The ways of sacrifice; Abraham and Isaac

originally posted by: Akragon
Furthermore, the very idea that sin can be resolved by placing it on another, and spilling said beings blood is rather disgusting and sadistic in itself

Again, this is a piece of the jigsaw to be looked at another time.
Though I've hinted at an answer in the comments at the end of the OP and all through the "God's law" series about the "gradual teaching process".

Angels stopped him, not this god

Angels are only the "messengers of God" and don't act against his will.
You might as well say "That was not the President speaking on television, it was just his television image". It comes to the same thing.

a reply to: DISRAELI

That was my point...

Angels stopped him, which was defying this gods will...

So they were not his angels... these angels came from the true Father not this false god

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: windword
The Jews have the same text of Genesis, and they did not get it from the Christian church.

The Septuagint contained the texts found in the Book of Jubilees up until approximately 400 AD.

a reply to: Akragon
They were not defying God's will.
They were carrying out his will, which was to stop proceedings once the intended purpose had been achieved.
They were no more acting independently of God than a letter acts independently of the writer of the letter. They are not powers in their own right, just tools and voices.
I draw your attention to the wording of the countermanding order; "You have not withheld your son FROM ME". In other words, the one who countermands the order acknowledges himself as the one who gave the order in the first place. They are one and the same.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I agree with Akragon. He nailed my thoughts.

The lesson was obey or die. Or, was it entertainment for a psychopath desert God? One, terrified and jumping at shadows by even mention of other God's.


Step 3 - Watch for a constant need for stimulation. Stillness, quiet and reflection are not things embraced by psychopaths. They need constant entertainment and activity.

How many more steps to spot a psychopath match, just for this fable alone? That story sure does qualify as a match for me.

Now that i think about it, that Sacrificial system sure does match too.

a reply to: windword
And you are suggesting that the Jews cut down the text of Genesis to make it conform with the version preferred by the Catholic church?
This strikes me as very implausible.
Have you checked this theory with some actual Jews, to see what they think of it?

a reply to: DISRAELI

I think they edited the texts to oppress others, and please their own sadistic tendencies. Think about it. Rivers of blood flowed from the temple in its heyday. Imagine, the sounds of a symphony of death as animals are brutally killed for 'sin.' imagine the smells of rotting dead flesh.

For bonus points. Plenty of money to be made, to boot!

Horrifyingly sadistic.

Sadly, the most oppressed, are those that still follow him and try to use this 'lesson' as a moral compass.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Akragon
They were not defying God's will.
They were carrying out his will, which was to stop proceedings once the intended purpose had been achieved.
They were no more acting independently of God than a letter acts independently of the writer of the letter. They are not powers in their own right, just tools and voices.
I draw your attention to the wording of the countermanding order; "You have not withheld your son FROM ME". In other words, the one who countermands the order acknowledges himself as the one who gave the order in the first place. They are one and the same.

I know the story all too well... The idea you're trying to convey is Abraham's obedience to this god...

Where as what im saying, is that IF this were the true God... such a request would never have been asked in the first place...

Again as I've said on the other page... this god demands blood...

And no matter what the bible or any other book tells you... One CAN NOT place their sins on another being...

A mans sin is his own...

This idea is something that came from the OT... Jesus managed to skip over it... and was reinstated by Paul

It was a lie from the beginning... Just as the so called god of the OT was a liar/murderer from the beginning...

originally posted by: Akragon
Where as what im saying, is that IF this were the true God... such a request would never have been asked in the first place...

You've already identified the one who countermanded the order as the true God.
I have now pointed out that the one who countermanded the order identifies himself as the one who gave the order.
If A=B and B=C, then A=C. The one who gave the order must be the true God.

And no matter what the bible or any other book tells you... One CAN NOT place their sins on another being...

And as I've said myself on the other page, I'm leaving that issue for a different occasion.
One piece of the jigsaw at a time.

a reply to: DISRAELI

You cannot have your cake and eat it to.

Your god is either a psychopath, a small desert war god, or not. He is one who ordered racism, genocide, tribialism, xenophobia, ruling with terror, and commanded innocent animals slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands.

That is the puzzle you speak of in a nutshell. And no wishful thinking will change that image of that brutal totalitarian desert god.

I think this story is just one jigsaw piece of the whole picture too. One small piece showing YHWH is HaSatan. Not the True God.

a reply to: DISRAELI

technically if you read the text it wasn't "God" who countermanded said order as you put it...

And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

SO Abraham didn't withhold his son from this angel because he feared God...

Sounds like an angel gave this order in the first place... but words tend to get flipped around...

Similar to what happened at Sinai... One minute the bush was "an angel of the lord" and a few verses later its God...

In any case we're dealing with a confused group of fearful people... easily manipulated by beings with more power then humans...

This is simply not a case for proving this so called god is the real one... neither is anything in the OT for that matter...

a reply to: Not Authorized
The options you give are not the only ones that are possible, so you're presenting a false dilemma.
Let's wait and see what the jigsaw looks like when it's been completed.

a reply to: Akragon
And as I've pointed out, an "angel" is nothing more than a voice message.
You might as well quibble about whether a written order comes from the letter itself or from the person who wrote it.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: windword
And you are suggesting that the Jews cut down the text of Genesis to make it conform with the version preferred by the Catholic church?
This strikes me as very implausible.
Have you checked this theory with some actual Jews, to see what they think of it?

I can neither confirm nor deny any reasons why Jews chose to eliminate some of their scripture in circa 400 any more than I explain why 72 versions of the Septuagint were needed in circa 200 BCE.

I can confirm, however, that Jewish scholars tend to see their scriptures more and more as allegorical while Christians tend to see Hebrew scripture as literal. Go figure!

a reply to: DISRAELI

You are the one with the dilemma. You have to find a way to support a God that calls for xenophobia, sacrificing human beings, including people's own children. Condoning intolerance, genocide, murder, and racial superiority.

This is known as being a spin doctor.

Good luck with your puzzle. The picture is quite clear in my mind. I can't wait to get started working on it.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Well when you're dealing with angels from two different beings it can get confusing I suppose...

I always feel bad for people like you... You write excellent threads...

its just a shame that so many are deceived by this so called god of OT...

Why can you not see the truth through the veil.... sigh

a reply to: Akragon
There is no reason to bring in two different beings, since the one who speaks at the end confirms himself as the one who was acting all the way through.
That's just "multiplying entities" and causing unnecessary confusion.

a reply to: Not Authorized
Take a look through my series on "God's law", which deals with the social laws of the Pentateuch.
That will give you some insight into my methods of working, and how I might propose to deal with the rest.

a reply to: DISRAELI

The being you're speaking of is the author of confusion...

That is the whole idea... as I've said... a liar/murderer from the beginning...

this god can't even get his commandments straight... but he/she/it has done an excellent job deceiving the world

Until this time when the truth is coming to the surface once again... and i'll bet hes pissed

a reply to: DISRAELI

All fraudulent. Jeremiah 8:8. The law was changed by the lying scribes.

Isaiah 30 hammers this home.

I can make up a set of laws too. Fiction is fiction.