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QUESTION to ALL Atheists!

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posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 01:29 PM
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a reply to: windword


You are arguing that intellect, in the way of mental projections of symbolism, proves the existence of the biblical God. It does not.


but somehow god's intellect does not prove the existence of his own creator.

cognitive dissonance knows no limits.
edit on 22-11-2014 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 01:52 PM
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a reply to: windword




" As a non-believer I find your posts, justifying the existence of the biblical God to the atheists participating here, to be arrogant, pseudo-intellectual nonsense.


Pesudo-intellectual? Its fake intelligence oh I am sorry I didn't know you could fake intelligence. lol...arrogant? I am arrogant because I believe that an omnipotent being can reveal himself to lower beings?




You are arguing that intellect, in the way of mental projections of symbolism, proves the existence of the biblical God


Strawman cause thats not the argument I posed in anyway. My argument had nothing to do with proving the existence of God, but rather that humans had an intelligent designer.




Furthermore, the biblical Old Testament God is an outdated, irrelevant and immoral evil bastard, whose methodology has been driven out of these here parts!


Um on what objective basis do you call him immoral? As an atheist you don't have one so your argument is null and void cause it is really just your opinion on situation.




Christians have replaced the OT god with a kinder, gentler Jesus, who in the end destroys the earth and is just as bloody rotten as the Old Testament God anyway. So all is lost with the immoral, blood thirsty God of the Bible, as far as humanity concerned.


Thats not true at all. Jesus is the OT God in the flesh. We haven't replaced anything. The fact that you think we did shows that you have never honestly attempted to understand what Christians believe.



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 02:03 PM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
As an atheist you don't have one so your argument is null and void cause it is really just your opinion on situation.


That is Bullsh*t. There is no difference between an Atheist and anyone else in their ability to have a moral code. The only difference is that you derive yours from a book while others derive theirs from life experiences and/or other sources.



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 02:20 PM
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a reply to: TzarChasm




the logic that leads you to believe in a creator is the same logic that leads me to believe he must also have a creator


Lol no its not the same at all.....you are just being stubborn...I just told you I don't believe humans need a creator because they are imperfect and mortal. I believe humans need an intelligent creator because the body carries a semiotic dimension independent of the mind of humans. Human bodies have an attribute that implies intelligence behind its creation....That answers premise 2 of my argument for humans. You have yet to answer premise 2 for God. This argument has nothing to do with proving God's existence. I am only proving that humans had an intelligent designer based on specific attributes of the body. In no way have you shown that attributes of God require him to have a creator.




unending time is the same as no time at all. was not aware of that.


The theological definition of Eternity is a state to which time has no application; timelessness.(Absence of Time)

Eternity relates to time and nonphysical dimensions. Infinity relates to a number and physical dimensions. Eternity has an infinite number of years/days/ect because eternity exist outside of the 4th dimension and absent of its effects.





well, i eagerly await your proof. oh. wait. once again, all we have is your opinion. so sorry.


Um not my opinion matter came into existence after the first planck time. Matter and energy are interchangeable. Everything is made of energy. Matter is just a form of energy, but we know that all matter(all energy) came into existence after the first planck time. That isn't my opinion that is a fact. All the matter we observe today came into existence after the first planck time.

I am not going into the evidence for consciousness before matter, not because I can't produce it but because I have talked with you enough to know that it is a waste of time.



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 02:28 PM
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a reply to: mOjOm

Did I hit a bone? You have talked with me on morality enough to know that I don't believe an atheist doesn't know morality, but I have also talked with you enough to know that you think morality is subjective(a matter of opinion). So as an atheist who ultimately believes that she is just evolved star stuff chemically fizzing to their dna has no OBJECTIVE basis for calling God evil.




The only difference is that you derive yours from a book while others derive theirs from life experiences and/or other sources.


I don't derive my moral code from a book. I believe in an objective moral code. The definition of objective is that something stays the same regardless of what I believe about it. Now do I believe all humans care about being moral, no. I do however think they all know when they are being immoral.



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 02:30 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb




Pesudo-intellectual? Its fake intelligence oh I am sorry I didn't know you could fake intelligence. lol...arrogant?


It's pretend intelligence, and it amounts to arrogance, yes.




My argument had nothing to do with proving the existence of God, but rather that humans had an intelligent designer.


Who is, of course, the biblical God.



First if the God your talking about isn't eternal its not the same God as the God of the Bible because he is eternal.

---------------------

Now it would be up to you to prove the God of the Bible has an attribute that requires Him to be created just as I have done for humans.






Um on what objective basis do you call him immoral?


The claims made, supposedly by him, and on behalf of him in the Old Testament.


As an atheist you don't have one so your argument is null and void cause it is really just your opinion on situation.


Are you trying to resurrect the argument that atheists have no moral compass?



Jesus is the OT God in the flesh.


If you say so.......same ole bloody rotten, immoral and evil impostor.



edit on 22-11-2014 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 02:32 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb


Lol no its not the same at all.....you are just being stubborn...I just told you I don't believe humans need a creator because they are imperfect and mortal. I believe humans need an intelligent creator because the body carries a semiotic dimension independent of the mind of humans. Human bodies have an attribute that implies intelligence behind its creation....That answers premise 2 of my argument for humans. You have yet to answer premise 2 for God. This argument has nothing to do with proving God's existence. I am only proving that humans had an intelligent designer based on specific attributes of the body. In no way have you shown that attributes of God require him to have a creator.


"semiotic dimension independent of the mind of humans" explain this in words that dont include "semiotic" or "dimension" so as to avoid confusion and broken record syndrome.

because maybe im the only one, but that phrase makes no sense to me.

ALSO: yes, i did answer the "2nd premise" you presented. but then you went, "Blegh, not good enough for me." just because you biased doesnt make my answers invalid. the same reason humans are believed by some to have been designed is what opens the floor to god having been designed and his designer having been designed. and your objections are naught but fluff and hot air. if you dont believe me, ask the other users in this thread. i dare you. i sinister triple dog dare you...


The theological definition of Eternity is a state to which time has no application; timelessness.(Absence of Time)


i use webster dictionary thanks.


Eternity relates to time and nonphysical dimensions. Infinity relates to a number and physical dimensions. Eternity has an infinite number of years/days/ect because eternity exist outside of the 4th dimension and absent of its effects.


yes please tell us how much you know about whats outside of the 4th dimension. im sure you have so much experience in that.




Um not my opinion matter came into existence after the first planck time. Matter and energy are interchangeable. Everything is made of energy. Matter is just a form of energy, but we know that all matter(all energy) came into existence after the first planck time. That isn't my opinion that is a fact. All the matter we observe today came into existence after the first planck time.


not necessarily. we dont know for sure what existed before the big bang. and neither do you.


I am not going into the evidence for consciousness before matter, not because I can't produce it but because I have talked with you enough to know that it is a waste of time.


im sorry to hear that you DONT have proof. maybe someday...
edit on 22-11-2014 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)

edit on 22-11-2014 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 02:37 PM
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a reply to: windword




It's pretend intelligence, and it amounts to arrogance, yes.


Well I suppose if ad hominem attacks carry wait you when the debate.




Who is, of course, the biblical God.


That is what I believe, but it has nothing to do with the argument I presented. I am merely trying to get atheist to accept that intelligence was responsible for the creation of all biological life.




The claims made, supposedly by him, and on behalf of him in the Old Testament.


How is that an objective basis for calling Him Evil? Yea there are certain claims you might disagree with, but just because you don't like them doesn't make those claims or actions OBJECTIVELY Evil. If you wanted to say you believe the God of the OT is evil by all means believe away, but you have no objective reason for believing he is evil lol.




Are you trying to resurrect the argument that atheists have no moral compass?


No, and no Christian has every presented that argument lol. I have no idea why the moral argument is so hard for atheist to understand. It isn't an epistemological argument its an ontological argument.



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 02:47 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb


I am merely trying to get atheist to accept that intelligence was responsible for the creation of all biological life.


seeing as how you are a servant of the LAMB, i highly doubt that. one particular intelligence is what you are aiming for, and we all know who it is. good luck with that...
edit on 22-11-2014 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 02:56 PM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
Did I hit a bone? You have talked with me on morality enough to know that I don't believe an atheist doesn't know morality, but I have also talked with you enough to know that you think morality is subjective(a matter of opinion). So as an atheist who ultimately believes that she is just evolved star stuff chemically fizzing to their dna has no OBJECTIVE basis for calling God evil.


Ya, my funny bone.

You just said as an atheist you don't have a moral code. Now you say they do. I don't understand what you're trying to say. Which is it??

Also, I didn't call God evil. I didn't mention God at all for that matter. All I said is that there is nothing about being an atheist that removes their ability to judge morality.


I don't derive my moral code from a book. I believe in an objective moral code. The definition of objective is that something stays the same regardless of what I believe about it. Now do I believe all humans care about being moral, no. I do however think they all know when they are being immoral.


No they don't. Believe it or not people can act in ways that some would consider immoral yet they themselves do not see it as immoral.

BTW, I've already told you this a while back, I'm not a She. I'm a He.


edit on 22-11-2014 by mOjOm because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 02:57 PM
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a reply to: TzarChasm



semiotic dimension independent of the mind of humans


"Walk north five miles."

Lets pretend you are reading the quoted section etched into a stone in the middle of the jungle. In reality these words would just be scratches on a rock, but because those scratches are symbols and carry meaning to something else you imply that those scratches were put on that rock by intelligence. Just one example of something like this in humans is protein synthesis. mRNA copies DNA pass the copied nucleotide bases(equivalent to the scratches in analogy above) to the ribosome and the ribosome(equivalent to the reader of the scratches) interprets the message to build a protein(the understanding of the scratches). Three different parts of the cell communicating using symbols that hold meaning.




i use webster dictionary thanks. theology has an awful habit of redefining every day words in the course of dodging logic.


I haven't redefined anything. Words have different definitions based on what you are talking about. I could say I waited in line for eternity for those tickets. Does that mean an unending amount of time ? No. Eternity when talking about metaphysics is defined as the absence of time. This is done by atheist and theist. WHy? Because we know that time is the fourth dimension. Eternity is used to describe something beyond that dimension. Something beyond time doesn't have large amounts of time but rather no time at all. No beginning and no end.



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 03:01 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb


Lets pretend you are reading the quoted section etched into a stone in the middle of the jungle. In reality these words would just be scratches on a rock, but because those scratches are symbols and carry meaning to something else you imply that those scratches were put on that rock by intelligence. Just one example of something like this in humans is protein synthesis. mRNA copies DNA pass the copied nucleotide bases(equivalent to the scratches in analogy above) to the ribosome and the ribosome(equivalent to the reader of the scratches) interprets the message to build a protein(the understanding of the scratches). Three different parts of the cell communicating using symbols that hold meaning.


have you ever met intelligent life that did not have this semiotic thingie?



I haven't redefined anything. Words have different definitions based on what you are talking about. I could say I waited in line for eternity for those tickets. Does that mean an unending amount of time ? No. Eternity when talking about metaphysics is defined as the absence of time. This is done by atheist and theist. WHy? Because we know that time is the fourth dimension. Eternity is used to describe something beyond that dimension. Something beyond time doesn't have large amounts of time but rather no time at all. No beginning and no end.


i am not discussing eternity with you because i might as well discuss the smell of mars in winter. there is no way either of us can discuss either things realistically.


edit on 22-11-2014 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 03:03 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb




I am merely trying to get atheist to accept that intelligence was responsible for the creation of all biological life.



Which what I said. You're rationalizing that intellect proves the existence of your biblical god. It doesn't. Don't you think that the religious have presented that argument before you thought of it?

Also, you're saying that intellect, projected through symbolism, is proof that intellect arises from a separate dimension than the one in which we are aware, which proves that God exists outside of our universe. It does not.

Our universe may very well have infinite dimensions, and, we may dwell in each of them, as well. If there is a creator, based in a separate dimension, who's to say there aren't infinite creators in infinite dimensions? Who's to say that we are all not our own creators, from another dimension?

Most importantly, one who creates isn't necessarily divine or worthy of praise or worship.



How is that an objective basis for calling Him Evil?


Are you kidding me?






No, and no Christian has every presented that argument lol. I have no idea why the moral argument is so hard for atheist to understand. It isn't an epistemological argument its an ontological argument.


How Can Atheists Have Morals? (part one)



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 03:05 PM
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a reply to: TzarChasm




particular intelligence is what you are aiming for, and we all know who it is. good luck with that...


Actually with that argument no. I am trying to get an atheist to realize that ID for life is more logical than not. If they want to believe aliens created DNA I would accept that as an honest response. Would I believe it was true , no but I would believe that it is a logical answer for the argument I posed. I would then produce different arguments if I wanted to debunk that idea. However I am not here to make people change there minds. I am here to have honest discussion about beliefs, but when someones belief isn't logical I am going to point it out if I feel like spending the time typing everything and producing research a person should be able to find on there own.



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 03:13 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb


Actually with that argument no. I am trying to get an atheist to realize that ID for life is more logical than not. If they want to believe aliens created DNA I would accept that as an honest response. Would I believe it was true , no but I would believe that it is a logical answer for the argument I posed. I would then produce different arguments if I wanted to debunk that idea. However I am not here to make people change there minds. I am here to have honest discussion about beliefs, but when someones belief isn't logical I am going to point it out if I feel like spending the time typing everything and producing research a person should be able to find on there own.


for something so logical, we sure did go through a lot of trial and error to get where we are now. and you would think INTELLIGENT design would have started with homo sapiens and skipped the countless variations and failed attempts. it almost feels like INTELLIGENT design did everything it could but go straight from point a to point b. since when does INTELLIGENCE mean doing things the hard way?

edit on 22-11-2014 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 07:34 PM
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a reply to: TechUnique




I thought other people's demands of proof of God were insane and incredible




I can't believe everything you just said. I thought other people's demands of proof of God were insane and incredible but that comment is unreal and just goes to show how DETERMINED people are NOT to believe


In a world run by your lower god jehovah displaying miracles in your bible who are you to judge a responder to your thread as insane, unreal?

I think you show no respect or christian love for anyone let alone your "enemies".

By the way did you ever think of moving from the violent country you live in. Would that involve common sense?



Please answer any and all of those questions, I'm trying to understand the psychology of an adamant atheist


I'm trying not to see the inherent "rah rah I'm special, I've had a miracle I'm special" condescending attitude of yours.
Do you really wish to walk in someone elses shoes or are you paying some sort of "debt" you feel is owed to your jehovah because of your near escapes? In other words are you trying to convert others? Is this the promise you made.

Again, I ask this question why not put your god given intellect to use and just shift countries?
edit on 22-11-2014 by TheConstruKctionofLight because: grammar



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 07:41 PM
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a reply to: TechUnique




I'm trying to understand the psychology of an adamant atheist.


No you're not as evidenced by your replies.



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 07:54 PM
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a reply to: TechUnique




I don't want you guys to die and miss out on the true life.


"true life" in your image? I am so saddened by those who have fallen for the deception of the bible. Living under the deception of jehovah

Yahweh = Satan. They have you worshiping evil.
www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 08:14 PM
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a reply to: TechUnique




Just because in your mind, something would be impossible because of having those 2 powers.. What's to say that that's not completely irrelevant when you're omnipotent and omnipresent


How do I even know you're human? You could be some computer algorithm scattering bait. Or you could be aScientologist/Christian hybrid.



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 08:21 PM
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a reply to: TechUnique




He's trying to get as many people 'on the ark' so to speak before he has to blow it all to hell


Sounds like you have recently undergone a revelation, and then saw Russell Crowes "Noah". Where do you get this stuff. Nowhere in the bible does it say in revelations that there is an ark for the believers.



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