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The ways of sacrifice; Abraham and Isaac

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posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 05:21 PM
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originally posted by: Nechash
If God is a monster who would sincerely want a father to murder his own child

As I was explaining to another poster, you were missing the point here.
The command was NOT sincere, but given for the deliberate purpose of NOT carrying it through.
It was a way of presenting the message "I do not want you to sacrifice yor children" which was much more dramatic, and therefore much more memorable, than simply saying so.


I think the story of Isaac was either an allegory meaning that Abraham was willing to lay down his talents and future impact on the world to God, or it was a test by God to see if Abraham was independent enough to think for himself.

Your first option is reasonably close to what I said myself in the OP. Making a self-commitment in trust and obedience.
The second option cannot be right, because Abraham does no independent thinking at any stage.
When he makes preparation for the sacrifice, he is acting in obedience to God's voice.
When he stops in the middle and takes the ram instead, he is acting in obedience to God's voice.
Obedience to God's voice is the whole point of the story.

In fact, the message here, and the message in the Bible in general, is dependence, not independence.
If you want independence, you will have to find it in another religion.
But you should take note; if it is the case that we did not make ourselves, then dependence will be the recognition of reality, while independence will be a self-deceiving illusion.




posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 06:20 PM
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I wonder how many people go to jail for murdering their children with the defense "God told me to do it." So I guess we should start believing them, or start questioning the validity and motives of this allegedly loving God.

I'm sorry OP I do not agree with you but thanks for sharing your viewpoint just the same.


edit on 20-9-2014 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 06:26 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

Well, Abraham obeyed God's voice and God used him for whatever purpose he did, but what if he hadn't obeyed, how would God have used him then? The assumption that God was putting Abraham into a right/wrong scenario may be misguided. Perhaps he had many doors prepared for Abraham and how he chose to proceed with that lesson determined which path he was set forward on.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 06:36 PM
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a reply to: Nechash
In that eventuality, I think, God would have started looking around for someone else to be "father of many nations", deciding that he had picked the wrong man.
But Klassified suggested that God already knew what Abraham would do, and the lesson was for Abraham's benefit rather than his own. I think this may be right.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 06:40 PM
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a reply to: WakeUpBeer
In the first place, as I have said before, this is a story about a child NOT being killed. The whole point is that the child is not killed.
In any case, your logic assumes a choice between "All alleged messages from God are genuine" and "No alleged messages from God are genuine". If the actual situation is "Some alleged messages from God are genuine and some are not", then your dilemma doesn't apply.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 07:12 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

I am familiar with the story, we just interpret its meaning differently. It is great that God didn't actually want Abraham to sacrifice his son. The fact that he would ever suggest it to begin with is one of the things that troubles me. For the sake of discussion I will entertain the belief in Yahweh as a real God. We should then assume that some messages from God are genuine and some are not. How do we identify between the two? Sure in some cases it would be obvious the killer is using "God told me to" as an excuse. What about when it isn't obvious? What about when it's someone who truly believes they heard/felt God speaking to them? They know they heard God, and they listened. To an observer this person would seem disturbed in some way. But should we not give them the benefit of the doubt? Or are we going to say something like, "they weren't real Christians" or say something about Satan having a hand in it? That's the real problem though isn't it. How do you know? Today, or two thousand years ago. God may not have wanted Abraham's son but there are other instances of human sacrifice in the Bible. Such as the story of Jephthah. Why didn't God step in there and stop him from sacrificing his daughter? It's because he doesn't have any problems with ritual human sacrifice. *waves a red flag*


edit on 20-9-2014 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 09:21 PM
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originally posted by: Not Authorized
a reply to: DISRAELI

Shall we compare and contrast how do identify a psychopath with scripture, and YHWH's words and actions?

I think that would be a magnificent thread. Perhaps I can gather all the data, and post my findings. Put my ex fundamentalist information to good use.

It wasn't a lesson. It was the command of a brutal desert god, whom has no place in enlightened civilization.


Actually I've been working on a thread like that for the past week or so lol. Should be up sooner or later. Don't want to miss anything after all.


edit on 20-9-2014 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 09:41 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
A sadistic God would have allowed the son to be sacrificed anyway; this story is intended to have a very different lesson.


(Meant to tack this on at the end of my post to you)



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 09:57 PM
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a reply to: WakeUpBeer

I look forward to it. I have lots I can share relating to that subject. :-)



edit on 20-9-2014 by Not Authorized because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 03:28 AM
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originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
The fact that he would ever suggest it to begin with is one of the things that troubles me.

At the time when the story is set,the sacrifice of children was normal, and remained normal for the followers of Molech until at least the time of the Babylonian conquest.
So part of the purpose of making the suggestion is putting an end to the practice. It is a method which leaves a lasting impression and it works (as long as people are not led away to following other gods).

I wrote a supplementary post on Jephtah's daughter, which hasn't been added in because the thread got too busy. I must go and seek it out.



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 12:27 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

So child sacrifice was normal to your God as well? After all, he ordered his premiere follower to participate in such evil. And if the New Testament is true as edited, then he arranged pre meditated murder against his own son as well.

I see evil. I have a better concept of right and wrong than a old tribal desert God.

Tell me again, why would I want to worship a God, created by desert madmen with a penchant for insanity? Also, what other gods? Does this mean others exist, like for the gentiles exclusively? Maybe the remaining 69 other gods for the nations in deuteronomy 32? Who might they be? What did they say about YHWH?

I'm leaning towards yes for my own question, as it looks like another God had ownership of the area first. Those monuments raises the question if YHWH was a usurper God with a false claim. After all, Jeremiah 8:8 is pretty clear.

How about us gentiles just worship El Elyon, if any, from the early Jewish pantheon, not YHWH? The Gentiles don't need him. After all, YHWH hates us. We have our own other gods, far more peaceful to choose from.

Maybe the real lesson is from the True God, pointing out YHWH is an insane God. Never follow him.

edit on 21-9-2014 by Not Authorized because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 12:31 PM
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originally posted by: Not Authorized
So child sacrifice was normal to your God as well?

It was normal over Near Eastern culture in general, which is why this action was taken to express the need to stop the practice.
I said that at the beginning of the OP and have been saying it ever since.

I don't deal with the points not relating to the topic of the thread.



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 12:35 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

My point was I think this lesson is from the True God, pointing out YHWH is an insane imposter God. Hypocritical too. I'm going to tell you not to do it, by ordering you to do it first hand. Was just not commanding Abraham not to commit child sacrifice enough? Is he not God? Why the drama? After all, Abraham had to bargain for Lot's life. Could he not just have said, hey, no child sacrifice or you'll get yours like Sodom?

Something is fishy.

Ignoring my points, will not make them go away. Anyone who looks at this story objectively can see the insanity firsthand. This raises questions. Why can't you answer them?
edit on 21-9-2014 by Not Authorized because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-9-2014 by Not Authorized because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 12:42 PM
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a reply to: Not Authorized
"Stick to the topic of the thread" is the standard rule on ATS.
I know trolls like to ignore the rule, but that is all the more reason for maintaining it.
All my threads are defined with a carefully limited theme, and I stick to it.
On-topic, please; that is the ATS way.


edit on 21-9-2014 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 12:44 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

I'm discussing the lesson, from the gentile perspective. My own observation and opinion of said lesson. Twice I have made that clear. Does only your opinion of said lesson count?

I have questions about your lesson as told.



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 12:45 PM
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a reply to: Not Authorized
You were trying to draw the discussion into areas outside the passage.
Those were the ones I was not going to touch.



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 12:52 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI




It was normal over Near Eastern culture in general, which is why this action was taken to express the need to stop the practice.


I don't know how normal it was in Egypt, Greece, Persia or Canaan to murder a people's own children, but it was certainly normal for the Israelites under Moses' tutelage and according to the commandments of the deity claiming to be the God of Abraham.



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 12:54 PM
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a reply to: windword
The OT complains on many occasions that children are being sacrificed to the god Molech. The Romans report similar things of Carthage.
The OT is also full of laws forbidding the practice.




edit on 21-9-2014 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 12:55 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

So, your intention was a sermon, not a discussion? Discussions have questions and answers. Am I not allowed to ask them? Why not?

I am asking questions about your lesson, and sharing my own conclusion reached by evaluation of the same passage. I am evaluating the ‘way of sacrifice‘, as you posted. This is almost the same methodology that flat earthers employed when it was discovered the world was round.

I hold the opinion it is incorrect and requires evaluation in a modern society. So, lets discuss using all modern knowledge.
edit on 21-9-2014 by Not Authorized because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 12:57 PM
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a reply to: Not Authorized
As I said in my previous reply to your previous post, you were trying to draw the discussion into areas outside the passage, and I was refusing to get drawn into them.
I can repeat that statement as many times as you like.




edit on 21-9-2014 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)







 
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