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Jon Stewart - "Nobody says, hey, men should not drink..."

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posted on Sep, 30 2014 @ 09:48 PM
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originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: Tangerine

Lol pay attention. I'm the one on your side. I thought the sarcasm would come through or maybe
You'd notice the username of the person in this thread who's been responding with your viewpoint more than you. People need to be more careful in their reading and not just jump to a response.


I did notice your SN, hence the surprise. Hey, people go nuts every day so you never know.




posted on Sep, 30 2014 @ 09:50 PM
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originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Serdgiam




So, I guess we already have all that down. What's next?


So, problem fixed? It doesn't concern you, so there's no problem?

Since you and all your friends have the rape and date rape thing down, let me ask you this. Do you or any of your friends have a sister, daughter, wife, mother, friend, that was raped, or is that something that you and your friends already have down too? Are your women and your friends' women immune from rape? Are you sure that your women are safe around your friends and their friends' friends?




Good questions but the use of the expression "your women" gave me the shivers. The "your women" mindset implies ownership and entitlement and that is the foundational problem. For what it's worth, your posts don't suggest that you intended it that way.


Lol. Sorry. I probably should have said "your women kinfolk".



posted on Sep, 30 2014 @ 11:30 PM
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Rape seems to be the only crime on the books where it's perfectly acceptable that some of the blame gets placed on the victim. There is no other crime where law officials or media or public opinion bring in to question the victim's personal situation, personal attire, personal history, or personal choices.

That, in and of itself, screams loud and clear where the mindset of society is still at... we are apparently still swinging from the trees.



posted on Sep, 30 2014 @ 11:47 PM
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originally posted by: Tangerine
I would suggest that a large part of the sickness of society is patriarchy which is a bad system for both women and men. It's hierarchical and aggressive. The hierarchical part means, of course, that if someone is on top, many are not. The aggressive part means that the way to get on top and stay there is through aggression. Rape is an expression of both those things as are exploitation and destruction of the environment, exploitation of workers, war, etc.


I think it runs deeper than genders, or a patriarchy, but we essentially agree.

So, what do you think should be done? I feel we are stuck with these behaviors until our entire society takes a hard look at itself. There are undoubtedly countless methods to accomplish that, but many will create more problems than they solve.



posted on Sep, 30 2014 @ 11:53 PM
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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Serdgiam


So, I guess we already have all that down. What's next?


So, problem fixed? It doesn't concern you, so there's no problem?


"What's next" is asking for actions beyond what was suggested.

So no, the problem is not fixed and there absolutely is a problem. I have my own opinions, but I wanted to hear others.

In other words, it was a genuine question.



posted on Oct, 1 2014 @ 02:07 AM
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a reply to: Merlynn

Oh. My. God. If you're telling me that a woman barely clothed isn't asking for attention, unwanted or not, than you have serious issues. It's called having common sense. "I hate when men stare at my ass, so let me just where these super short shorts, or these really tight pants and this crop top.", Really? I'm not saying you gotta dress like the amish, but have some common decency FFS. And rapists should be put in prison for life at the very least. Nobody should be forced to do anything sexually, but hey, guess what, rape is still gonna happen, and it'd probably help if you didn't make your self a target. Not all women that are raped act like that though, and I understand that, I'm specifically talking about ATTENTION WHORES that are surprised men look at them, tits out, pant's shorter than my toenail, and treat them differently than they would a classier female. If you can't respect yourself, how in the hell am I supposed to respect you?



posted on Oct, 1 2014 @ 02:09 AM
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a reply to: Serdgiam

You say you think the problem runs deeper than gender or patriarchy. I agree entirely. It's all about the me culture based around money. If every citizens goal is just their own success (especially when success is defined only by net worth) conflict is inevitable.

I've found that people who define success this way are by and large lacking in self worth. They increase the illusion of worth by making money or getting laid or buying some new toy. I can't even count the number of times that I've made incredibly attractive people or millionaires get incredibly defensive when I question their values even in very polite inoffensive fashions.

I teach for a very wealthy family, so first world that the mother's biggest problem is turnover of black and Hispanic servants who can't deal with the ridiculous expectations, total lack of respect, and get spoiled children. I had recently tried to teach her incredibly spoiled (like beyond what I thought was possible) 7 year old son math. She asked me today how it went and I quite honestly said that it went poorly. I said that the problem isn't a lack of understanding but a lack of motivation. He understood what I was teaching for the two minutes he was able to not fantasize about pizza but after that just would doodle (mostly pizza drawings). Yes kids don't have long attention spans but two minutes is crazy short. I know since I work with kids constantly. I started telling her that I think he just doesn't want to do the work while also reminding her that is normal. As soon as I stepped the tiniest inch into parenting she got noticeably annoyed and cut the conversation off not even with words but by just leaving the room while I was mid sentence.

I was just amazed that someone this wealthy and successful could be this rude when questioned.

It's not like I'm since asshole butting into someone else's business at the grocery store. I teach for a living and have been working for her daughter for over a year. She enjoys my opinions and solicits them on various topics. But yet when the advice she solicited specifically from me ventured into an area where she might be at fault it got shut down.

This defensiveness is pervasive. I think constructive criticism is nearly impossible in our polarized society of people who lack true confidence. That's the main issue and it relates to the current conversation. Anytime it is suggested that rape might have to do with failings of male culture the defensiveness is instantaneous and aggressive. I believe that's the entire point of Jon Stewart and Senator Gillabrand (actually it is the point, they say that exactly). Until male culture adapts to modern society it will continue. True men should be able to handle constructive criticism. Yes me and tangerine might have gone too far (and I'll willingly admit that as it's something I'm trying to work on since I've spent my whole life avoiding conflict after getting burned brutally over and over for doing so since fourth grade so I have very little experience in true constructive calm criticism) so I have a proposal.

Go watch the video in question again and focus on Gillabrand (since Stewart can most definitely be less than constructive since his goal is informed satire not sober reporting). She is incredibly calm, incredibly eloquent, incredibly reasonable, and incredibly right. If you can listen to her and still think that women are at fault for rape I'd love to know specifically why she's wrong. I'm incredibly open minded and love having my ignorance (which is vast) illuminated. I just find it hard to buy since I've heard the same sentiments echoed by people I know in real life whose sheltered bigoted attitudes are not limited to this issue.

Don't prove me wrong. Prove Senator Gillabrand wrong. I'm just some random dude spewing stuff on the internet and Jon Stewart is a comedian. This woman is a mother, a lawyer, and a US freaking Senator. Listen to her speak and tell me she's wrong. I bet you can't in good conscience. Proving me wrong is not hard but I dare you to find fault with what she's saying.



posted on Oct, 1 2014 @ 02:18 AM
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a reply to: CranialSponge


Rape seems to be the only crime on the books where it's perfectly acceptable that some of the blame gets placed on the victim. There is no other crime where law officials or media or public opinion bring in to question the victim's personal situation, personal attire, personal history, or personal choices.


It's actually not, but the important point is that to prove the crime of rape, the prosecutor has to show that there was no consent, and the defense tries to show there was. If the guy says there was consent and the woman says there wasn't, there is no reason to convict unless some other information is available. That means looking for more evidence on the subject where ever it can be found. That means looking at the past behavior of each of them and anything else that might prove it one way or another.

If the woman says nothing else but "I said no," and the man says "You said yes." You'll only get a very few rape convictions, and that can't be your goal.

As far as public opinion and the Media? That happens all the time. The Boston Bombing, Timothy McVeigh, Zimmerman, and so many others. Not much you can do about that.



posted on Oct, 1 2014 @ 02:45 AM
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reply to: ItzShadyT

So if a woman is attractive she shouldn't use her body to get what she wants? It's the most powerful tool most women have since that's all that men have allowed them for millennia.

Should rich white hedge fund guys expect to be robbed when they act like arrogant douchebags and flaunt their sports cars and watches and designer clothes?

We seem to be able to stop most thieves from preying on them even though theft is way mire fundamental to human nature than rape and far less morally repugnant. On top of that I think everyone can agree that the ultra rich are #ing over the common man far far far more than some random "attention whore"

So should Kim Kardashian expect to be raped? She's the most heinous and blatant attention whore I know of but I highly doubt that she ever spares a thought to that possibility since she's rich and famous. We all know she'd never get raped because she has connections and lawyers so no man would have the balls.

I don't know why I even bother responding to you. Most of the posters including the OP seem well meaning even if their not on my side. I can even see some of their points (even if I still think they are discussed to death and unhelpful). But you sir in particular don't seem well meaning at all. You seem bitter and angry on a very personal level. Somehow I doubt these "attention whores" care if they have your respect. I think they're all just hoping you don't try to rape them.

Your recent post contained a single sentence saying they should go to jail (thrown in as a tiny concession to make you seem reasonable) followed immediately by saying rape is inevitable and that the women make themselves targets (no one makes themselves a target, criminals target people). The while rest of the post (multiple sentences) is just describing the outfits and attitudes of attention whores. When you stare at these slutty attention whores and lust after them you give them power so if you don't respect them ignore them. It takes away their power.

It sounds like your the exact person we're taking about. Instead of ignoring these women (which would invalidate any power they have but require willpower and effort on your part) you are angry that they have power over you and other men.

Do you know how angry men with no willpower correct this power imbalance? I'll give you a hint. It's the topic of this thread.

Most rape is about power as someone said earlier. That's why rape is so common among men in prison. I've never met a straight male virgin who got tired of waiting and tried out some gay sex. I've never even heard of it. Have you? No? That's because it doesn't happen. Men don't rape men in prison because they're horny (do you think masturbation is banned in prison?). They rape other men because domination via sexual assault is an incredibly powerful tool for subjugation.

That's why rape has been a facet of every war in all of human history. It demoralizes not only the victim but strikes fear into other women and most importantly makes the men who couldn't defend her feel impotent.

This is just basic psychology of rape. But yeah keep blaming those sluts. They had it coming right?



posted on Oct, 1 2014 @ 05:38 AM
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a reply to: ItzShadyT
how about having some self respect??
would you want a women like you just described raising your children???
if men would ask themselves that one question before they go depositing their sperm into passed out women more than likely such things wouldn't happen as often.
but then that is probably where the problem comes in isn't it??
historically speaking and even in mother nature the male has been allowed to deposit it wherever they wanted for the most part and well scuddle on off into the darkness thinking his job is done if he chose to. Guys this is no longer true! How do you know that that passed out drunk that you met in a half drunken stupor a hour ago isn't the biggest b--tch the world has ever known and will proceed to make your life hell for for the rest of your life! All it would take if for her to have a few friends around watching who know who you are and well here comes the dna test and then well you are gonna be faced with the responsibility of being a daddy ---child support! The last bar I was in was maybe a year after my high school graduation and I probably drank a coke or something. I've seen my share of out of control drunks in my childhood and I just can't stand being around a drunk! so ya my opinion is a bit slanted here but still! you seem to be blasting the girl for being irresponsible because of the way she dresses or because she has drank too much but how drunk is the guy that he would open himself up to that kind of headache? and by the way like I said I spent alot of time in bars as a chidl!! I know for a fact that you don't need to be dressed up as a slut or drunk or even that pretty to get unwanted sexual advances by guys when they are drunk! Heck they don't even care if you are the daughter of the bartender who is working for them and is at the bar watching their every move!

but I was listening to coast to coast the other day and well they were talking about how "mother nature is trying to kill you" ( you can find this on you tube if you are interested.) there are some spiders that will have such a strong urge to mate with the demonic cannible female but still they want to live! So what to they do?? While in the mating process they will rip off their genitals and scurry quickly away hoping that the genitals will continue doing their job long enough for them to escape.
maybe these spiders are the reincarnated souls of the worst of the worst rapists in our society and well if
that experience doesn't cure them nothing is going to except maybe being reincarnated as a famale rape victim!



posted on Oct, 1 2014 @ 05:53 AM
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Oh. My. God. If you're telling me that a woman barely clothed isn't asking for attention, unwanted or not, than you have serious issues.


have you been to a beach lately???
hundred of scantily clothed people, some the size of hippos!
I'm sure many of them aren't asking for attention!
My husband used to bug me about how I dressed. I tend to wear pants on the hottest days (don't think I even own pair of shorts now) And well sometimes I woud dress the way he wanted---FOR HIM!!!
are you sure that the girl is dressing for you and not that big hulk at the bar ordering her drink??



posted on Oct, 1 2014 @ 11:52 AM
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Changing the title of this thread. If I can figure out how.
edit on 1-10-2014 by Lyxdeslic because: (no reason given)



Alright, couldn't figure it out.
But this has obviously gone a lot farther than what it was meant to and I think with a change of title maybe this conversation could at least LOOK like it's on track. lol.

Just as I've said before I think that a lot of things will need to change in order for the big picture to change. Media will have to change the way that women are viewed. Songs like 'Blurred Lines' by Robin Thicke, and "When You're Ready" by Selena Gomez disgust me. Blurred Line basically saying that even if a female says no she still wants it because 'she knows she wants it.' And Selena Gomez just chants the lines "When you're ready come and get it, nananana." Uh, what if he's ready and you no longer are, little miss? Media has to change the way that things are sold.

The higher ups need to stop trying to cover these cases up. I remember when the Ray Rice story came out about him beating his wife, a girl on youtube made a 'makeup tutorial' about it. Her foundation was renamed the 'NFL' because the NFL like foundation covers up imperfections. What she may have realized while making the tutorial is that most corporations are 'like her foundation.' There's something going on in Canada right now, Rehtaeh Parsons was drunken raped by multiple men while pictures were taken. And she killed herself over it. One boy is waiting sentencing and the other is getting charged with manufacturing of child porn. Why is he also not being charged with rape? It clearly was. What they said the picture was is of the girl barfing out a window while being penetrated. I can't imagine anyone wanting to be penetrated while barfing. Even in other countries men are being charged for the lesser crime when they are involved in a bigger one. My thoughts for this is because as I said in earlier posts is that this is a male driven world. And men (outside of those who rape) do not take kindly to those who rape. I think I remember hearing on a documentary about deadliest prisons that if you go into prison and you say you are there for beating a woman or child, or otherwise harming them, you'll have everyone after you. Could it be that the higher ups do not see the reasoning behind rape being a death sentence, while the countless men, women and children who are raped wish it otherwise? This is something that needs to change.

We need to require better sex education in schools. What consent means, and how to know if you've gotten it. The intimacy of sex, and why sex is better if it's with someone you love and they are willing to have sex with you. And that lack of getting laid does not make them any less of a man. I mean... The guy that shot up that sorority house can't be the only case of a man feeling distraught from his lack of sex. Society tells men that they have to be rich, sexy, have a nice car and be getting a ton of sex in order to be a 'real' man. And in his mind he had all of that, had everything that society tells men that they need in order to get females, and still wasn't getting them. His actions were in no way justified, but I think his actions say a lot about how men, the same way women are... Just a slave to society and media. That can be changed by talking to kids when they are the most open to other opinions, I think. 'Nice guys do NOT finish last. They finish first because they have a woman worth waiting for.' Or something.

While teaching men to respect women, we need to teach women to respect themselves. By being scantily clad, drinking excessively in public, or whatever else, it shows lack of respect. How can a man respect them if they cannot respect themselves? That sometimes more is less. And that there are other dangerous things lurking at every corner. It isn't just rapists you have to worry about. That sometimes your intuition is the best judgement. While also teaching women this, it's possible that a mandatory self defense class could be in the working? If a rapist attacks someone and they open a can of whoopass, they will probably run off. Again, scene causing. They don't want to be caught.

And as outsiders looking in, people need to drop the 'victim-blame card.' If you analyze a situation and notice similarities between cases, maybe something does need to change. You're not blaming a victim, you're just noticing that something needs to change. No one deserves to be harmed unless they harm someone else. And even then, we should be over analyzing the situation, and pick our battles, and by that I mean, just because a guy robs a store, and might short run harm the clerk, doesn't mean they deserve death. Someone who rapes a person and spreads it around, which leads to the person killing themselves, does deserve death.

This isn't a safe world, and anyone who treats it like it is, is an idiot. I'm sorry, but they are. This is such a tricky subject. Because everyone wants to go to the aid of the female by saying it's not their fault. It's not, but saying "it's not your fault," doesn't fix the problem. Overanalyzing, noticing the problems and education fixes the problems. This nation is all about the blame game, but blaming doesn't change anything. You can blame Obama all day about the confirmed case of Ebola in Texas, but that doesn't change that Ebola is in Texas. You can blame Muslims all day for terrorist attacks, but until you think about how you can fix the problem, it doesn't change. You know what I mean?
edit on 1-10-2014 by Lyxdeslic because: (no reason given)

edit on 1-10-2014 by Lyxdeslic because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 1 2014 @ 11:58 AM
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originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: Serdgiam
You say you think the problem runs deeper than gender or patriarchy. I agree entirely. It's all about the me culture based around money. If every citizens goal is just their own success (especially when success is defined only by net worth) conflict is inevitable.


I was actually just talking about this in another thread. I am convinced that it ISNT actually money itself, but what value that currency represents. I believe it should revolve around people, but going into details would be too far off topic. I am glad we could get somewhere on this point, because I believe we have all let it get to this point (including myself) and it is up to all of us to fix it. But we all have our own ideas on how to do that, and we have created a sociey that is relatively incapable of discussing differing viewpoints without looking at it as a battle to be won. A conquest, if you will.


I've found that people who define success this way are by and large lacking in self worth. They increase the illusion of worth by making money or getting laid or buying some new toy. I can't even count the number of times that I've made incredibly attractive people or millionaires get incredibly defensive when I question their values even in very polite inoffensive fashions.


I'm going to take the rest of the story for space, hope you don't mind! I find what you are saying is true about the 1%, but the 0.01% doesn't seem to have such issues. Not many have had contact, and the percentage isn't accurate, but its a different and organized group. They seemingly have no self-worth issues in the common sense, but it is massively inflated so I guess there is an issue there.


This defensiveness is pervasive. I think constructive criticism is nearly impossible in our polarized society of people who lack true confidence. That's the main issue and it relates to the current conversation. Anytime it is suggested that rape might have to do with failings of male culture the defensiveness is instantaneous and aggressive. I believe that's the entire point of Jon Stewart and Senator Gillabrand (actually it is the point, they say that exactly). Until male culture adapts to modern society it will continue. True men should be able to handle constructive criticism. Yes me and tangerine might have gone too far (and I'll willingly admit that as it's something I'm trying to work on since I've spent my whole life avoiding conflict after getting burned brutally over and over for doing so since fourth grade so I have very little experience in true constructive calm criticism) so I have a proposal.


See, I am getting my experiences from the women I know, and not from the media. Some of which are very vocal about the idea that the world would be better without men altogether. The PR given by these groups wouldnt make the mistake of claiming this publicly, but it is certainly an undercurrent in the movement.

When you say that you went too far, that was perceived by me as being quite defensive about constructive criticism. This seems to stem from projection, rather than actually listening to what the other person has to say. I hope this isn't taken the wrong way, but you do not seem to avoid conflict at all. This is the first post between us that doesn't include conflict.


Don't prove me wrong. Prove Senator Gillabrand wrong. I'm just some random dude spewing stuff on the internet and Jon Stewart is a comedian. This woman is a mother, a lawyer, and a US freaking Senator. Listen to her speak and tell me she's wrong. I bet you can't in good conscience. Proving me wrong is not hard but I dare you to find fault with what she's saying.


I am not interested in proving people 'wrong,' I think that's part of the whole problem. I actually agree on many facets, just not on all. I want to base my thoughts on what I actually see and experience rather than appealing to authority.

I want to talk about actionable solutions with both males and females participating. To be clear, I never stated a woman is always at fault for rape in the first place. But there ARE things they can do to be safer in a world that is not safe, and that goes for everyone of every age, gender, persuasion, or lifestyle. Expecting the world to change first will be a long wait. Perhaps even indefinite.
edit on 1-10-2014 by Serdgiam because: mistake



posted on Oct, 1 2014 @ 12:00 PM
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a reply to: Lyxdeslic

Its probably outside of the edit window but you can PM a moderator and I believe they can change it.



posted on Oct, 1 2014 @ 02:32 PM
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a reply to: Serdgiam

It's incredibly hard to stay neutral and polite in the face of brutal ignorance and oppression. Just ask black people. You seem reasonable and so does the OP but in every facet of society you can see willful bigotry and vast ignorance of the way others live disguised behind reasonable.

The recent thread about Reza Aslan is a great example. Sadly I'm neither intelligent enough or experienced enough to do proper justice to the points I know deep down are correct like he did. I've professed the same views as he does on the religion of Islam and how Westerners view it.

I know I'm not completely objective since no human can be but I'm more so than most since I have absolutely no personal issues in either case. I'm gay so the issues of heterosexual sex is meaningless to me emotionally but I'm biased slightly since bigotry towards homosexuals, women and minorities TEND to go hand in hand. I'm also agnostic and have no personal need for religion while respecting my religious friends and family (all my family is religious in the modern accepting and loving sense). There are some awful atheists and some great devout Christians and vice versa.

The main point is that I know I'm correct about the nature of most rape being related to male culture and issues of power/impotence. Its well documented. Do I know what to do to fix it? Hell no I'm just a well educated sheltered schmuck with an open mind. I do know that my changing the nature of the conversation serves only to prolong the issues. That's the whole point of Gillabrand and Stewart.



posted on Oct, 1 2014 @ 02:46 PM
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In most instances where rape occurs in these situations, it is not a result of someone who was born sick and twisted, it is often the result of failing to educate men at a young age what is and is not appropriate. Furthermore, if I were a man, I would make a general rule to never engage in sex with a drunken female. Is that not a better resolution than telling women they are irresponsible for drinking? Something can be done but we have to be willing to do it and it has to start somewhere.



posted on Oct, 1 2014 @ 02:54 PM
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originally posted by: SunnyRunner360
In most instances where rape occurs in these situations, it is not a result of someone who was born sick and twisted, it is often the result of failing to educate men at a young age what is and is not appropriate. Furthermore, if I were a man, I would make a general rule to never engage in sex with a drunken female. Is that not a better resolution than telling women they are irresponsible for drinking? Something can be done but we have to be willing to do it and it has to start somewhere.


It's a womans choice to get ridiculously drunk in public, the same way it would be a mans choice to not have sex with drunken women. I would assume that because of the law in California being passed, the Yes means Yes thing... That men will probably not be even trying to go after women that look even remotely drunk because trying to prove they got consent would be a pain in the ass.



posted on Oct, 1 2014 @ 04:03 PM
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originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: Serdgiam

It's incredibly hard to stay neutral and polite in the face of brutal ignorance and oppression. Just ask black people. You seem reasonable and so does the OP but in every facet of society you can see willful bigotry and vast ignorance of the way others live disguised behind reasonable.


It is definitely there, but it all goes full circle. Every group that is hated against turns that hate around to whatever is convenient. Then, that is used to justify each side. All people need to learn how to stop this cycle. The extremes and fringe elements tend to be louder anyway, but then this is amplified by media to make sure the 'Us vs. Them' paradigm stays intact. This happens on every single one of these topics, and the media is used extensively. The trick is in presenting something in a way that they can also guide the opposition on the topic. So, stories are presented with a narrative that divides the majority getting the story into two camps. It sounds complicated, but it happens easily and even unintentionally.


The main point is that I know I'm correct about the nature of most rape being related to male culture and issues of power/impotence. Its well documented. Do I know what to do to fix it? Hell no I'm just a well educated sheltered schmuck with an open mind. I do know that my changing the nature of the conversation serves only to prolong the issues. That's the whole point of Gillabrand and Stewart.


I can definitely agree that the nature of rape being connected to power/impotence in most cases. But, I see it as just one manifestation of the human behavior, rather than being connected to gender. Regardless of that, the goals between us are the same. That diversity of opinion, but commonality of goal, is a strong social foundation that has been increasingly erased in our interactions with each other. I think that is the deeper point in this situation, but it was delivered and used divisively. The tricky part is that those that agree with what is presented will be innately unaware of this.

I dont think you give yourself enough credit. Everything you do every day changes the world. What you do might not change 'everything,' but I don't feel that makes it less important and certainly not less real. It does tend to work better with conscious goals, but the impact is all the same. I really would be interested in the ideas you might have, there have to be some! Having a conversation ourselves allows it to not be guided by media and TV personalities. I think it is more important that it spurs on further conversation rather than a focus on the initial statement.



posted on Oct, 1 2014 @ 05:20 PM
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Very well thought out reply. This divisiveness happens mainly because people take up causes primarily for personal reasons. People give MJ Fox a lot of credit for Parkinson's charity but no kidding he had Parkinson's. Congratulations to what's her face on anti vaxxing. Her son is autistic.

I'm very very interested in seeing the movie "pride" which is about gay rights activists fighting for the rights of Welsh miners and vice versa. It seems very funny (hardy rural masculine miners and their wives trying to be friends with gay men and women is guaranteed comic relief) but had a poignant message.

This is why I like to interject in rape/women's rights issues. I have no personal agenda whatsoever. I don't know any girl at all who has been raped nor am I a straight man trying to get laid. I also like to argue as reasonably as possible against militant gay rights types despite the fact that I am gay and fully believe I'm no better or worse than heterosexuals.

I'd really love to see some hard core masculine celebrity take up gay or women's rights or a staunch granola eating liberal argue for gun rights. The rules of proper debate don't seem to apply to modern debate anymore. Everyone takes things too personally including myself.

That being said there are some very clear bigots in this thread and I find it hard to let them off the hook.



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