Why isn't Satan admired more?

originally posted by: Rex282

What's there to believe.

Well for one I don't make assumptions on things that don't have evidence. So there is plenty to "believe"

are you a person?..then you are a soul
are you alive?..then you have spirit

that's it ...nothing more nothing less.....no belief... only knowing.

So you are saying that soul is a synonym of person and alive is a synonym of spirit? No more added to it at all? So if I die, I no longer have spirit?

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Logarock

Name one, in greek myth, or ancient nordic, that is pure evil?

I couldn't think of any. Pan is not a bad guy, he is whine and party, but also was the god of arts. Theaters and stuff where mostly dedicated to him. The seperated evil is pure Christian and Islamic.

Actually it's Zoroastrianism. Christianity and later Islam stol...erm... borrowed those ideas from that religion.

guess what else was stol - erm, borrowed from early spirituality?

The Abzu (Cuneiform: 𒍪 𒀊, ZU.AB; Sumerian: abzu; Akkadian: apsû) also called engur, (Cuneiform:𒇉, LAGAB×HAL; Sumerian: engur; Akkadian: engurru) literally, ab='water' (or 'semen') zu='to know' or 'deep' was the name for fresh water from underground aquifers that was given a religious fertilizing quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the abzu.

for those unfamiliar, apsu and tamiut were among the first (or perhaps the very first) concepts of "greater being" recorded by the human species. and apparently it started with water. which explains why baptism features so prominently in modern spirituality. abzu has only been acknowledged as a person in one writing where tamiut features as his mate. all other writings describe abzu as a realm from which enki arose. panbabylonism reconciles this tale in its entirety with the genesis account. how, i dont know. a thread for another day perhaps.

Think of the "reconciliation" in two ways....one is that the divergence seems small because of the close proximity in time and space that these ideas had in infancy if you want to call it that. Second that one side was superimposing and tweak the story to fit there direction. The Sumerian/Babylonian School is like a co-opted edition much like todays Babylonian Church, Roman Catholicism is to Christianity.

a reply to: TzarChasm

watch out I putted on my smarty pants!:
Spirit means consciousness, with creating artificial intelligence, we combined common sense and spirit.

Shakespeare was right about love and logic though...

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Logarock

Yea, you didn't read that wikipedia page did you?

Zoroastrianism arose in the eastern region of the ancient Persian Empire, when the religious philosopher Zoroaster simplified the pantheon of early Iranian gods[3] into two opposing forces: Spenta Mainyu (Progressive mentality) and Angra Mainyu (Destructive Mentality) under the one God, Ahura Mazda (Illuminating Wisdom).[4][5]

Zoroaster's ideas led to a formal religion bearing his name by about the 6th century BCE and have influenced other later religions including Judaism, Gnosticism, Christianity and Islam.[6]

You got it backwards. The Hebrews borrowed for Zoroaster.

Origins

According to Richard Foltz the roots of Zoroastrianism emerged from a common prehistoric Indo-Iranian religious system dating back to the early 2nd millennium BCE.[24] In Zoroastrian tradition, Zoroaster was a reformer who exalted the deity of Wisdom, Ahura Mazda, to the status of Supreme Being and Creator, while demoting various other deities and rejecting certain rituals.

The idea of one true god, the dualistic idea of good vs evil, and many other concepts ALL originated from Zoroastrianism.

Wkika what? Yea and you have never studied Zoroastrian traditions.

Anyway that's just what some guy writing for wick says. Did a bit deeper. Some say it comes from Indian and passed through Iran and now resides elsewhere. They have a concept of Moses....which they clearly picked up from Jews living in Babylon.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: TzarChasm

watch out I putted on my smarty pants!:
Spirit means consciousness, with creating artificial intelligence, we combined common sense and spirit.

Shakespeare was right about love and logic though...

sorry, but i dont think we have created artificial intelligence yet. lets not get ahead of ourselves here...

a reply to: Logarock

Wikipedia isn't edited by just one guy. It is sourced and you can view all the sources at the bottom of the page, but if you insist on going down this line of reasoning, I can dig up plenty of other sources that aren't Wikipedia that say that Zoroastrianism came first. Like this one:

Zoroast rianism: History, Beliefs, and Practices

Scholars differ considerably about the date of Zoroaster’s birth. Greek sources place Zoroaster at 6000 years before the death of Plato, that is, about 6350 B.C. Archeological remains in Turfan, China, state that Zoroaster was born “2715 years after the Great Storm,” placing his birth at 1767 B.C. The latest dates for his life come from Persian writings that place him 258 years before Alexander, that is, about 600 years B.C. Many other scholars place Zoroaster’s birth between 1500 and 1200 B.C.

According to Annie Besant in her lectures on Four Great Religions, the Esoteric Tradition dates the beginning of Zoroastrian teachings far earlier than any of those dates. That Tradition is based on two kinds of records. First, the Great Brotherhood has preserved the ancient writings, stored in underground temples and libraries. There are people today and have been those in the past who have been permitted to set eyes on these ancient writings. Second, there are the imperishable records of the Akasha itself.

According to these records, Zoroastrianism and Hinduism are the two oldest religions of our modern humanity. The Iranians, in their first migration into Iran, were led by the great teacher Zoroaster, who belonged to the same mighty Brotherhood as Manu of the Indic tradition and was a high Initiate of the same Great Lodge, taught by the same primordial Teachers, called the Sons of the Fire. From this great teacher came down a line of prophets, who superintended the early development of the Iranian peoples and all of whom bore the name Zoroaster. The Zoroaster the Greeks refer to may have been the seventh Zoroaster in this line of prophets.

Here's another:

Influence of Zoroastrian Religion on the Abrahamic faiths of Judaism, Christianity and Islam

Belief in an all Wise, all Powerful and Eternal God - Ahura Mazda, (Ahura meaning the Creator and Mazda meaning Infinite Wisdom) laid the foundation for all religious faiths. Asho Zarathushtra was the first to teach the doctrines of an Eternal soul, Equality of men and women, Freedom of Choice (to be able to choose between good and evil), Individual Judgment, Heaven and Hell, Resurrection, the Last Judgment (Renovation) and the coming of a Savior. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by the Abrahamic faiths of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

The Jews were in captivity in Babylonia. The great Persian Emperor Cyrus liberated the Jews from their captivity in about 550B.C. History records that he made no attempt to impose his Zarthushtrian religion on his subjects. He allowed the Jews to follow their own religion and assisted them in rebuilding the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem. His inscriptions bear witness to the fact that he encouraged each of his subjects to live a good life according to their own tenets.

“This was only one of the many liberal acts recorded of Cyrus, but it was of particular moment for the religious history of mankind; for the Jews entertained warm feelings thereafter for the Persians, and this made them more receptive to Zarathushtrian influence”. From Zarathushtrians-Their Religious Beliefs and practices by Dr. Mary Boyce.

The Hebrew scriptures pay tribute to the sterling merit of Asho Zarathushtra’s rule of conduct, when they speak of the law of the Medes and the Persians as one “which altereth not.” The Jews regarded Cyrus as a messiah, and therefore one who acted in Yahweh’s name and authority. Yahweh is quoted as “Cyrus will bring forth justice to the nations,….He will not fail….. till he has established justice in the earth.” Isaiah 42-1,4.

You can pretend the Hebrew religion was first all you want, but you are wrong. Zoroastrianism was the first monotheistic religion, and many of the concepts that all the Abrahamic religions celebrate to this day come directly from that religion.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Logarock

Yea, you didn't read that wikipedia page did you?

Zoroastrianism arose in the eastern region of the ancient Persian Empire, when the religious philosopher Zoroaster simplified the pantheon of early Iranian gods[3] into two opposing forces: Spenta Mainyu (Progressive mentality) and Angra Mainyu (Destructive Mentality) under the one God, Ahura Mazda (Illuminating Wisdom).[4][5]

Zoroaster's ideas led to a formal religion bearing his name by about the 6th century BCE and have influenced other later religions including Judaism, Gnosticism, Christianity and Islam.[6]

You got it backwards. The Hebrews borrowed for Zoroaster.

Origins

According to Richard Foltz the roots of Zoroastrianism emerged from a common prehistoric Indo-Iranian religious system dating back to the early 2nd millennium BCE.[24] In Zoroastrian tradition, Zoroaster was a reformer who exalted the deity of Wisdom, Ahura Mazda, to the status of Supreme Being and Creator, while demoting various other deities and rejecting certain rituals.

The idea of one true god, the dualistic idea of good vs evil, and many other concepts ALL originated from Zoroastrianism.

Wkika what? Yea and you have never studied Zoroastrian traditions.

Anyway that's just what some guy writing for wick says. Did a bit deeper. Some say it comes from Indian and passed through Iran and now resides elsewhere. They have a concept of Moses....which they clearly picked up from Jews living in Babylon.

yeah? did you check out ANY of the cited sources and their authors and companion materials also produced by them?

and where did this other information come from?

edit: dont bother. Krazy beat both of us to it. please, go on about how unreliable wikipedia is while mr krazy continues to dump research on your head.

a reply to: muse7

Because he's a dickhead,exactly just like the god of the old testament?

a reply to: TzarChasm

Hey this is ATS, what do you think why I write here? Hint: My crazy straw is, I do believe we are techologically more advanced than we know. Spoon fed to prevent mind blows...

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Rex282

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Rex282

which would be fine and good if the word spirit had begun its journey in the west. oh wait, it did not. any concept of spirit in the west (read: America) would belong to the native americans. and they worship nature.

This is not mysticism it is common reason.To make it anymore than that is self imposed insanity and ignorance.

spirit and common sense. is that like love and logic? because shakespeare told me those two dont get along very well.

spirit is life not some mystic "creature" that lives inside a person or an entity that floats ephemerally through the universe causing magical miracles.Life is the most common thing there is and it is "reasonable".

originally posted by: FlyersFan

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Why isn't Satan admired more?

Because he's pure evil and he hates us. You think God is cruel? Satan is a hell of a lot worse.

I have been unfortunate enough to have had a handful of encounters with demons. They are pure hate and when they are there it feels like all the hate is directed at you. It's soul chilling. There is NOTHING to admire about evil spirits and/or Satan. Nothing. If you admire them they'll just use that to inflict more hate upon you.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

This.
100 times over.

It says something sick about the world when on ATS.. threads about Christianity get more hate than a thread about Satan. I mean wow... come on.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

Well for one I don't make assumptions on things that don't have evidence. So there is plenty to "believe"

Thats why I said "what is there to believe in".You either know you are a person that is alive or you don't...... belief is not(or should not) be involved at all.

are you a person?..then you are a soul
are you alive?..then you have spirit

that's it ...nothing more nothing less.....no belief... only knowing.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
So you are saying that soul is a synonym of person and alive is a synonym of spirit? No more added to it at all? So if I die, I no longer have spirit?

correct..however a soul is something that is alive (animals included).If you(a person) are dead you are not alive.The fact is what the religious believe is incorrect(you already know that).People do not "have" souls they are a soul.They do not "have" a spirit they are in a state of it.

The op was about "Satan" being a entity (soul) which is completely false... satan is also not a "spirit being" because there is no such thing.However satan is a "state" that the religious carnal mind has entered into however it is not a state of "life" it is death(and no …..satan is not Hades).

The definition of Hades is the realm of death and imperception.In “death” there is imperception.That has two senses when a person(soul) dies they enter into the realm of death and are “dead”(not alive).In the second sense when a persons religious carnal mind is entered into by satan it is dead and there is imperception.

That is where “satan” was personified and then spawned “demons” that “possess” or “obsess”a person.Of course these are religious doctrines.Most of the time they accuse “nonbelievers” of the possession when it is mostly the opposite is true.The religious carnal mind “creates” a God in their image which was believed in faith through the forming of “their” Belief System religion.

Most of those with a religious carnal mind ruled(kingdom) by satan have a “herd” religion(like Christianity or Judaism or Islam etc etc) as the foundation and of course they are completely oblivious to this fact.They have made this Satan into their image also all done completely unawares because that is the nature and character of the religious carnal mind( to be blind).

So in the Truth sense the religious are worshiping Satan however that Satan is not an entity it is the state of their mind.That mind can never “ know” the Truth(the creator God) it can only “believe” in “their God”….themselves.It creates and believes doctrines to support their religion.Everyones religion is different because everyone is “their God” in their religion.

As you can see this one very simple construct is the epitome of perversion of the Truth.The religious create a God and sometimes(many) a Satan(or other evil beings) to justify their belief in their religion when it is all completely false.The saving grace of an atheist or agnostic’s is they do not “believe” in a false God.

The fact is... if there is creator God they have no rivals.There is nothing that ever could stand up to them.There is not a war between the creator God and Satan the only war is between the ears of man in their religious carnal mind where principalities and powers of darkness(death) rule.The apostle Paul knew what he spoke of.He was the self confessed most religious person who ever lived.

Mans worse enemy is within them(not literally).It is against (satan) the creator God which is Life(Spirit).Hades (the realm of death) only kills the soul.The religious carnal mind will awaken (and still be in Hades imperception realm)again but it too must die.It isn’t known how that will be accomplished.The apostle John had a vision(a dream) and saw it as a lake of fire..the 2nd death.Many of the religious believe the lake of fire is the eternal punishment of hell…how ironic….

originally posted by: TechUnique

This.
100 times over.

It says something sick about the world when on ATS.. threads about Christianity get more hate than a thread about Satan. I mean wow... come on.

Its not the Christianity that incites the aggression though, its the condescending superiority complex exhibited by so many who claim to follow the teachings of Christ while hovering on the precipice of hypocrisy. Don't get me wrong, that isn't the case 100% of the time and I personally think the message attributed to ole Jesus is a pretty solid way to live your life. However the irrational level of condescending arrogance towards anyone who does not bow to the god of Abraham, does in many cases, make a civil discussion rather difficult at best.

I haven't logged in on here in a long time but I had to on this subject. My fiance and I were actually discussing this the other day. The God of the bible killed way more people than Satan, and for very ridiculous reasons. It seems like the bible was written to condition people into not thinking for themselves and to not question anything. Satan questioned God and God got pissed, basically. I would never say this to anyone that is religious or bring it up to my friends or family but it seems to me that Satan was the good guy in the story, he was the black sheep that asked reasonable questions and had reasonable doubts. Even in our society today no one likes the black sheep, or the outcast, it's been embedded into people's brains for thousands of years to roll with the tide. I could go on and on, but no matter how you position this to someone who is religious, their mind is blocked off to thinking from this perspective. Good thread man, you're not alone, I wonder the same thing!

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Logarock

Yea, you didn't read that wikipedia page did you?

Zoroastrianism arose in the eastern region of the ancient Persian Empire, when the religious philosopher Zoroaster simplified the pantheon of early Iranian gods[3] into two opposing forces: Spenta Mainyu (Progressive mentality) and Angra Mainyu (Destructive Mentality) under the one God, Ahura Mazda (Illuminating Wisdom).[4][5]

Zoroaster's ideas led to a formal religion bearing his name by about the 6th century BCE and have influenced other later religions including Judaism, Gnosticism, Christianity and Islam.[6]

You got it backwards. The Hebrews borrowed for Zoroaster.

Origins

According to Richard Foltz the roots of Zoroastrianism emerged from a common prehistoric Indo-Iranian religious system dating back to the early 2nd millennium BCE.[24] In Zoroastrian tradition, Zoroaster was a reformer who exalted the deity of Wisdom, Ahura Mazda, to the status of Supreme Being and Creator, while demoting various other deities and rejecting certain rituals.

The idea of one true god, the dualistic idea of good vs evil, and many other concepts ALL originated from Zoroastrianism.

Wkika what? Yea and you have never studied Zoroastrian traditions.

Anyway that's just what some guy writing for wick says. Did a bit deeper. Some say it comes from Indian and passed through Iran and now resides elsewhere. They have a concept of Moses....which they clearly picked up from Jews living in Babylon.

yeah? did you check out ANY of the cited sources and their authors and companion materials also produced by them?

and where did this other information come from?

edit: dont bother. Krazy beat both of us to it. please, go on about how unreliable wikipedia is while mr krazy continues to dump research on your head.

Wikipedia isn't really as unreliable as it is many times incomplete.

Zoroastrians really look more like borrowers than folks borrowed from. But it would take a bit more than Wikipedia to come to that conclusion. Wiki represents the same lite work that produces the idea that christianity is a borrowed religion.

a reply to: Krazysh0t


All of this can be easily shot full of holes. One stament that stands out "Zoroastrianism and Hinduism are the oldest religions in the world". This is simply not true. It cant be shown. Its a ridicules statement.

a reply to: Rex282

I gave you a star because I had never thought of it like that. I will take this into consideration.

a reply to: Logarock

If it isn't true, can you provide the older religions? What are they. I'm pretty sure that statement means that they are the oldest known and still practiced religions. Though you are welcome to actually post some links and evidence to prove me wrong.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

a reply to: Rex282

I had to read it three times. I see the word carnal and my inner childish catholic school girl blushes and giggles, took a few reads to suppress her.

Interesting way of thinking if you believe there is another state for your energy/soul/spirit after the body dies and decomposes.

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: Krazysh0t
All of this can be easily shot full of holes. One stament that stands out "Zoroastrianism and Hinduism are the oldest religions in the world". This is simply not true. It cant be shown. Its a ridicules statement.

If that were the actual statement you might have a leg to stand on. However the actual quote was

According to these records, Zoroastrianism and Hinduism are the two oldest religions of our modern humanity.

It does not mean that there were no other religions prior to the consolidation of these two theologies into a coherent religion as we see in its current form. Quite the contrary in fact as Hinduism is known to have derived from earlier tribal roots predating the Indus Valley Civilization and Zoroastrianism was formed in part to do away with the multitude of Ahura's(gods) of traditional Indo-Iranian religion. However you want to look at it though, both predate Judaism and in the case of Hinduism, by well over a millennium.

The oldest Zoroastrian tombs have been found in China and are roughly 2500 years old and indicate that the religion was not just fully formed,but expanding beyond Persia's sphere of influence at that point.It was already the state religion and deeply entrenched in Persia by the time the Israelites were brought to Babylon and had a great deal of influence on modern Judaism. There is a fairly distinct difference in Judaism as it existed in the Monarchist Period following David's conquest of Canaan around 1000 BCE and the modern Judaism as we know it today the developed during the 2nd Temple Period which not coincidentally,immediately followed Cyrus freeing of the Jews and assisting them in rebuilding the Temple.

From The Jewish Encyclopedia-

Zoroastrianism and Judaism present a number of resemblances to each other in their general systems of angelology and demonology, points of similarity which have been especially emphasized by the Jewish rabbinical scholars Schorr and Kohut and the Christian theologian Stave. There are striking parallels between the two faiths and Christianity in their eschatological teachings—the doctrines of a regenerate world, a perfect kingdom, the coming of a Messiah, the resurrection of the dead, and the life everlasting. Both Zoroastrianism and Judaism are revealed religions: in the one Ahuramazda imparts his revelation and pronounces his commandments to Zarathustra on "the Mountain of the Two Holy Communing Ones"; in the other Yhwh holds a similar communion with Moses on Sinai. The Magian laws of purification, moreover, more particularly those practised to remove pollution incurred through contact with dead or unclean matter, are given in the Avestan Vendïdād quite as elaborately as in the Levitical code, with which the Zoroastrian book has been compared (see Avesta). The two religions agree in certain respects with regard to their cosmological ideas. The six days of Creation in Genesis find a parallel in the six periods of Creation described in the Zoroastrian scriptures. Mankind, according to each religion, is descended from a single couple, and Mashya (man) and Mashyana are the Iranian Adam (man) and Eve. In the Bible a deluge destroys all people except a single righteous individual and his family; in the Avesta a winter depopulates the earth except in the Vara ("enclosure") of the blessed Yima. In each case the earth is peopled anew with the best two of every kind, and is afterward divided into three realms. The three sons of Yima's successor Thraetaona, named Erij (Avesta, "Airya"), Selm (Avesta, "Sairima"), and Tur (Avesta, "Tura"), are the inheritors in the Persian account; Shem, Ham, and Japheth, in the Semiticstory. Likenesses in minor matters, in certain details of ceremony and ritual, ideas of uncleanness, and the like, are to be noted, as well as parallels between Zoroaster and Moses as sacred lawgivers.