Terrorists might use Lasers US govt says

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
We're just a big liferaft in shark infested waters. These sharks are just waiting for us to fall asleep and let our hand dip into the water so they can bite it off.

Nice analogy....But to incorporate what you've said even further, it would be more like - We're all worried about the big bad shark, but it's the barricuda that we really have to watch out for - Those "unkown unknowns" that everyone knows are out there but cannot focus on do to the burden of a group of terrorists who've become the focal point of most of our attention....

Nice avatar, Enron. Dimebag is the man. I'm enjoying some Cowboys from Hell right now.

Some of his best stuff.....I wish I had made it to his show he had here in town a couple months ago - All my friends went and got to meet him and take pictures - They said he had a peaceful quality about him that they'd never seen in a such a rock star before.....

I see those sneaky terrorists have been doing backdoor dealings with those no good Stormtroopers...AGAIN!

I've heard that they might resort to using pork pies as a weapon. I am still waiting for more info as to how they plan to use these potentially lethal pork pies, I'll update as I find out...

[edit on 10-12-2004 by John Nada]

HELLO!

Have we all collectively decided to accept ignorance here? Am i missing the bigger picture or have i hit the bullseye?

Terrorist plan, or could use lasers to down a US commercial airliner? First of all, we're not that stupid so hats off and nice try to the neo-con fear mind bending carlyle administration. No terrorist within the United States (there are few if any at all) can obtain laser technology. No terrorist could sneak laser technology into the country without being caught. No terrorist could strategically position themselves close enough to a landing strip without going unoticed by security. I imagine this laser to be the size of a cannon, so come on give me a break! I believe an RPG or a suicide bomber strapped to hell with explosions would be low-tech and even more effective than some austin powers laser.

I swear, this is just proof that America is one bloated drama queen waiting for some obceen story to digest!

I am completely insulted by all these major media outlets all collectively running with this story feeding America lies. Since when have islamic terrorist gone from effective low-tech to American status high-tech? Are they strapping lasers on camels now?

Originally posted by syntaxer
No terrorist within the United States (there are few if any at all) can obtain laser technology.

You really believe that there are no terrorists in the country? There are many of those with allegiances or political ideaology similar to those who's purpose in life has become to bring down this country. I believe in the spy game they're called sympathizers. Ones who, if not already recruited, could be easily persuaded to join. I would bet my savings account that there is at least a potential for a thousand enemy operators in the city of Dearborn, Michigan alone.

Also, I'm not just talking about Jihadists. Whoever is playing around with that small laser, burning eyes, has the potential to at least be willing to shoot at a plane with a laser of any size. They could be some Nazis from Idaho. They could be a couple of crazed post-grad engineers from the UofU (a pilots retina was burned while landing in SLC).

No terrorist could sneak laser technology into the country without being caught.

Again, why would they have to sneak it in? There are people out there that build things. Some people build lasers. I bet the Irani lady that lived in the apartment above me when I was going to the U, who was working on her Ph. D. in physics insturmentation could have found a way to build a laser. All you need is some tools and matieriel. And a brain.

And don't forget about theft. People can steal things. And yes, there are some companies that sell lasers, and they have these warehouses where they keep the lasers, waiting to be sold. If they're not guarded properly, they can be stolen. Now you're going to tell me that someone stealing a laser is impossible, and that I'm reaching. You'd be surprised.

No terrorist could strategically position themselves close enough to a landing strip without going unoticed by security. I imagine this laser to be the size of a cannon, so come on give me a break!

SLC is surrounded by some mountains. Some of which are close to the airport. Certainly close enough to send a laser with a punch into a plane landing at SL International. And why would you think a laser would have to be the size of a cannon? Have you ever seen a laser the size of a cannon? There's lasers in Iraq mounted to the top of a HMMWV that destroy mines. You could easily fit a laser strong enough to do damage in the back of a pickup. Just put a top on it and it's concealed. Not doable you say? With balls, anything is possible.

I believe an RPG or a suicide bomber strapped to hell with explosions would be low-tech and even more effective than some austin powers laser.

Right, but small bombs going off, killing a few people at a time does not produce their intended result. Look at Israel. They've been taking them out six at a time since 1960, but have the terrorists won? No. Why? Because they are hitting the bottom of the economic pyrimid. The consumers, of which there are millions. They want to destroy us economically. In order to do that, they have to stop the flow of money. The most efficient way to do that is by causing millions of us to stop spending money, not by killing a bunch of kids in a night club. All that does is piss us off, and (justify) wars like the ones that are going on right now.

They take out major sectors of our economy, and they've got a distinct advantage, because as we all know that the full faith and trust we have in the US treasury is the only thing that makes it worth anything. The depreciation of our dollar has also to do with the faith and trust most of the rest of the world has on our dollar as well, as our dollar backs most of thier currency. So you see, if our dollar falls, everyone suffers.

We also can't fight back economically. We can't sanction a country, because they have no country. Do you know that in the Q'uran, it clearly states that 'Muslim Holy Land' is that land upon which any muslim resides? And how many Muslims live in this country? In every country? It also says that infidels must be eradicated from Muslim Holy land. The translation is up in debate, and it always will be, but whoever wants to read that and believe in it's literal sence always has the freedom to do so. Governments can't control anyone's beliefs.

I swear, this is just proof that America is one bloated drama queen waiting for some obceen story to digest!

Uh... what the hell does that mean?

Whoa, thanks DeltaChaos for setting my story straight.. wheeew,

Ok tonight's mission at home is to stock pile on counter measure laser items that i'll need in my bomb shelter. With the threat of lasers these days attacking the United States i'm sure it's better safe than sorry right? Also i'm dying to know how many terrorists have been caught within US boarders and charged with terrorism or ploting to terrorize?

Islamic terrorist speaking btw

Because that bully down the street who use to beat me up for my lunch money was certainly the neighbourhood terrorist from hell i tell ya!..

The whole story is ridiculous because it will not be done. Period, end of story. A terrorist isn't going to bother with something this elaborate when there are easier and more effective means. Giving this memo serious consideration just goes to show how dumb people can be.

I can't believe people are buying into all this terrorism BS in the first place. What evidence has there been of terrorism in the USA that was clear cut as it is in other countries?

You ever notice that? 9/11 has many many MANY unanswered questions and much contraversy as to what actually happened, as opposed to an attack say in Spain, it was more or less clear and cut, and the guilty party was identified quickly and effectively without all of the unanswered questions.

The real terrorists are the ones feeding the American public these BS memos and using politics of fear, and quite possibly the same ones behind 9/11...



[edit on 10-12-2004 by Thorfinn Skullsplitter]

Skibum
I am "impressed" that you have a movie. I on the other hand watched both buildings crumble in front of my "own" eyes very upclose and personal. Both of those buildings came down becaue the weight from the planes made the floors unstable and the structures caved in like a Domino theory.. End of story, oh yeah the booms people say they have heard, 1st one plane crashing into building, 2nd one the fuselage exploding when it hit the metal structure of the floor when it was ripped up.

some people, even trying to make a conspiracy out of a tradgedy.

I actually looked into the early reports from WP, and short of them having an aircraft, it can not be done. Reason that was given was that the shape of the Cockpit is on an angle, so it would be almost impossible to do it from the ground. Incoming and outgoing aircraft would be easier, but the same problem still applies as far as being Higher than the plane itself. Being lower to the ground, altitude wise, would also make for a not so "Devestating" attack. The only problem I see that could come out of this, is loss of Fliers, and that leads to another Loss of $$. There are rumors and reports circulating about a seabound attack, which I would think should be easier to carry out.

Here is an answer I received back in September from someone in the Know

I have heard about the laser thing, and it really doesn't make sense.

Home made lasers: don't waste your time, there are plenty of lasers
out
there that you can buy off the shelf. You can get pretty good ones
from
commercial places like Edmund Scientific (Barrington NJ).

Aiming a laser from the ground into a cockpit: Very unlikely.
Remember, the
cockpit windows are designed for looking forward and to the sides, not
down.
From the ground you rarely see much of the cockpit windows. While
rolling
into a turn, you can see part of the windows, but not into the pilot's
face.
To shine a laser into the pilots face, you would need to shine through
the
solid fuselage, cockpit instruments, and all of the other gear packed
into
the nose of an airliner. The only possibly way I could see to do
this,
would be to shine the laser from another plane. The distances,
relative
motions, and Brownian motion (turbulence) make this incredibly
difficult.
Just try doing it with a laser pointer in two cars from a quarter mile
apart.

Heating the fuel tanks I guess would be 'possible', however you would
have
to get a laser through the wing skin, tank insulation, and skeleton.
The
cost of a laser (and energy consumption) that would be able to generate
that
much heat would be prohibitive. Possibly a well funded terrorist, or
government could buy such things, but aiming is still an issue, as you
would
need to hold the beam in one spot of the tank long enough to heat it
sufficiently. This would require burning through the skin and
insulation.
The end result would be to drain the fuel tanks. I doubt that it would
actually cause an explosion (no open flame, reduced oxygen and
temperature
at typical cruising altitudes).

Yes, I do believe that Auto pilots can maintain a preset course for
extended
periods of time. They cannot, however land a plane or make complicated
(evasive) maneuvers.

Basically, I think the laser thing is pure BS. Technically, I think
the
attack in the article is possible, but I really doubt the scenario
described. A laser like that would be about as practical as a shoulder
fired missile, if for no other reason, but for the need to have a lot
of
energy at their disposal (these things don't simply plug into car
cigarette
lighters, more like 220V leads).

That's my two cents worth.

[edit on 10-12-2004 by TrickmastertricK]

Originally posted by Justmytype
Skibum
I am "impressed" that you have a movie. I on the other hand watched both buildings crumble in front of my "own" eyes very upclose and personal. Both of those buildings came down becaue the weight from the planes made the floors unstable and the structures caved in like a Domino theory.. End of story, oh yeah the booms people say they have heard, 1st one plane crashing into building, 2nd one the fuselage exploding when it hit the metal structure of the floor when it was ripped up.

some people, even trying to make a conspiracy out of a tradgedy.

But how did 2 air planes bring down 7 buildings total which ALL imploded on themselves? I believe the answers to a conspiracy is waiting to be discoved behind the other 5 buildings that collapsed that day.

Yes i know, plenty of threads, plenty of reading, plenty of theories, plenty of conspiracies regarding 9/11. I couldnt help myself though

Thanks syntaxer always the skeptic. Well if that much rubble fell on your house with the mass amount of pressure that was falling from the sky, dont you think your own structure would become unstable as well, especially if it is a building in the immediate surroundings of where the debris is falling. Trust me, I will never forget the sound of percussion I heard when those buildings came crumbling down. It was as if everything around was about to be sucked into a hole in the ground.

Originally posted by Justmytype
Skibum
I am "impressed" that you have a movie. I on the other hand watched both buildings crumble in front of my "own" eyes very upclose and personal. Both of those buildings came down becaue the weight from the planes made the floors unstable and the structures caved in like a Domino theory.. End of story, oh yeah the booms people say they have heard, 1st one plane crashing into building, 2nd one the fuselage exploding when it hit the metal structure of the floor when it was ripped up.

some people, even trying to make a conspiracy out of a tradgedy.

Dude I wasnt the one who brought up that garbage. I'm with you all the way on that. I was respondinig to a previous poster who brought up that movie.

There is a high possiblity for pilots to have their eyes burned.
This may be how this story has gotten started.



ABCNEWS.com
W A S H I N G T O N, Nov. 4 � Two American helicopter pilots flying peacekeeping missions over Bosnia have had their eyes burned after lasers were aimed at them from the ground.

But anyway back to the topic. I'm not saying the government has to spent a boat load of money to protect us in this situation. They did already what needed to be done. I don't think the memo was put out to scare anyone, just to advise law enforcement of the POSSIBILITY of the use of a laser. That way if a trooper somewhere happens to pull over someone with a huge laser in the back of a truck, they at least know to ask questions

This is not news in the ATS world...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Alas, I now have a use for all that duct tape I bought a few years back. No mutha-suckin terrorist will burn my eyes if I have them covered with tape.

www.cnn.com...

Well, CNN doesn't think it's bunk. Then again..they were the ones who recently chose to run a story about some celebrity being inconvenienced by the massive tragedy in SE Asia. Make up your own mind I guess, but if the plane was on approach, it would be entirely possible during the plane's descent. All the planes mentioned in this article, I believe, were descending to land.

**Oops, this was supposed to go in the other laser vs. plane thread. Oh well, it's relevant so I'll leave it. **

(old man voice) How did I get in here? This isn't Country Kitchen! heh

[edit on 29-12-2004 by WyrdeOne]

Apparently, there has been another occurrence of this near an Ohio airport. The FBI is investigating:

FBI investigates laser beam directed at airplane

Unfortunately, the link is broken and I cannot read the news story. However, I'm rather familiar with HEW lasers and can assuage a few fears with the following:

• Distance = Loss of Energy - Unfortunately, I can't quote an exact formula, because every laser is different in its composition and focusing. But the rule is standard, the further a laser goes, the less energy makes it to the point of contact. We do not currently possess known technology to produce a laser strong enough to slice through a plane at the distance a plane would be flying at. Or rather, no way to produce it without having a device the size of a house, which would pretty much give the location away right there. As such, the only viable use for HEW lasers at the moment is to use them to heat jet engines past their heat threshold.
  
• Lasers are Delicate - The best lasers are so delicate that they must be calibrated any time someone so much as enters the room the wrong way. They are also quite large assemblies. This is not a device you can just pack up in a few jeeps and throw together. A laser that could take down a commercial jet would, as previously mentioned, take up about as much space as a house, if fired from the ground. From the air, smaller lasers may be used, because the distance and difference in atmospheric composition is less. But for ground-based HEW lasers, they'd pretty much have scramble jets able to launch, reach the laser, and blow it up before it could be moved without breaking it. Additionally, the mirrors and lenses must be kept absolutely spotless. Even a single fingerprint or speck of dust can cause an HEW laser to melt itself. Terrorists aren't exactly known for maintaining sterile environments.
  
• Lasers Require LOTS of Coolant - By their very nature, lasers require a ton of coolant. The hotter the laser, the more coolant required. A lot of this coolant gets burned off in the process, and coolant is rather expensive. The types vary, as well as the mechanisms, but currently the best known coolant for an HEW laser is jet fuel, with a jet-mounted HEW laser. This is because if jet fuel burns hotter, all it really does is give the plane a slight "fever" and it flies faster. The heated jet-fuel coolant is then injected to the engine and it's dispersed. However, too much firing and your plane runs out of fuel. You have enough for perhaps 1-3 shots, at the most. SOoooo... that's the most efficient process. Now think about how much fuel a jet gets filled with. Now consider how much coolant would be required by less efficient methods, such as liquid nitrogen, and how hard to transport these liquids would be, in hostile terrain, while trying to hide from detection.
  
• Atmosphere = Loss of Focus - An HEW laser's primary purpose is to heat a jet (or missile) past its heat threshold, which would cause the item to either catch fire or cease to function. However, in order to do this, one must keep the focus of the beam on the same spot for at least a few seconds straight. Unfortunately, natural atmospheric conditions prevent this from happening. This can be illustrated by putting a cheap pointer laser on a tripod and shining it at a point far away, a few thousand feet. Assuming the laser even makes it there, if you watch the point of contact, you will notice it appears to wobble around the place. This isn't due to the laser moving, it's due to pockets of atmosphere and dust, water vapor, etc, changing the direction of the light. Keep in mind this is just at ground to ground-level. Now an airplane produces it's own atmospheric disturbance of air around it self, in the shape of a cone. This means you not only have to compensate for atmospheric disturbance, but you have to compensate for two radically different atmospheres as well. The top weapons contractors in the world have yet to develop a targeting system capable of compensating for this. The best (ie narrowest) wobble diameter that has managed to be made from a jet to a ground target is about two feet, meaning that in any given fraction of a second, the point of contact is bouncing around a two-foot circle. Now granted there might be some top secret targeting mechanisms out there that can accomplish a much smaller wobble radius, but if our own planes don't even have it yet, you can bet it won't be in the hands of some Taliban guy in the desert. In any event, the wobble is not yet sufficiently small enough with currently available HEW laser technology to take down a missile (which operates right at it's heat threshold), much less a plane (operates a good deal below threshold, to compensate for atmospheric conditions).
  
• Lasers are Expensive - One thing that can be said for terrorists, they know how to make the most out of every dime. And the simple math is that a laser would be far too expensive to use against planes, require too much maintenance, and is far too static. For the price of one plane-killing laser (assuming they even had access to it), they could get hundreds of cheap, easily movable, easily hidden, durable SAMs and simply guide them with cheap laser painting rifles.
  

In conclusion, the only lasers we have to fear about from terrorists are laser-painting rifles used to guide SAMs. Cutting, or Heat-Inducing lasers really aren't anything to be worried about from terrorists.

hi libra, thanks for the info.

I don't believe (well, I'll speak for myself) that the insinuation is that the laser itself would be used to bring down an aircraft, but it would be used in one of the following ways:

1. targeting for another weapon
2. disrupting vision for pilot/co-pilot

Originally posted by Valhall
hi libra, thanks for the info.

I don't believe (well, I'll speak for myself) that the insinuation is that the laser itself would be used to bring down an aircraft, but it would be used in one of the following ways:

1. targeting for another weapon
2. disrupting vision for pilot/co-pilot