sound like a joke now, but in who knows, even just 10 years, it will become normal and accepted.
I mean if all you need to do is say/think you feel like someone/something then nothing is stopping me from saying i feel black, or Chinese or whatever.
It might sound stupid now, but give it time, we will become a mishmash of different things, some dude from Poland will be a black chinese speaking muslim transexualized whoknowswhat.
I'm not saying this to degrade anyone, mind you, it's just a logical consequence of accepting that people can be anything they feel they are on the inside.

originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: James1982

With the best of intentions I suggest you leave the site. It seems to just be making you angrier at the world.

Your anger at how you were treated in the PC thread is now directed at the LGBT community. I'm assuming you were inspired to create this thread by a very recent one that was created.

I participated in your earlier rant thread with perfectly good intentions and great empathy so I hope you don't take this as an attack. You just seem to be getting affected negatively by this website.

No offense taken at all, and I actually wasn't referring to the PC thread (although I don't remember being treated badly there?) I was referring to the rant thread.

I appreciate your concern but I think your rage-meter might be a bit off!

originally posted by: IShotMyLastMuse
I mean if all you need to do is say/think you feel like someone/something then nothing is stopping me from saying i feel black, or Chinese or whatever.

Exactly!

I'm trying to think of possible outcomes for that type of situation, any ideas? Maybe it's the same generational redundancy thing where you become less relevant to the world as you age, it seems so mind boggling to think of what society will be like in 50 years.

originally posted by: doompornjunkie
a reply to: tavi45

Who exactly do you think you are suggesting someone leave the site? I detected no anger in the OP's post what so ever.
In fact I found it rather interesting as he brought up some valid points in how we as a society view people and their identities.

I think when people get used to seeing nothing but attacks, they tend to interpret everything as an attack. There could also be something said for the pervasive mentality that when someone disagrees with you that means they are attacking you. I can't be sure as he appears to pay much more attention to me than I do him.

Interesting thread.

S & F.

Can't argue with the OP really, there isn't a more rational reason for wanting to change sex than there is for wanting to change race (though I'm sure the PC brigade will point out that "there's no such thing as race").

I've always wanted to be black and I work with Africans now so * it, if you can't beat em...

Where's my surgeon's phone number?

a reply to: James1982

My concern here is that you are clearly parodying an intro thread by a new member posted these last 24 hours or so, and that in itself is pretty poor form and unwelcoming.

a reply to: James1982

I suppose we could try to look at it from the perspective of Saṃsāra

In short:

the repeating cycle of birth, life and death (reincarnation) as well as one's actions and consequences in the past, present, and future in Hinduism, Buddhism, Bon, Jainism, Taoism, and Sikhism.

According to the view of these religions, a person's current life is only one of many—stretching back before birth into past existences and reaching forward beyond death into future incarnations.

In popular use, Saṃsāra may refer to the world (in the sense of the various worldly activities which occupy ordinary, ignorant human beings), the various sufferings thereof; or (mistakenly) the unsettled and agitated mind through which reality is perceived.

In short, our souls have been reincarnated onto this plane of existence to learn something...not only about the mysteries of the world around us, but also the mysteries of the nature of our true selves.

If there is any validity to the cycle of rebirth, it would stand to reason that there may be a lifetime in which a soul finds him or herself in a body that it does not quite "identify with". Whether it be the sex one is assigned at birth, or the color of ones skin, hair or eyes, or even as far as not feeling like one belongs in the time period or cultural lands of ones birth.

In short, being reincarnated is pretty hit or miss...in fact, the idea of Saṃsāra goes on to state that:

In Hinduism, it is avidya, or ignorance, of one's true self that leads to ego-consciousness of the body and the phenomenal world. This grounds one in kāma (desire) and the perpetual chain of karma and reincarnation. Through egotism and desire one creates the causes for future becoming. The state of illusion that gives rise to this is known as Maya.

Is it possible that Trangender and Transracial (as well as other issues along this vein) arise due to a karmic rebirth in this cycle as we struggle under the yolk of our own cosmic maturation into fully realized and learned beings?

a reply to: James1982

At the risk of sounding like an old fart or something, i think the possible outcomes will be depressing.
i love diversity, that's the main reason i travel so much, and i don't want to live in a society where everyone is a collage of things they like, when it comes to genders/sex i don't really care, that happens in your bedroom, so it's not really my business, but the whole trans race/culture thing is different. i can just imagine the SJW movement rushing in and telling me how to respect everyone's oversensitive feelings.
and what's even worse is the idea that people will start looking like those horrible ganguro girls. bleah.
At some point doesn't it all become a desperate cry for attention?

originally posted by: skalla
a reply to: James1982

My concern here is that you are clearly parodying an intro thread by a new member posted these last 24 hours or so, and that in itself is pretty poor form and unwelcoming.

In hindsight you're correct that might have been in bad taste, over my time here I realized boring thread titles don't get much response and I'm new at the flashy headline tactic. I saw his post on the "recent" threads list but aside from giving me a thread title there was no implied connection/nothing directed at him

I'll see if I can edit the title and if not I'll message a mod, as I can totally understand how that could come off the wrong way.

EDIT: Caught it in time and changed the title, I appreciate you bringing that up as honestly I didn't even give it a second thought when titling the thread.

a reply to: James1982

It's just my take on things, but i appreciate that you have thought about what i've said

originally posted by: GENERAL EYES
a reply to: James1982

I suppose we could try to look at it from the perspective of Saṃsāra

In short:

the repeating cycle of birth, life and death (reincarnation) as well as one's actions and consequences in the past, present, and future in Hinduism, Buddhism, Bon, Jainism, Taoism, and Sikhism.

According to the view of these religions, a person's current life is only one of many—stretching back before birth into past existences and reaching forward beyond death into future incarnations.

In popular use, Saṃsāra may refer to the world (in the sense of the various worldly activities which occupy ordinary, ignorant human beings), the various sufferings thereof; or (mistakenly) the unsettled and agitated mind through which reality is perceived.

In short, our souls have been reincarnated onto this plane of existence to learn something...not only about the mysteries of the world around us, but also the mysteries of the nature of our true selves.

If there is any validity to the cycle of rebirth, it would stand to reason that there may be a lifetime in which a soul finds him or herself in a body that it does not quite "identify with". Whether it be the sex one is assigned at birth, or the color of ones skin, hair or eyes, or even as far as not feeling like one belongs in the time period or cultural lands of ones birth.

In short, being reincarnated is pretty hit or miss...in fact, the idea of Saṃsāra goes on to state that:

In Hinduism, it is avidya, or ignorance, of one's true self that leads to ego-consciousness of the body and the phenomenal world. This grounds one in kāma (desire) and the perpetual chain of karma and reincarnation. Through egotism and desire one creates the causes for future becoming. The state of illusion that gives rise to this is known as Maya.

Is it possible that Trangender and Transracial (as well as other issues along this vein) arise due to a karmic rebirth in this cycle as we struggle under the yolk of our own cosmic maturation into fully realized and learned beings?

Very insightful! That would make a lot of sense as far as mixed up hosts/spirits are concerned. While I'm not sure how I feel about reincarnation due to the logistical questions that arise the idea that there is some sort of discord between our spirit and our bodes does resonate with me as being true, and possibly responsible for the people who feel "out of place"

Do you think the instances of people feeling this way are actually increasing, or do you think that as society gets more accepting in general that people just feel free to express what they have always felt? If instances of this type of thing are actually increasing, that seems a little spooky if one believes in reincarnation as it would seem to suggest something has gone haywire with the "reincarnation machine" "Oops, another one in the wrong body, what is that three this week?" I kid, but I hope you get what I mean. I guess the mismatch of body/soul could be viewed as a simple mistake or as a mechanism to encourage further growth in the individual, if enduring struggle and evolving is the goal of repeated incarnations.

I'll have to think about it a bit more as thinking of the subject in that light opens a lot of possibilities to consider.

a reply to: James1982

sorry james in advance for any flaming you might get for posting your thoughts .

same thing happen to me for asking a question about "transgender " in an intro thread .


regarding your OP , i am curious to know how a "transgender " makes the transition . is it really something that happens from birth ? or is it something stemming from a traumatic incident. i am curious , maybe a "transgender" can give us some inn-site .

thanks for the thread

a reply to: James1982

I'll admit the mechanics of what defines one's future reincarnation is a mystery to me as well....I have enough troubles meditating and transcending my own difficulties, I don't know if I would be able to completely understand another persons re-birth karma to the point I could give a definitive assessment of how or why the cards are dealt the way they are.

This life thing sure is interesting....rough at times....I believe we should always strive to understand and empathize with our fellow beings on this plane of existence while we are here. Thanks for bringing up this avenue of discussion in a courteous way.

originally posted by: IShotMyLastMuse
a reply to: James1982

At the risk of sounding like an old fart or something, i think the possible outcomes will be depressing.
i love diversity, that's the main reason i travel so much, and i don't want to live in a society where everyone is a collage of things they like, when it comes to genders/sex i don't really care, that happens in your bedroom, so it's not really my business, but the whole trans race/culture thing is different. i can just imagine the SJW movement rushing in and telling me how to respect everyone's oversensitive feelings.
and what's even worse is the idea that people will start looking like those horrible ganguro girls. bleah.
At some point doesn't it all become a desperate cry for attention?

I could definitely see it as being depressing. Not because I dislike seeing people who break from the "norm" but because at a deeper level I think the reason a lot of people have negative feelings towards trans-gender people, or the whole movement of "be whatever you want" is because it takes away a feeling of reality, where nothing seems concrete anymore, nothing is predictable, nothing is comfortable.

It's much more difficult to "figure out" the world when the world keeps changing and evolving into ever more complex things, and it seems figuring out the world is what us humans spend a lot of time doing. Something that makes that more difficult will naturally be met with negativity, and while the world has always been changing it's never been on the level as it is today, or at least that's the way it seems.

I'm aware that in India (I believe) they have what is considered a third gender which is similar to our ideas of transgender in the west. They live openly and have for quite some time but are still marginalized by society at large. So the idea of not being quite male or female, or of being in the wrong body isn't new but the specific labeling definite is.

Maybe that's more of the disconnect that I see, is that we keep adding more and more groups and more and more labels. Instead of uniting everyone, we are further dividing ourselves into even smaller subsections of the human race. What is the difference between someone who is a woman, but likes football and cars, and someone who is a woman, but says they are actually a man because they like football and cars?

We are all different, each one of us have an identity and a sexuality that doesn't exactly match anyone else on earth. As time goes on are we going to further divide ourselves into even smaller groups where there are 7 billion different genders, and 7 billion different sexualities, one for each individual?

Anytime you identify with a group you are sacrificing some of your own individuality, so I understand the issue of putting people into groups that they don't completely identify with, but at the same time when you break people up into smaller more personalized groups you sacrifice our togetherness as humans. I feel both are very dangerous if taken to the extreme as I believe we need both a strong sense of individuality and togetherness. If you focus so much on how different you are from others, and them to you, you can loose that connection which brings us together.

Some sort of middle-ground would seem to be the best way of approaching thing, but what is that middle ground? Is the easy two party system of only male or female fit as a healthy middle ground? Does having a million different groups fit? I'm not sure but I think it's interesting to think about.

a reply to: James1982

I suppose that the obvious start to this is to listen to someone who is transgendered and find out in detail how they would describe these feelings.

You know, i'm not sure i ever have.

I've heard it stated how such a person has felt out of place in their bodies, but while i may have had the opportunity to find out more, i feel a tad ignorant in saying that i've not taken such an opportunity.

Thing is though that if someone feels strongly enough that they wish to start that arduous process with all the stigma that some others attach to it, i'm willing to accept they they really must have a bloody good reason for it. For the record too, i have heard women saying to a pre male to female transgenderee (i had no idea how to express that succinctly) that they have no idea what a woman feels like and will never be one properly. Their target would no doubt have found that pretty difficult to hear, though not unexpected.

But i'm definitely going to make sure i take my next chance to find out. I expect it's more than just an affinity with blue over pink, or trains over barbie.

And i'd hate to look at my bits and pieces and feel that they were all "wrong" and that i wanted nowt to do with them. I have a name for mine and everything, we're very close.

ETA: i've possibly got more to say on the OP, but i've just stashed the rizla safely away so one thing at a time!