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originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: Tangerine
Lol pay attention. I'm the one on your side. I thought the sarcasm would come through or maybe
You'd notice the username of the person in this thread who's been responding with your viewpoint more than you. People need to be more careful in their reading and not just jump to a response.
originally posted by: Tangerine
originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Serdgiam
So, I guess we already have all that down. What's next?
So, problem fixed? It doesn't concern you, so there's no problem?
Since you and all your friends have the rape and date rape thing down, let me ask you this. Do you or any of your friends have a sister, daughter, wife, mother, friend, that was raped, or is that something that you and your friends already have down too? Are your women and your friends' women immune from rape? Are you sure that your women are safe around your friends and their friends' friends?
Good questions but the use of the expression "your women" gave me the shivers. The "your women" mindset implies ownership and entitlement and that is the foundational problem. For what it's worth, your posts don't suggest that you intended it that way.
originally posted by: Tangerine
I would suggest that a large part of the sickness of society is patriarchy which is a bad system for both women and men. It's hierarchical and aggressive. The hierarchical part means, of course, that if someone is on top, many are not. The aggressive part means that the way to get on top and stay there is through aggression. Rape is an expression of both those things as are exploitation and destruction of the environment, exploitation of workers, war, etc.
originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Serdgiam
So, I guess we already have all that down. What's next?
So, problem fixed? It doesn't concern you, so there's no problem?
Rape seems to be the only crime on the books where it's perfectly acceptable that some of the blame gets placed on the victim. There is no other crime where law officials or media or public opinion bring in to question the victim's personal situation, personal attire, personal history, or personal choices.
Oh. My. God. If you're telling me that a woman barely clothed isn't asking for attention, unwanted or not, than you have serious issues.
originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: Serdgiam
You say you think the problem runs deeper than gender or patriarchy. I agree entirely. It's all about the me culture based around money. If every citizens goal is just their own success (especially when success is defined only by net worth) conflict is inevitable.
I've found that people who define success this way are by and large lacking in self worth. They increase the illusion of worth by making money or getting laid or buying some new toy. I can't even count the number of times that I've made incredibly attractive people or millionaires get incredibly defensive when I question their values even in very polite inoffensive fashions.
This defensiveness is pervasive. I think constructive criticism is nearly impossible in our polarized society of people who lack true confidence. That's the main issue and it relates to the current conversation. Anytime it is suggested that rape might have to do with failings of male culture the defensiveness is instantaneous and aggressive. I believe that's the entire point of Jon Stewart and Senator Gillabrand (actually it is the point, they say that exactly). Until male culture adapts to modern society it will continue. True men should be able to handle constructive criticism. Yes me and tangerine might have gone too far (and I'll willingly admit that as it's something I'm trying to work on since I've spent my whole life avoiding conflict after getting burned brutally over and over for doing so since fourth grade so I have very little experience in true constructive calm criticism) so I have a proposal.
Don't prove me wrong. Prove Senator Gillabrand wrong. I'm just some random dude spewing stuff on the internet and Jon Stewart is a comedian. This woman is a mother, a lawyer, and a US freaking Senator. Listen to her speak and tell me she's wrong. I bet you can't in good conscience. Proving me wrong is not hard but I dare you to find fault with what she's saying.
originally posted by: SunnyRunner360
In most instances where rape occurs in these situations, it is not a result of someone who was born sick and twisted, it is often the result of failing to educate men at a young age what is and is not appropriate. Furthermore, if I were a man, I would make a general rule to never engage in sex with a drunken female. Is that not a better resolution than telling women they are irresponsible for drinking? Something can be done but we have to be willing to do it and it has to start somewhere.
originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: Serdgiam
It's incredibly hard to stay neutral and polite in the face of brutal ignorance and oppression. Just ask black people. You seem reasonable and so does the OP but in every facet of society you can see willful bigotry and vast ignorance of the way others live disguised behind reasonable.
The main point is that I know I'm correct about the nature of most rape being related to male culture and issues of power/impotence. Its well documented. Do I know what to do to fix it? Hell no I'm just a well educated sheltered schmuck with an open mind. I do know that my changing the nature of the conversation serves only to prolong the issues. That's the whole point of Gillabrand and Stewart.