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originally posted by: Cuervo
a reply to: Lyxdeslic
Because it is not a woman's responsibility to prevent rape. She shouldn't have to.
If a woman got black-out drunk, dressed scantily, and danced provocatively every single night for her entire life and she even once got raped, it would not be her fault. Rape is the fault of the rapist, no matter what.
originally posted by: Answer
originally posted by: Cuervo
a reply to: Lyxdeslic
Because it is not a woman's responsibility to prevent rape. She shouldn't have to.
If a woman got black-out drunk, dressed scantily, and danced provocatively every single night for her entire life and she even once got raped, it would not be her fault. Rape is the fault of the rapist, no matter what.
I agree.
I've been ridiculously drunk many times in the presence of ridiculously drunk or even passed-out women. I've never once taken advantage of the situation because even super drunk me knows that it's rape.
Where I disagree with the premise is when a woman gets drunk, has sex willingly, and then claims rape when they decide that it was a drunken mistake. THAT muddies the issue and causes people to not believe women with legitimate cases of rape.
The line is simple: If she is drunk but throws herself on a man and says yes, it's not rape. If she's passed out, never showed interest in having sex with the particular man, or has lost control of her physical capacities and can't even say yes or no, it's rape.
originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
I said numerous times that it isn't their fault either way. It just doesn't make sense to me that men (No matter what the situation is for that matter) must take responsibility for their actions, but women don't. And I'm saying this as a situation outside of rape, as well. Women are always made to be victims. (I'm a woman, myself, and I've had it happen to me.)
It's the same thing with physical abuse, like hitting and what not. A woman gets abused, and they blame the man. A man gets abused and they still blame the man. How is that equal at all? A man gets drunk and gets into trouble, and he's blamed. A woman gets into trouble while drunk and they blame the people around her "Why didn't you watch her? Why'd you allow her to leave?" Why is it societies responsibility to watch over women? Why can't women take responsibility for herself? Why can't women be 'smart enough' for lack of better wording to be like, "Getting drunk in public isn't a very good idea for anyone," and etc?
originally posted by: Answer
originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
I said numerous times that it isn't their fault either way. It just doesn't make sense to me that men (No matter what the situation is for that matter) must take responsibility for their actions, but women don't. And I'm saying this as a situation outside of rape, as well. Women are always made to be victims. (I'm a woman, myself, and I've had it happen to me.)
It's the same thing with physical abuse, like hitting and what not. A woman gets abused, and they blame the man. A man gets abused and they still blame the man. How is that equal at all? A man gets drunk and gets into trouble, and he's blamed. A woman gets into trouble while drunk and they blame the people around her "Why didn't you watch her? Why'd you allow her to leave?" Why is it societies responsibility to watch over women? Why can't women take responsibility for herself? Why can't women be 'smart enough' for lack of better wording to be like, "Getting drunk in public isn't a very good idea for anyone," and etc?
Women should be responsible but being drunk in public should not make them targets of rape. Period.
It's like saying "well of course your kid got kidnapped, you took them to a playground and turned your head for 5 seconds." Kidnappers are vile despicable human beings just like rapists. Losing your wits for a little while shouldn't turn you into a victim.
originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
"Nobody says, hey, men should not drink. It's all about women must dress differently. Women must walk differently. Women must drink differently. Why are we not able to hold men to account for this behavior?"
viralwomen.com...
I do not blame victims, but I have a problem with this quote from Jon Stewarts interview with Kirsten Gillibrand. Why is it that if men are drunk they are held responsible for their actions, but women are not? I know that the vast majority of drunken rapes happen between a sober man and a drunk woman... But could it be that if a woman was responsibly drinking than her abuse could be avoided? .
originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
That's another problem I have, too. Is that a woman can say, "I was drunk and raped." But she clearly said yes. That isn't rape and a man (or very seldom, woman) gets put away FOR YEARS because someone was too ashamed to admit they were irresponsibly drunk and had casual sex.
originally posted by: Tangerine
originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
"Nobody says, hey, men should not drink. It's all about women must dress differently. Women must walk differently. Women must drink differently. Why are we not able to hold men to account for this behavior?"
viralwomen.com...
I do not blame victims, but I have a problem with this quote from Jon Stewarts interview with Kirsten Gillibrand. Why is it that if men are drunk they are held responsible for their actions, but women are not? I know that the vast majority of drunken rapes happen between a sober man and a drunk woman... But could it be that if a woman was responsibly drinking than her abuse could be avoided? .
A woman could be drunk every minute of her life and no rape would occur until a rapist decided to rape her. You've got your head seriously wedged.
originally posted by: Tangerine
originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
That's another problem I have, too. Is that a woman can say, "I was drunk and raped." But she clearly said yes. That isn't rape and a man (or very seldom, woman) gets put away FOR YEARS because someone was too ashamed to admit they were irresponsibly drunk and had casual sex.
There's a theme to your posts and we all know what it is. The question is why you're advertising it.
originally posted by: GENERAL EYES
If a young woman plans to out and get "wasted", then she should make sure to have a designated driver and personal bodyguard/babysitter to help her get home safely when she becomes incapacitated....instead on naively believing everyone out there of the male persuasion is a knight in shining armor.
Time and time again it has been proven this is not always the case.
I'm not victim blaming here - I'm a woman myself and been through more than I care to share - but when you know the potential to be raped exists, why on earth would any female prefer to stick her head in the sand and continue protesting that they have no responsibility whatsoever to protect themselves from potential predators?
Until rapists no longer feel the need to rape, we have to accept that it is our duty - as parents, females, concerned citizens and as a society - to not turn a blind eye to the very real threat of sexual predators and adjust our behavior accordingly.
originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
I just stated that we're obviously never going to be able to change rapists, or even get rid of them so women need to be responsible. We can't teach people not to rape, because if they want to rape someone they will. Some people are just born or turned into sick, evil individuals. So because of this, women need to be responsible and learn how they might be able to avoid these encounters.
originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
I just stated that we're obviously never going to be able to change rapists, or even get rid of them so women need to be responsible. We can't teach people not to rape, because if they want to rape someone they will. Some people are just born or turned into sick, evil individuals. So because of this, women need to be responsible and learn how they might be able to avoid these encounters.
I can hardly believe what I'm reading... especially from someone who says they're a woman. WHY can't we teach men not to rape??? WHY can't we change rapists??? You seem to think that we can't do anything about the rapist, so we'll make the victim responsible???? That's crazy talk! Absolutely insane!
Look, I actually AM a woman. And I have been raped. And I AM responsible for myself, but I"m not, in ANY way responsible for the rape.
I'm very uncomfortable with the way you talk about rape and want to hold the woman responsible, and then in another breath, you're talking about women who are not raped, but claim it... as if the two are related. That's two VERY different things and are not to be confused with each other.
Jon Stewart is absolutely right.
originally posted by: CynConcepts
a reply to: Lyxdeslic
Before I read further posts, I wanted to respond. A few years back, I was 'online' dating. I met up with a guy at a bar, and yes, we had threw back some drinks. He wanted to take me out that night to a 'concert'! Admittedly, I had a few drinks so I decided to throw caution to the wind. We had 60 miles to get there and 'fortunately' his condo was on the way since his 'tickets' were there. At his place, he showed me around and since there was a couple of hours before the concert would start, he made us some drinks out of my sight. When he arrived with the drinks I set mine on the coffee table and did not drink it, immediately. When he set his glass down, I switched them. We had a nice conversation and drink, until he became very ill. Sweating profusely and nauseous. Uh huh. Needless, to say, he was quite upset. No concert that night. I locked myself in his guest room and pretended I was disheartened that he took ill. He even had the nerve to accuse me between vomiting that I had drugged him! That really confirmed to me that is exactly what he tried to do to me. Lol. The next morning he was sober and apologetic, gave me a ride home. Naturally, we never dated again. Why didn't I report him? Seriously, I had no proof. Survival instincts kicked in and I just wanted to make my way home safe.
My whole point being that even if I drunk alcohol and threw caution to the wind, I took responsibility. I basically f*cked up and knew it! Sure in a perfect world, one should not have to worry about rape, but seriously, that is fantasy! I accept the responsibilty that I made my own choices, starting with drinking too much and putting myself in harms way.
Don't get me wrong, I know what rape is all about. I had been raped as a child. In some cases, it is unavoidable and the victim is truly a victim. But when a woman chooses to loosen up with alcohol or drugs of her own choosing...she has made her own choices. In my case above, I made the choice to drink. Was he a scumbag, yes. Yet, if I had not thrown caution to the wind...I would never had found myself in such a bad situation. Women should not be victimized, instead they should be educated. Equality is knowing the difference between fantasy and reality.
originally posted by: Cuervo
a reply to: Lyxdeslic
Because it is not a woman's responsibility to prevent rape. She shouldn't have to.
If a woman got black-out drunk, dressed scantily, and danced provocatively every single night for her entire life and she even once got raped, it would not be her fault. Rape is the fault of the rapist, no matter what.