Jon Stewart - "Nobody says, hey, men should not drink..."

a reply to: Lyxdeslic

That's the problem. You think this is about women and many of us see that it's really about men raping women. The real giveaway as to where your sympathies lie was contained in your comments about women ruining men's lives. And no, not everyone knows the stats on rapists (their ages, occupations, where the rapes occur, etc.).

a reply to: Lyxdeslic

If that's what it's about title it correctly. Your post is about disagreeing with the idea that men should be held responsible for their actions.

If it's about how women can protect themselves from rapists the title should be "tips for women to avoid getting raped" or something similar.

You post is about disagreeing with a single part of a quote. Not even a whole quote but a part of one, which itself is taken out of the context of the conversation it is from.

This very thread is proof of the exact points made by Senator Gillabrand and Jon Stewart. Their whole point was that conversation on rape is always about what women should do and never what men should do.

You guys proved it. You wouldn't budge an inch on even the premise that the conversation is one sided. Except for one or two people, almost every post was rapists are inevitable so women should do all the work of preventing it by limiting themselves.

We've tried this. In the west it was ridiculous dresses and contraptions (chastity belts anyone) as well as chaperones/matrons and avoiding ever leaving the house alone or ever being with a man alone. In Muslim societies this is the well known and supposedly wrong burqa as well as never being alone in public or even talking to a man who isn't your husband along with a slew of other laws and traditions which limit the freedom of women.

So saying that women should do more is ridiculous. If you have that line of thought you should go convert to Islam and move to the middle East or maybe build a time machine and go back to Puritan times.

For the record these instances of extreme limiting of women's freedoms didn't help. Research rape in the middle East to get an idea.

So how about we try something new like limiting men. If you're not willing to be as extreme with men as history has been with women then can we AT LEAST discuss some more reasonable ideas about how to solve the problem by altering the behavior of men.

Even if you think prevention efforts are pointless (which you don't believe since you suggest it for women) how about trying to "cure" it after its happened by at least reporting and prosecuting the rapists.

But as was said by Jon Stewart and Senator Gillabrand (which I imagine you never even watched since you missed the point so entirely) it's nearly impossible to include what men can do in the conversation about rape. The tiniest suggestion that a man might have to change is met with an instant and overwhelming response that women should do more.

You guys literally proved their exact point and even now you can't give an inch. I wish Senator Gillabrand the best. You can be a successful mother and businesswoman. You can get elected to the government of the most powerful nation in the history of the planet Earth but apparently you can't ask men to even participate in the conversation let alone change.

PS you should listen to Gillabrand in the video I know you haven't watched or at least read up. The things male senators say to her are insane and a symptom of the two issues of male culture. She was warned not to get too fat when she was pregnant while also being told not to get too thin when she started losing weight after giving birth because the senator in question "likes his girl chubby".

TL;DR
Thanks for proving Jon Stewart and Senator Gillabrand's exact point.

a reply to: Lyxdeslic

Here are stats on rapists. Source: Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network:

The average rapist is 31 years old.
1 in 3 rapists is intoxicated.
48% of the rapists released from prison were re-arrested within 3 years of their release for another crime (ie, they're career criminals)
4 in 10 rapes take place in the victim's home.
2 in 10 rapes take place in the home of a friend, neighbor, or relative.
1 in 12 take place in a parking garage.
73% of sexual assaults are perpetrated by a non-stranger.
38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.
28% of rapists are intimates (ie. husband or boyfriend of the victim).
7% of rapists are relatives.

a reply to: tavi45

Why dont you actually make some of those suggestions?

What do you suggest I do, as a male?

a reply to: Serdgiam

What do you suggest I do, as a male?

Help us delineate between culturally "blurred lines" that makes it seem as though sexual assault is as American as apple pie.



Help us break the "I know you wanted it" mentality, that is still the "cool image" today!

originally posted by: GENERAL EYES

If a young woman plans to out and get "wasted", then she should make sure to have a designated driver and personal bodyguard/babysitter to help her get home safely when she becomes incapacitated....instead on naively believing everyone out there of the male persuasion is a knight in shining armor.

Time and time again it has been proven this is not always the case.

I'm not victim blaming here - I'm a woman myself and been through more than I care to share - but when you know the potential to be raped exists, why on earth would any female prefer to stick her head in the sand and continue protesting that they have no responsibility whatsoever to protect themselves from potential predators?

Until rapists no longer feel the need to rape, we have to accept that it is our duty - as parents, females, concerned citizens and as a society - to not turn a blind eye to the very real threat of sexual predators and adjust our behavior accordingly.

Good point .. people on here saying a woman could dress scantily and get drunk all her life is OK ..are seriously warped ! I couldn't believe someone would actually think that way .. people like that must be from the 'mommy told me i'm special' generation ..
sorry to say .. but it's not always the man's fault .. EVERYONE, yes, even scantily dressed piss drunk women, are responsible for their behavior in public ..point blank!
Sexual attraction is a very strong human force .. and in the mix with alcohol .. you can not just blindly blame the man .. when the woman is piss drunk also ..
If you want to avoid RAPE .. then avoid the situation altogether ..rather than blaming others .. this society we live in is very dangerous .. it has mentally unstable people everywhere in the cities.. women should know this .. and realize that when alcohol is in the mix.. there will be a few that will always prey on you when they see you in that piss drunk scantily dressed state .. if you have a body guard as someone suggested or someone to look after you, fine, thats MAY be ok (although I still don't recommend it) .. if not, you will be screwed sooner or later when you play with fire ..

It's like jumping into a lions den every day and expecting it to not do anything ..lol it eats you one day and you blame the lion ..?? pleaseeee .. get a reality check ..!

The only situations where I believe rape is actually rape .. is when a PERSON (man or woman) .. is drugged, or sexually attacked while they are in their normal senses .. in these two instances, it's clear ..

originally posted by: windword
Help us delineate between culturally "blurred lines" that makes it seem as though sexual assault is as American as apple pie.

I don't know any males that think this way. Any other ideas that dont assume I am part of the 'rape culture?'

This is actually the first time I have even heard the someone on the topic specify Americans. What about those trying outside of the Americas?

Help us break the "I know you wanted it" mentality, that is still the "cool image" today!

I don't know any males that profess the "I know you wanted it" mentality, nor do I know any that think its 'cool.' In 'male culture,' rape is widely regarded in the same vein as a select few crimes (like pedophelia) and frequently will be met with violence.

Mainstream media (which technically includes the music business), is a prime example of the extremes of society and it is designed as social programming. Its a much, much broader topic than just rape, and that's critically important. One should never use it to point out 'realities' of a large scope though, as that is highly inaccurate.

That said, I agree that pop music is a negative influence and in many ways! Its designed that way specifically. But, I do not create that trash, nor do I peddle it or promote it. I have always supported music with depth, creativity, and even spiritual elements.

I'm honestly willing to listen on this, but things have to be based in reality and not the exaggerated view sold by media. Years ago I even started to decry the use of the word 'rape' in gaming, and any references to it were banned in my groups. That was established by mandating respect, rather than focusing on rape though.

My issue comes in when the chauvinistic declarations start flying. When generalized statements start being made, it automatically isolates most of the allies that might otherwise have no issue and most will voice their opinion. Then that tends to be incorrectly perceived as a defense of the 'rape culture,' which just deepens the problem.

a reply to: junglimogli

If there was a lion roaming Central Park we'd kill or capture it real quick. Thanks for adding even more weight to the it's women's problem side. There's not enough ignorance already in this thread. At least you guys are keeping me busy.

a reply to: junglimogli

So, if a person deserved to be raped, then it really wasn't rape?

a reply to: Serdgiam

My issue comes in when the chauvinistic declarations start flying. When generalized statements start being made, it automatically isolates most of the allies that might otherwise have no issue.

I understand, and, I am in no way singling you out. But, you did ask (for it).

Yes, there still is a strong chauvinistic mentality that women are for the taking, as historically exemplified in the famous picture called "The Kiss", that I posted above. That iconic photo was a photo of a sexual assault. I doubt that sailor was a a rapist but he never thought 2 seconds about his right to grab and overpower a stranger and throw his tongue down her throat. regardless of how we have collectively accepted and justified his behavior, he is a hero that is guilty of sexual assault.

That chauvinistic mentality is still being promoted as normal and is only being challenged by the perceived extreme fringe "feminists". In the meantime, women on college campuses are being raped in record numbers, and they're the one taking the blame, still.

Jon Stewart was simply addressing the need to re-educate men, redefining the "blurred lines", and not tolerating the "boys will be boys" attitudes that were culturally acceptable at one time, but are not now.

a reply to: Serdgiam

For every person like me that generalizes and blames male culture there's many more who generalize and blame slutty women.

Just look at this thread for some evidence of this.

The whole rape is the same as pedopholia to most males comment is funny because it's only true about violent and obvious rape. No guy in America (I hope) would condone a rape committed against a middle aged woman at say a playground or grocery store but plenty do conceive the rape of hot drunk sluts. Once again just look at this thread.

As for me isolating potential allies, any man who can't be self reflective and open minded about very clear issues with how men view women is not a potential ally just like no KKK member is a potential ally in black rights.

You all miss the point. I'm not saying all men are evil. I'm not saying all men are rapists. What I'm saying is that predominant male culture in America and I'm assuming most of the world treats sex with women as not a facet of an positive or even as a mutually beneficial fun activity but as a conquest, a right, or at the very very very least an accomplishment.

I've been steeped in male culture my whole life. Both sides of my family are very traditionally masculine and so were almost all my friends so far except for like 2 gay guys and like 4 girls. The entire culture is based on the idea that women exist as accessories and sex providers for men. My cousins would tell stories of their sexual conquests on camping trips. My friends would complain to me about how after going out with a girl a few times that she wouldn't put out. When a friend of mine did get laid he would brag about it, put down the less successful of my friends, and receive accolades and congratulations.

Yes most men would never rape a women but when you never have any success it becomes more palatable. When you view getting laid as a primary indicator of success as a man and you're not getting laid you view yourself as a failure and so do others.

One of my best friends is not only kinda strange and offensive but also has a massive curly Jew fro (he's not Jewish) and weighs somewhere around 350 lbs or so. My friends constantly make fun of him for never getting laid and I have a sneaking suspicion he #ed a drunk girl while she was passed out based on a joke he made in poor taste. I'll never know for sure and hope I'm wrong but I wouldn't be shocked. He gets treated like # by everyone even his friends so it makes sense he would seek valuation through sex by any means he could get away with.

No man in his right mind would violently rape a girl in broad daylight but many can justify it behind closed doors. Just look at how common it is for girls to get roofied in college. Hell it's practically a staple in college movies. If you watched American horror story : coven the sexy famous actress chick gets raped by a jock. Yeah she's a whore who flaunts it and a total arrogant # and treats guys (and everyone else like #) but that doesn't justify it. For many guys (and as I've learned in this thread some women) this is legitimate. She used sex as a tool and was totally asking for it. But when I watched her being raped I felt terrible for her and never once did it cross my mind that she deserved it. I know for sure there are guys out there who identify with the rapist and probably cheered him on for giving that #y slut what she had coming.

So I'll stop generalizing about male culture when it stops treating sex as a deserved reward for just existing. I'll stop generalizing about men when a guy sees his frat brother has roofies and calls him out. I'll stop generalizing about men when people stop turning rape discussions into "maybe that slut shouldn't be asking to get raped".

a reply to: windword

Hey windword how do I applaud you for your post. I love you bringing that famous WW2 picture up as well as for helping me in my mission

You're half right. All women are potential rape victims. But you're wrong when you say not all men are potential rapists. Potentially, they are. The difference is that no woman choses to be a rape victim and some men chose to rape.

If you're going to use the word potential, I suggest you use it appropriately.

All people are both potential rapists and rape victims, it is a crime that is committed on and by both genders.

women in america shouldn't drink for the same reason as women in afghanistan had to dress from head toe!
lest they tempt the weak males in society!
really it's the same thought process the arabs use to justify not letting women drive or being confined in their homes or dressing in a burkka!
and the idea that mom should have her eyes on her child every second while he's playing on the playground is equally off the wall! in the late 60s early 70s we were able to not only play on the playground unsupervised but we could walk there alone also. and guess what it gave us the freedom to get into trouble, make mistakes, meet friends and well lose friends, do all kinds of stupid things really and learn from the mistakes that more than likely mom wouldn't have allowed us to make if she had her eyes on us every second of the day! many of the things we learned we learned by experiences- you don't hit a person because there's a good chance that they will hit back harder not because mom will intervene and spank you! you don't be cruel to your new friend or they will not be your friend for long. you don't play kind of the mountain on the church's steps or someone's gonna get knocked down them and bust their head open ( that lesson is probably still being taught to the neighborhood children because the blood stain is still there!)
If the only reason children to "good" things is that there is an authoritarian figure around to prevent them from doing "bad" things then you aren't really teaching them the why.

a reply to: Serdgiam
umm considering how child support payments could screw up your life for about 18-20 years or so ummm
don't go picking up drunk girls at bars and having sex with them
matter of fact don't have sex with any girls until you know them well enough to know that you wouldn't mind being tied down by them for about oh 18-20 years at least??
why is it that girls are irresponsible for drinking too much but men aren't when they pick them up drunk out of their mind and proceed to procreate with them?

a reply to: windword

I was referring to chauvinism from both genders, as it is not gender specific but behavioral.

I did ask, but it was from the perspective of me personally. I am a male, and it has been said I need education. But, I am wondering exactly what it is I am supposed to learn that I do not already know, or what I am supposed to do other than what I am doing.

a reply to: tavi45

In regards to the pedophilia comment, I meant the reaction tends to be the same.

You are obviously free to generalize because 'they' do it, but don't expect good results.

I think you are misunderstanding a great many points from what you view as the opposition. I dont think that categorizing others as closed minded, etc. based on whether or not they totally agree with your view of the world will lead to anything but division . Others may see the situation very differently, but still want to pursue the same goals.

originally posted by: dawnstar
umm considering how child support payments could screw up your life for about 18-20 years or so ummm
don't go picking up drunk girls at bars and having sex with them
matter of fact don't have sex with any girls until you know them well enough to know that you wouldn't mind being tied down by them for about oh 18-20 years at least??

Yup.

why is it that girls are irresponsible for drinking too much but men aren't when they pick them up drunk out of their mind and proceed to procreate with them?

I would consider both of them irresponsible if they drank too much and both consented in the moment. I know women that get men drunk for the same purposes, but that tends to be acceptable. I think pretty much all of it is irresponsible and can lead to mistakes. It crosses the line into the criminal when one party is unable to give consent, or outright refuses. Both of those should be respected, but the former is being muddied on what exactly 'unable to give consent' actually means. I believe there is a very real discussion to be had there, but it is not gender specific. When we make it that way, it alienates an entire gender on what should be a general social issue (respect).

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
I said numerous times that it isn't their fault either way. It just doesn't make sense to me that men (No matter what the situation is for that matter) must take responsibility for their actions, but women don't. And I'm saying this as a situation outside of rape, as well. Women are always made to be victims. (I'm a woman, myself, and I've had it happen to me.)

It's the same thing with physical abuse, like hitting and what not. A woman gets abused, and they blame the man. A man gets abused and they still blame the man. How is that equal at all? A man gets drunk and gets into trouble, and he's blamed. A woman gets into trouble while drunk and they blame the people around her "Why didn't you watch her? Why'd you allow her to leave?" Why is it societies responsibility to watch over women? Why can't women take responsibility for herself? Why can't women be 'smart enough' for lack of better wording to be like, "Getting drunk in public isn't a very good idea for anyone," and etc?

You, as a woman, obviously have never been raped. Many rapes (most in fact) have no alcohol involved, many (almost half) don't even know their attacker. Many women are attacked at home alone, out on a run, or trying to enjoy nature. Only a little over half involves alcohol for the college age group, just for college age.

What kind of responsibility do you want rape victims to take? You do realize they have to live with this for the rest of their life right? That in itself has a lot of responsibility to it. On the other hand, most rapists never even spend a day in jail.

I don't like it when there are false claims of rape either and we had a case recently here, but we also had a real case (no alcohol, someone trying to enjoy the park). Only about 1% are false claims, unfortunately that can be in the thousands. But if 1% can be in the thousands just think of the 99% real cases out there.

ATS is double posting my posts today.