Jon Stewart - "Nobody says, hey, men should not drink..."

a reply to: Tangerine

You obviously have not been reading my posts or you would know that I am a woman who has been raped and my daughter has too! Yes, I have experienced the examinations and questions. You can feel like you are the felon through such ordeals, but by answering all with honesty ensures the courts will punish the criminal! Being educated on this ahead of time, makes it easier.

Edit add: to respond to your 2nd response to me. yes, if a woman consents to sex then regrets it afterward due to shame, she was not raped! There is a difference!

originally posted by: CynConcepts
a reply to: Tangerine

You obviously have not been reading my posts or you would know that I am a woman who has been raped and my daughter has too! Yes, I have experienced the examinations and questions. You can feel like you are the felon through such ordeals, but by answering all with honesty ensures the courts will punish the criminal! Being educated on this ahead of time, makes it easier.

Edit add: to respond to your 2nd response to me. yes, if a woman consents to sex then regrets it afterward due to shame, she was not raped! There is a difference!

I have read your posts and I know you're a woman. I was responding to the post in which you said some rape victims are real victims. Which rape victims are not real victims?

Of course women who lie and say they were raped were not victims like people who lie about being mugged are not crime victims (and how are you in a position to know they're lying anyway?) Are you assuming that a lack of conviction means they were lying? Assuming that a small number lie, how is that really relevant to this conversation? We're talking about women who have been raped. I regard bringing up the small numbers who theoretically lie to be a diversion (intended or not) that derails the conversation and provides a good excuse to not focus on the perpetrators of a very serious crime.

I loathe the notion of women regarding themselves as perpetual victims because it disempowers us. However, a woman who has been raped is a crime victim, period. Perhaps some women take on the role of perpetual victim because society doesn't punish the rapist or, in those rare cases when it does, still blames the woman for "asking for it" and "ruining a man's life". Clearly, the lives of women still do not carry the same value in Western societies (let alone others) as the lives of men.

Men aren't told to drink responsibly is because that men don't cry rape like women do . They take responsibility for their safety, not expect others to keep them safe if they make stupid and childish decisions. As a woman, I think woman should behave like adults.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
I hate this idea that women are always the victims.

Let me give you a chance here. If a woman is going grocery shopping when she gets off work and she is raped on the short walk home, is she a victim?

If a woman goes to a bar and has one drink and dances with a few guys and on her way to her car, she is raped, is she a victim?

We women have ways to rise above being a victim.

What does that mean? At 17, I was raped by a trusted friend (my friend's father). Was I a victim? Should I have known better than to spend the night at her house?

I was a victim of rape. Do I carry it around and hate men and make myself a victim of every situation? No. Do I feel like a "victim of life"? No. But I was a victim of rape. I am a survivor.

What do you mean, "women are not always the victims"? Sometimes they're responsible for their rape? Please elaborate in hopes that some of us can understand where you're coming from.

Your posts are right on point. The OP's posts carry a strong subtext of woman-hating and woman-blaming. Anyone who doubts that should go back and read the first post on this thread. She (if the OP is really a woman as claimed) declares that women are, by nature, victims and hates them (and herself, if she is one) for it. The OP has also declared that this will never change. The real intent of the OP's posts is not to tell women how to protect themselves, as she now claims, but to blame women for being raped and causing problems for the rapists. I suspect that the OP is either not a woman or has a male family member or friend who was charged with or convicted of rape. A woman who truly felt that women are perpetual victims would be railing against the society that creates that situation not ranting about the poor men who are (unjustly, she claims) convicted of rape.

Uh no. If you want to try to analyze people, go back to psychology. You've got it all wrong. Women are by nature 'victims' because they are easy to prey on.
www.rccmsc.org...
States that 80% of rapes are to people who are under the age of 30. In that, 16-19 are the highest risk. Uhm, those are party and experimentation years. 16-18 high school parties. 19, first college parties. Let's look at some cases.
2012- Stuebenville, Ohio.
June - Vanderbilt University.
The rape happened precisely because alcohol was involved. They were easy to prey on and overpower. In our culture, those who were blaming the victim would say that she invited men to rape her because she got so drunk in public that she blacked out. I'm not saying that, I'm acknowledging that a large portion of rapes between 16-19 year olds include alcohol, and because of that, parents need to step up and watch their kids. Alcohol needs to be harder for teenagers to get, and maybe it's a possibility that due to the alarming amount of stories coming out about rape involving alcohol, that maybe women should avoid getting # faced in public. Because guess what both stories have in common?
Adults tried to cover it up. What does that say about the adults in our culture? Serena Williams got a lot of hate when she voiced her opinion on Stuebenville. She questioned why the girl was so drunk she couldn't remember. For a society that teaches young girls to be aware, there sure are a lot of girls doing the thing they shouldn't be. Think about it. It could have been much, much worse. When a female gets drunk, danger lurks at every corner. Why would a girl put themselves in a harmful situation KNOWING that something bad could happen?
That's all I'm saying. I agree with the interview, but I disagree with this quote. People against rape culture say everyday that men should change. Men should not rape. I've read it numerous times in this thread. And I agree with that. But I also think that women need to let go of this idea that they are being blamed, and rise above being a victim. We could save a lot of females the pain of being a victim if people would drop the 'victim-blaming' card, and acknowledge the similarities between some cases, and educate each other about it. Maybe it's high time that while we start persecuting rapists, we also tell women that SOME of their behavior isn't acceptable, because it puts them at risk for much more than being raped.

No one not once, has said that men are being unjustifiably persecuted, other than in the case of the women just being ashamed of saying yes. If a women has sex with a man willingly the night before and in the morning looks over and gawks in shame, and cried rape... The male is being unjustifiably persecuted. If you do not agree, please crawl back under your rock.

pubs.niaaa.nih.gov...
states that " This work was supported by a grant to Dr. Abbey from the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism.
Conservative estimates of sexual assault prevalence suggest that 25 percent of American women have experienced sexual assault, including rape. Approximately one-half of those cases involve alcohol consumption by the perpetrator, victim, or both. Alcohol contributes to sexual assault through multiple pathways, often exacerbating existing risk factors. Beliefs about alcohol’s effects on sexual and aggressive behavior, stereotypes about drinking women, and alcohol’s effects on cognitive and motor skills contribute to alcohol-involved sexual assault. " Oh what do you know.. One half of the 25% of American women sexual assault included the consumption of alcohol.

Like I said, maybe the prevention of rape is now a matter of changing behavior of all men and some women. If this was a perfect world, boobs would not be used to sell everything from a bacon cheeseburger to soap. In a perfect world people would not try to cover up these cases. In a perfect world every aggressor would be put away. In a perfect world sex would not be used to sell everything from music to beer. But this isn't a perfect world and it's time we realize that.

a reply to: Lyxdeslic

Still doesn't apply to the military. Your arguments are completely 100% invalidated by rape in the military.

Once again EVERYONE agrees women should be careful. We are all aware that some women who get raped are not being careful. Some women lie about rape.

This does not invalidate the responsibility of men and women both to report and not cover up. The #1 issue with rape is that the culture of power of men promotes rape and protects rapists.

In the personal case I mentioned how can you explain away the fact that he was caught red handed and NOT EVEN SLAPPED ON THE WRIST. His mother and father and members of the towns government and education institutions covered it up. This sends the message that rape is fine as long as its not obvious and violent.

More importantly please address rape of women in the military. You can't argue they are defenseless, careless, or slutty. It's a widespread problem which, by necessity of the level of control and oversight in the US military, requires a male dominated culture of cover ups.

I'll say it again and hopefully this time you can understand (doubtful since every men's rights advocate whether female or.male is notoriously close minded). This problem can not be fixed by the actions of POTENTIAL victims. No one is suggesting that murderers are inevitable so you must be militantly armed and aware at all times. Yes murder happens because since people are crazy but it's a rarity in modern America thanks to strong response from the judicial/police system in preventing it. Why can't we apply the same principles to rape? Legal accountability and a culture of reporting rape as the awful crime it is. If your friend murdered a woman in cold blood most people would turn the friend in. Most people will not report their friends for rape.

As Jon Stewart says it's mind boggling that everyone ALWAYS discusses what women should do but NEVER what men should do.

Congratulations on missing the entire point of the discussion to focus on a single quote that you used ENTIRELY out of context. The quote amusingly enough negates your points. You are all telling about how women shouldn't get drunk just like Stewart points out is the norm but the mere SUGGESTION that men do the same is wrong to you.

That is literally the TEXTBOOK DEFINITION of a double standard. You all say "women spoke be cautious and not get drunk" but when one guy says quite reasonably the exact same thing but with the word "women" replaced with "men" it's terribly wrong and silly. It's a shame human beings are so good at turning off the rational part of their brain for the emotional.

To be honest I don't know how to fix rape in the military other than the officials getting their heads out of their asses. Which thus far has yet to happen. These women obviously need to stand up and do something about it. Do not take no for a #ing answer.

The same with your situation. If you are not happy with the way that something turns out, do something about it. Do not take no as an answer when it comes to your wellbeing and the wellbeing of those around you. If enough people speak out, things change. I'm accepting reality and keeping myself safe is reality. People aren't speaking out ENOUGH so women need to go into survival mode.

Obviously my point isn't negated, because what do you know, plenty of people in this thread actually agree with what I'm saying. Maybe it's because they understand that EVERYONE not just men, not just women need to be responsible for their actions. EVERYONE. Maybe those people, like me, think that the overuse of the 'victim-blaming' card is bull# on a stick.

You're right, it is the textbook definition of a double standard. Because men should ALWAYS take responsibility for EVERYTHING but women can't take responsibility for anything. We see it in domestic violence. Man hits woman, man is blamed. Woman hits man, man is blamed. It's sad that people would turn off reality in order to feed their emotions.

a reply to: Lyxdeslic

The issues in the military, sports, etc. are more likely from institutionalized cronyism than anything else. In those cases, rape and inequality are only some facets of a much, much bigger issue. Its not like we hear open, straight talk on any topic from organizations like the military. It is rather selective to state the only time secrecy and 'protect our own' comes into play is on the topic of rape alone.

I think we will eventually solve these problems, but its going to take both men and women on pretty much every issue. As it stands, we are becoming more divided by the day as each side blames the other. This is not the only divide that is being wedged into society, intentionally, but it does seem to be one of the most effective. Most of these topics have gotten to the point where discussion of solutions is put on the backburner while people just complain and blame. All the while, legislation to appease/enrage both sides is being used to hammer the wedge in further.

Sad state of affairs..

originally posted by: Serdgiam
a reply to: Lyxdeslic

The issues in the military, sports, etc. are more likely from institutionalized cronyism than anything else. In those cases, rape and inequality are only some facets of a much, much bigger issue. Its not like we hear open, straight talk on any topic from organizations like the military. It is rather selective to state the only time secrecy and 'protect our own' comes into play is on the topic of rape alone.

I think we will eventually solve these problems, but its going to take both men and women on pretty much every issue. As it stands, we are becoming more divided by the day as each side blames the other. This is not the only divide that is being wedged into society, intentionally, but it does seem to be one of the most effective. Most of these topics have gotten to the point where discussion of solutions is put on the backburner while people just complain and blame. All the while, legislation to appease/enrage both sides is being used to hammer the wedge in further.

Sad state of affairs..

That it is. I agree with everything you have to say here. Thanks for a well thought out response.

Wow a lot of disgusting people in this thread..that are making Stewart's points for him.

Telling woman..because of they act or dress...expect rape....really?

Telling woman to not drink because there is a possibility of rape....but say nothing to men..telling them not to drink because they may commit rape or even get raped themselves.


Why do the woman need to modify what they do in order to be safe?
Why do men not to?

Crime is not about how people act or dress..it is about opportunity taken by a predator.

originally posted by: Onslaught2996
Wow a lot of disgusting people in this thread..that are making Stewart's points for him.

Telling woman..because of they act or dress...expect rape....really?

Telling woman to not drink because there is a possibility of rape....but say nothing to men..telling them not to drink because they may commit rape or even get raped themselves.


Why do the woman need to modify what they do in order to be safe?
Why do men not to?

Crime is not about how people act or dress..it is about opportunity taken by a predator.

Which leads to the idea that not just one group of people need to change. All people need to. Which is the point I'm getting at. Everyone should be taking responsibility and altering their behavior in order to be safer. Oh, but that's victim-blaming.

a reply to: Lyxdeslic

I guess that, technically, my post is more of the same since I am essentially just complaining

But, I am personally working on other things. I don't have solutions thought up for this topic, but I can tell it is an issue that is deeply woven with social programming and conditioning. Because of that, we need to be wary in our work because everything is designed to create a bias, and then continually confirm that bias. It is a natural human behavior that borders on subconscious, which makes it a great method of manipulation. Especially if you can get people to just react rather than act with thought.

My biggest concern is the consequences of all of these things. Most of the people who are working in this field are focusing on items that will have no positive impact whatsoever. This is evident in statements like 'we should teach men not to rape.' Actually trying to pursue that avenue is a total waste of time and resources on a topic that needs effective attention. It also shows a deep disconnect with reality, given how most men will actually react to a rapist versus how it is erroneously illustrated by the 'movement.'

originally posted by: Onslaught2996
Why do the woman need to modify what they do in order to be safe?

Because this can be a sick and violent world. It doesn't give a damn about how people think things should be, only how they actually exist right here and now.

Why do men not to?

People constantly have to modify what they do in order to be safe. It is not gender exclusive even if the specific crime might differ.

Should it be that way? No! But, that is only something we can work towards as an ideal. It doesn't change reality right here and now. I am also not convinced that the way a women is dressed has a strong connection to the possibility of rape. But, I do not know the actual data.

originally posted by: therationalist
Men aren't told to drink responsibly is because that men don't cry rape like women do . They take responsibility for their safety, not expect others to keep them safe if they make stupid and childish decisions. As a woman, I think woman should behave like adults.

I find your anti-woman post loathsome and deceptive. The jails are filled with men who have been convicted of crimes against other men who did, indeed, call the cops and report crimes committed against them.

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
I hate this idea that women are always the victims.

Let me give you a chance here. If a woman is going grocery shopping when she gets off work and she is raped on the short walk home, is she a victim?

If a woman goes to a bar and has one drink and dances with a few guys and on her way to her car, she is raped, is she a victim?

We women have ways to rise above being a victim.

What does that mean? At 17, I was raped by a trusted friend (my friend's father). Was I a victim? Should I have known better than to spend the night at her house?

I was a victim of rape. Do I carry it around and hate men and make myself a victim of every situation? No. Do I feel like a "victim of life"? No. But I was a victim of rape. I am a survivor.

What do you mean, "women are not always the victims"? Sometimes they're responsible for their rape? Please elaborate in hopes that some of us can understand where you're coming from.

Your posts are right on point. The OP's posts carry a strong subtext of woman-hating and woman-blaming. Anyone who doubts that should go back and read the first post on this thread. She (if the OP is really a woman as claimed) declares that women are, by nature, victims and hates them (and herself, if she is one) for it. The OP has also declared that this will never change. The real intent of the OP's posts is not to tell women how to protect themselves, as she now claims, but to blame women for being raped and causing problems for the rapists. I suspect that the OP is either not a woman or has a male family member or friend who was charged with or convicted of rape. A woman who truly felt that women are perpetual victims would be railing against the society that creates that situation not ranting about the poor men who are (unjustly, she claims) convicted of rape.

Uh no. If you want to try to analyze people, go back to psychology. You've got it all wrong. Women are by nature 'victims' because they are easy to prey on.
www.rccmsc.org...
States that 80% of rapes are to people who are under the age of 30. In that, 16-19 are the highest risk. Uhm, those are party and experimentation years. 16-18 high school parties. 19, first college parties. Let's look at some cases.
2012- Stuebenville, Ohio.
June - Vanderbilt University.
The rape happened precisely because alcohol was involved. They were easy to prey on and overpower. In our culture, those who were blaming the victim would say that she invited men to rape her because she got so drunk in public that she blacked out. I'm not saying that, I'm acknowledging that a large portion of rapes between 16-19 year olds include alcohol, and because of that, parents need to step up and watch their kids. Alcohol needs to be harder for teenagers to get, and maybe it's a possibility that due to the alarming amount of stories coming out about rape involving alcohol, that maybe women should avoid getting # faced in public. Because guess what both stories have in common?
Adults tried to cover it up. What does that say about the adults in our culture? Serena Williams got a lot of hate when she voiced her opinion on Stuebenville. She questioned why the girl was so drunk she couldn't remember. For a society that teaches young girls to be aware, there sure are a lot of girls doing the thing they shouldn't be. Think about it. It could have been much, much worse. When a female gets drunk, danger lurks at every corner. Why would a girl put themselves in a harmful situation KNOWING that something bad could happen?
That's all I'm saying. I agree with the interview, but I disagree with this quote. People against rape culture say everyday that men should change. Men should not rape. I've read it numerous times in this thread. And I agree with that. But I also think that women need to let go of this idea that they are being blamed, and rise above being a victim. We could save a lot of females the pain of being a victim if people would drop the 'victim-blaming' card, and acknowledge the similarities between some cases, and educate each other about it. Maybe it's high time that while we start persecuting rapists, we also tell women that SOME of their behavior isn't acceptable, because it puts them at risk for much more than being raped.

No one not once, has said that men are being unjustifiably persecuted, other than in the case of the women just being ashamed of saying yes. If a women has sex with a man willingly the night before and in the morning looks over and gawks in shame, and cried rape... The male is being unjustifiably persecuted. If you do not agree, please crawl back under your rock.

pubs.niaaa.nih.gov...
states that " This work was supported by a grant to Dr. Abbey from the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism.
Conservative estimates of sexual assault prevalence suggest that 25 percent of American women have experienced sexual assault, including rape. Approximately one-half of those cases involve alcohol consumption by the perpetrator, victim, or both. Alcohol contributes to sexual assault through multiple pathways, often exacerbating existing risk factors. Beliefs about alcohol’s effects on sexual and aggressive behavior, stereotypes about drinking women, and alcohol’s effects on cognitive and motor skills contribute to alcohol-involved sexual assault. " Oh what do you know.. One half of the 25% of American women sexual assault included the consumption of alcohol.

Like I said, maybe the prevention of rape is now a matter of changing behavior of all men and some women. If this was a perfect world, boobs would not be used to sell everything from a bacon cheeseburger to soap. In a perfect world people would not try to cover up these cases. In a perfect world every aggressor would be put away. In a perfect world sex would not be used to sell everything from music to beer. But this isn't a perfect world and it's time we realize that.

Enjoy your state of perpetual victimhood and being a male-identified woman. See where it gets you. I note that you didn't pull up a profile of rapists just the victims.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
I hate this idea that women are always the victims.

Let me give you a chance here. If a woman is going grocery shopping when she gets off work and she is raped on the short walk home, is she a victim?

If a woman goes to a bar and has one drink and dances with a few guys and on her way to her car, she is raped, is she a victim?

We women have ways to rise above being a victim.

What does that mean? At 17, I was raped by a trusted friend (my friend's father). Was I a victim? Should I have known better than to spend the night at her house?

I was a victim of rape. Do I carry it around and hate men and make myself a victim of every situation? No. Do I feel like a "victim of life"? No. But I was a victim of rape. I am a survivor.

What do you mean, "women are not always the victims"? Sometimes they're responsible for their rape? Please elaborate in hopes that some of us can understand where you're coming from.

Your posts are right on point. The OP's posts carry a strong subtext of woman-hating and woman-blaming. Anyone who doubts that should go back and read the first post on this thread. She (if the OP is really a woman as claimed) declares that women are, by nature, victims and hates them (and herself, if she is one) for it. The OP has also declared that this will never change. The real intent of the OP's posts is not to tell women how to protect themselves, as she now claims, but to blame women for being raped and causing problems for the rapists. I suspect that the OP is either not a woman or has a male family member or friend who was charged with or convicted of rape. A woman who truly felt that women are perpetual victims would be railing against the society that creates that situation not ranting about the poor men who are (unjustly, she claims) convicted of rape.

Uh no. If you want to try to analyze people, go back to psychology. You've got it all wrong. Women are by nature 'victims' because they are easy to prey on.
www.rccmsc.org...
States that 80% of rapes are to people who are under the age of 30. In that, 16-19 are the highest risk. Uhm, those are party and experimentation years. 16-18 high school parties. 19, first college parties. Let's look at some cases.
2012- Stuebenville, Ohio.
June - Vanderbilt University.
The rape happened precisely because alcohol was involved. They were easy to prey on and overpower. In our culture, those who were blaming the victim would say that she invited men to rape her because she got so drunk in public that she blacked out. I'm not saying that, I'm acknowledging that a large portion of rapes between 16-19 year olds include alcohol, and because of that, parents need to step up and watch their kids. Alcohol needs to be harder for teenagers to get, and maybe it's a possibility that due to the alarming amount of stories coming out about rape involving alcohol, that maybe women should avoid getting # faced in public. Because guess what both stories have in common?
Adults tried to cover it up. What does that say about the adults in our culture? Serena Williams got a lot of hate when she voiced her opinion on Stuebenville. She questioned why the girl was so drunk she couldn't remember. For a society that teaches young girls to be aware, there sure are a lot of girls doing the thing they shouldn't be. Think about it. It could have been much, much worse. When a female gets drunk, danger lurks at every corner. Why would a girl put themselves in a harmful situation KNOWING that something bad could happen?
That's all I'm saying. I agree with the interview, but I disagree with this quote. People against rape culture say everyday that men should change. Men should not rape. I've read it numerous times in this thread. And I agree with that. But I also think that women need to let go of this idea that they are being blamed, and rise above being a victim. We could save a lot of females the pain of being a victim if people would drop the 'victim-blaming' card, and acknowledge the similarities between some cases, and educate each other about it. Maybe it's high time that while we start persecuting rapists, we also tell women that SOME of their behavior isn't acceptable, because it puts them at risk for much more than being raped.

No one not once, has said that men are being unjustifiably persecuted, other than in the case of the women just being ashamed of saying yes. If a women has sex with a man willingly the night before and in the morning looks over and gawks in shame, and cried rape... The male is being unjustifiably persecuted. If you do not agree, please crawl back under your rock.

pubs.niaaa.nih.gov...
states that " This work was supported by a grant to Dr. Abbey from the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism.
Conservative estimates of sexual assault prevalence suggest that 25 percent of American women have experienced sexual assault, including rape. Approximately one-half of those cases involve alcohol consumption by the perpetrator, victim, or both. Alcohol contributes to sexual assault through multiple pathways, often exacerbating existing risk factors. Beliefs about alcohol’s effects on sexual and aggressive behavior, stereotypes about drinking women, and alcohol’s effects on cognitive and motor skills contribute to alcohol-involved sexual assault. " Oh what do you know.. One half of the 25% of American women sexual assault included the consumption of alcohol.

Like I said, maybe the prevention of rape is now a matter of changing behavior of all men and some women. If this was a perfect world, boobs would not be used to sell everything from a bacon cheeseburger to soap. In a perfect world people would not try to cover up these cases. In a perfect world every aggressor would be put away. In a perfect world sex would not be used to sell everything from music to beer. But this isn't a perfect world and it's time we realize that.

Enjoy your state of perpetual victimhood and being a male-identified woman. See where it gets you. I note that you didn't pull up a profile of rapists just the victims.

Actually, the website that I pulled up first has information on both victims and the rapists. It has stats for both sides. But good try. And what the actual # does "male-identified woman" even mean? Lol. Oh lawdy.

originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: Lyxdeslic

Still doesn't apply to the military. Your arguments are completely 100% invalidated by rape in the military.

Once again EVERYONE agrees women should be careful. We are all aware that some women who get raped are not being careful. Some women lie about rape.

This does not invalidate the responsibility of men and women both to report and not cover up. The #1 issue with rape is that the culture of power of men promotes rape and protects rapists.

In the personal case I mentioned how can you explain away the fact that he was caught red handed and NOT EVEN SLAPPED ON THE WRIST. His mother and father and members of the towns government and education institutions covered it up. This sends the message that rape is fine as long as its not obvious and violent.

More importantly please address rape of women in the military. You can't argue they are defenseless, careless, or slutty. It's a widespread problem which, by necessity of the level of control and oversight in the US military, requires a male dominated culture of cover ups.

I'll say it again and hopefully this time you can understand (doubtful since every men's rights advocate whether female or.male is notoriously close minded). This problem can not be fixed by the actions of POTENTIAL victims. No one is suggesting that murderers are inevitable so you must be militantly armed and aware at all times. Yes murder happens because since people are crazy but it's a rarity in modern America thanks to strong response from the judicial/police system in preventing it. Why can't we apply the same principles to rape? Legal accountability and a culture of reporting rape as the awful crime it is. If your friend murdered a woman in cold blood most people would turn the friend in. Most people will not report their friends for rape.

As Jon Stewart says it's mind boggling that everyone ALWAYS discusses what women should do but NEVER what men should do.

Congratulations on missing the entire point of the discussion to focus on a single quote that you used ENTIRELY out of context. The quote amusingly enough negates your points. You are all telling about how women shouldn't get drunk just like Stewart points out is the norm but the mere SUGGESTION that men do the same is wrong to you.

That is literally the TEXTBOOK DEFINITION of a double standard. You all say "women spoke be cautious and not get drunk" but when one guy says quite reasonably the exact same thing but with the word "women" replaced with "men" it's terribly wrong and silly. It's a shame human beings are so good at turning off the rational part of their brain for the emotional.

I agree with everything you've said in this post. There's a tremendous problem with men condoning rape committed by other men and there's a tremendous problem with male-identified women blaming women for being raped and making excuses for the men. It's as though these women think they'll get an immunity badge to wear that will protect them. I know that logically it makes no sense although psychologically it creates the illusion for them that because they're not dressing provocatively or getting drunk they're not in danger of being raped. Nothing could be further from the truth.

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
I hate this idea that women are always the victims.

Let me give you a chance here. If a woman is going grocery shopping when she gets off work and she is raped on the short walk home, is she a victim?

If a woman goes to a bar and has one drink and dances with a few guys and on her way to her car, she is raped, is she a victim?

We women have ways to rise above being a victim.

What does that mean? At 17, I was raped by a trusted friend (my friend's father). Was I a victim? Should I have known better than to spend the night at her house?

I was a victim of rape. Do I carry it around and hate men and make myself a victim of every situation? No. Do I feel like a "victim of life"? No. But I was a victim of rape. I am a survivor.

What do you mean, "women are not always the victims"? Sometimes they're responsible for their rape? Please elaborate in hopes that some of us can understand where you're coming from.

Your posts are right on point. The OP's posts carry a strong subtext of woman-hating and woman-blaming. Anyone who doubts that should go back and read the first post on this thread. She (if the OP is really a woman as claimed) declares that women are, by nature, victims and hates them (and herself, if she is one) for it. The OP has also declared that this will never change. The real intent of the OP's posts is not to tell women how to protect themselves, as she now claims, but to blame women for being raped and causing problems for the rapists. I suspect that the OP is either not a woman or has a male family member or friend who was charged with or convicted of rape. A woman who truly felt that women are perpetual victims would be railing against the society that creates that situation not ranting about the poor men who are (unjustly, she claims) convicted of rape.

Uh no. If you want to try to analyze people, go back to psychology. You've got it all wrong. Women are by nature 'victims' because they are easy to prey on.
www.rccmsc.org...
States that 80% of rapes are to people who are under the age of 30. In that, 16-19 are the highest risk. Uhm, those are party and experimentation years. 16-18 high school parties. 19, first college parties. Let's look at some cases.
2012- Stuebenville, Ohio.
June - Vanderbilt University.
The rape happened precisely because alcohol was involved. They were easy to prey on and overpower. In our culture, those who were blaming the victim would say that she invited men to rape her because she got so drunk in public that she blacked out. I'm not saying that, I'm acknowledging that a large portion of rapes between 16-19 year olds include alcohol, and because of that, parents need to step up and watch their kids. Alcohol needs to be harder for teenagers to get, and maybe it's a possibility that due to the alarming amount of stories coming out about rape involving alcohol, that maybe women should avoid getting # faced in public. Because guess what both stories have in common?
Adults tried to cover it up. What does that say about the adults in our culture? Serena Williams got a lot of hate when she voiced her opinion on Stuebenville. She questioned why the girl was so drunk she couldn't remember. For a society that teaches young girls to be aware, there sure are a lot of girls doing the thing they shouldn't be. Think about it. It could have been much, much worse. When a female gets drunk, danger lurks at every corner. Why would a girl put themselves in a harmful situation KNOWING that something bad could happen?
That's all I'm saying. I agree with the interview, but I disagree with this quote. People against rape culture say everyday that men should change. Men should not rape. I've read it numerous times in this thread. And I agree with that. But I also think that women need to let go of this idea that they are being blamed, and rise above being a victim. We could save a lot of females the pain of being a victim if people would drop the 'victim-blaming' card, and acknowledge the similarities between some cases, and educate each other about it. Maybe it's high time that while we start persecuting rapists, we also tell women that SOME of their behavior isn't acceptable, because it puts them at risk for much more than being raped.

No one not once, has said that men are being unjustifiably persecuted, other than in the case of the women just being ashamed of saying yes. If a women has sex with a man willingly the night before and in the morning looks over and gawks in shame, and cried rape... The male is being unjustifiably persecuted. If you do not agree, please crawl back under your rock.

pubs.niaaa.nih.gov...
states that " This work was supported by a grant to Dr. Abbey from the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism.
Conservative estimates of sexual assault prevalence suggest that 25 percent of American women have experienced sexual assault, including rape. Approximately one-half of those cases involve alcohol consumption by the perpetrator, victim, or both. Alcohol contributes to sexual assault through multiple pathways, often exacerbating existing risk factors. Beliefs about alcohol’s effects on sexual and aggressive behavior, stereotypes about drinking women, and alcohol’s effects on cognitive and motor skills contribute to alcohol-involved sexual assault. " Oh what do you know.. One half of the 25% of American women sexual assault included the consumption of alcohol.

Like I said, maybe the prevention of rape is now a matter of changing behavior of all men and some women. If this was a perfect world, boobs would not be used to sell everything from a bacon cheeseburger to soap. In a perfect world people would not try to cover up these cases. In a perfect world every aggressor would be put away. In a perfect world sex would not be used to sell everything from music to beer. But this isn't a perfect world and it's time we realize that.

Enjoy your state of perpetual victimhood and being a male-identified woman. See where it gets you. I note that you didn't pull up a profile of rapists just the victims.

Actually, the website that I pulled up first has information on both victims and the rapists. It has stats for both sides. But good try. And what the actual # does "male-identified woman" even mean? Lol. Oh lawdy.

But you didn't quote the stats on the rapists. Once again, your focus is on blaming the women. In psychological terms, you identify with the aggressor in order to avoid being a victim. You see women as perpetual victims, as you've stated, and understandably don't want to be one. Your psychological response to that is to identify with men. Your posts reek of it.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: Lyxdeslic

Still doesn't apply to the military. Your arguments are completely 100% invalidated by rape in the military.

Once again EVERYONE agrees women should be careful. We are all aware that some women who get raped are not being careful. Some women lie about rape.

This does not invalidate the responsibility of men and women both to report and not cover up. The #1 issue with rape is that the culture of power of men promotes rape and protects rapists.

In the personal case I mentioned how can you explain away the fact that he was caught red handed and NOT EVEN SLAPPED ON THE WRIST. His mother and father and members of the towns government and education institutions covered it up. This sends the message that rape is fine as long as its not obvious and violent.

More importantly please address rape of women in the military. You can't argue they are defenseless, careless, or slutty. It's a widespread problem which, by necessity of the level of control and oversight in the US military, requires a male dominated culture of cover ups.

I'll say it again and hopefully this time you can understand (doubtful since every men's rights advocate whether female or.male is notoriously close minded). This problem can not be fixed by the actions of POTENTIAL victims. No one is suggesting that murderers are inevitable so you must be militantly armed and aware at all times. Yes murder happens because since people are crazy but it's a rarity in modern America thanks to strong response from the judicial/police system in preventing it. Why can't we apply the same principles to rape? Legal accountability and a culture of reporting rape as the awful crime it is. If your friend murdered a woman in cold blood most people would turn the friend in. Most people will not report their friends for rape.

As Jon Stewart says it's mind boggling that everyone ALWAYS discusses what women should do but NEVER what men should do.

Congratulations on missing the entire point of the discussion to focus on a single quote that you used ENTIRELY out of context. The quote amusingly enough negates your points. You are all telling about how women shouldn't get drunk just like Stewart points out is the norm but the mere SUGGESTION that men do the same is wrong to you.

That is literally the TEXTBOOK DEFINITION of a double standard. You all say "women spoke be cautious and not get drunk" but when one guy says quite reasonably the exact same thing but with the word "women" replaced with "men" it's terribly wrong and silly. It's a shame human beings are so good at turning off the rational part of their brain for the emotional.

I agree with everything you've said in this post. There's a tremendous problem with men condoning rape committed by other men and there's a tremendous problem with male-identified women blaming women for being raped and making excuses for the men. It's as though these women think they'll get an immunity badge to wear that will protect them. I know that logically it makes no sense although psychologically it creates the illusion for them that because they're not dressing provocatively or getting drunk they're not in danger of being raped. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Yes. Because saying that everyone is responsible for their own actions and that we as a group of people need to all make changes means that we're making excuses for men. No. It means that a lot of changes need to be made on all ends. God, you cannot reason with some people.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
I hate this idea that women are always the victims.

Let me give you a chance here. If a woman is going grocery shopping when she gets off work and she is raped on the short walk home, is she a victim?

If a woman goes to a bar and has one drink and dances with a few guys and on her way to her car, she is raped, is she a victim?

We women have ways to rise above being a victim.

What does that mean? At 17, I was raped by a trusted friend (my friend's father). Was I a victim? Should I have known better than to spend the night at her house?

I was a victim of rape. Do I carry it around and hate men and make myself a victim of every situation? No. Do I feel like a "victim of life"? No. But I was a victim of rape. I am a survivor.

What do you mean, "women are not always the victims"? Sometimes they're responsible for their rape? Please elaborate in hopes that some of us can understand where you're coming from.

Your posts are right on point. The OP's posts carry a strong subtext of woman-hating and woman-blaming. Anyone who doubts that should go back and read the first post on this thread. She (if the OP is really a woman as claimed) declares that women are, by nature, victims and hates them (and herself, if she is one) for it. The OP has also declared that this will never change. The real intent of the OP's posts is not to tell women how to protect themselves, as she now claims, but to blame women for being raped and causing problems for the rapists. I suspect that the OP is either not a woman or has a male family member or friend who was charged with or convicted of rape. A woman who truly felt that women are perpetual victims would be railing against the society that creates that situation not ranting about the poor men who are (unjustly, she claims) convicted of rape.

Uh no. If you want to try to analyze people, go back to psychology. You've got it all wrong. Women are by nature 'victims' because they are easy to prey on.
www.rccmsc.org...
States that 80% of rapes are to people who are under the age of 30. In that, 16-19 are the highest risk. Uhm, those are party and experimentation years. 16-18 high school parties. 19, first college parties. Let's look at some cases.
2012- Stuebenville, Ohio.
June - Vanderbilt University.
The rape happened precisely because alcohol was involved. They were easy to prey on and overpower. In our culture, those who were blaming the victim would say that she invited men to rape her because she got so drunk in public that she blacked out. I'm not saying that, I'm acknowledging that a large portion of rapes between 16-19 year olds include alcohol, and because of that, parents need to step up and watch their kids. Alcohol needs to be harder for teenagers to get, and maybe it's a possibility that due to the alarming amount of stories coming out about rape involving alcohol, that maybe women should avoid getting # faced in public. Because guess what both stories have in common?
Adults tried to cover it up. What does that say about the adults in our culture? Serena Williams got a lot of hate when she voiced her opinion on Stuebenville. She questioned why the girl was so drunk she couldn't remember. For a society that teaches young girls to be aware, there sure are a lot of girls doing the thing they shouldn't be. Think about it. It could have been much, much worse. When a female gets drunk, danger lurks at every corner. Why would a girl put themselves in a harmful situation KNOWING that something bad could happen?
That's all I'm saying. I agree with the interview, but I disagree with this quote. People against rape culture say everyday that men should change. Men should not rape. I've read it numerous times in this thread. And I agree with that. But I also think that women need to let go of this idea that they are being blamed, and rise above being a victim. We could save a lot of females the pain of being a victim if people would drop the 'victim-blaming' card, and acknowledge the similarities between some cases, and educate each other about it. Maybe it's high time that while we start persecuting rapists, we also tell women that SOME of their behavior isn't acceptable, because it puts them at risk for much more than being raped.

No one not once, has said that men are being unjustifiably persecuted, other than in the case of the women just being ashamed of saying yes. If a women has sex with a man willingly the night before and in the morning looks over and gawks in shame, and cried rape... The male is being unjustifiably persecuted. If you do not agree, please crawl back under your rock.

pubs.niaaa.nih.gov...
states that " This work was supported by a grant to Dr. Abbey from the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism.
Conservative estimates of sexual assault prevalence suggest that 25 percent of American women have experienced sexual assault, including rape. Approximately one-half of those cases involve alcohol consumption by the perpetrator, victim, or both. Alcohol contributes to sexual assault through multiple pathways, often exacerbating existing risk factors. Beliefs about alcohol’s effects on sexual and aggressive behavior, stereotypes about drinking women, and alcohol’s effects on cognitive and motor skills contribute to alcohol-involved sexual assault. " Oh what do you know.. One half of the 25% of American women sexual assault included the consumption of alcohol.

Like I said, maybe the prevention of rape is now a matter of changing behavior of all men and some women. If this was a perfect world, boobs would not be used to sell everything from a bacon cheeseburger to soap. In a perfect world people would not try to cover up these cases. In a perfect world every aggressor would be put away. In a perfect world sex would not be used to sell everything from music to beer. But this isn't a perfect world and it's time we realize that.

Enjoy your state of perpetual victimhood and being a male-identified woman. See where it gets you. I note that you didn't pull up a profile of rapists just the victims.

Actually, the website that I pulled up first has information on both victims and the rapists. It has stats for both sides. But good try. And what the actual # does "male-identified woman" even mean? Lol. Oh lawdy.

But you didn't quote the stats on the rapists. Once again, your focus is on blaming the women. In psychological terms, you identify with the aggressor in order to avoid being a victim. You see women as perpetual victims, as you've stated, and understandably don't want to be one. Your psychological response to that is to identify with men. Your posts reek of it.

Because everyone knows the stats on rapists. This post isn't about the rapists. It's what females can do to avoid being raped. Specifically how they act in public.