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The ways of sacrifice; Abraham and Isaac

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posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 03:40 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
People are normally supposed to work out the right thing to do from the information they've already got, and they do make mistakes. Jephthah comes into that category.


So what information do you think Jephtah had that lead him to conclude God would want a sacrifice? Oh and as far as the context of the story goes, it was a deal he made with God. In exchange for sacrificing the first thing coming out of his house God lead him to victory against the Ammonites.


edit on 21-9-2014 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)




posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 03:40 PM
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a reply to: WakeUpBeer
Yep.
The Bible never claims that God interferes on the spot against each and every act that he considers wrong.
However much people want to insist that an omniscient or omnipotent God SHOULD behave like that, it is evidently not the way he works.
Obviously this incident was not one of the tiny minority of exceptions.



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 03:46 PM
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originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
So what information do you think Jephtah had that lead him to conclude God would want a sacrifice?

Obviously he was relying on the information that God normally wants people to keep their oaths.
Further information about his attitude to human sacrifice wasn't being taken into consideration.



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 03:49 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: WakeUpBeer
However much people want to insist that an omniscient or omnipotent God SHOULD behave like that, it is evidently not the way he works.


People want to insist that a God who is claimed to be perfect and flawless, loving and merciful. Pure and virtuous etc. Is inconsistent with what is recorded in the Bible. Which is suppose to be the inerrant word of God, or at the very least divinely inspired. A God who is willing to allow a man to sacrifice his daughter because of his own ignorance does not fit the bill of an all loving etc. God. If nothing else we can both agree Jephtah was an ignoramus.


edit on 21-9-2014 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 03:49 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

I interpret that slow message though the prophets as further proof of YHWH's insufficiency to make himself clear to his alleged creation. Or we can apply occam's razor, and realize that trickle was just simple textual editing by men, making up a God, just like them as they went.

I lean towards the latter.

Men, changing thier fictional god on a whim to fulfill political or war purposes, or promote racial superiority. Kind of like the writer of Isaiah. He claimed YHWH annointed a gentile in Isaiah 45. A gentile, who wrote in stone Marduk was most high, and thought himself to be the governor of the universe.

What the writer of Isaiah 45 didn't realize was Cyrus thought himself to be a god. So much for YHWH not sharing his glory with another. He claimed Cyrus was his doing. Oops. Guess the writer didn't know how to translate the Cyrus Cylinder.

Watching the dance of those refusing to see the editing and inconsistencies in said text is amusing.
edit on 21-9-2014 by Not Authorized because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 03:49 PM
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Double post. Deleted.
edit on 21-9-2014 by Not Authorized because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 03:51 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
So what information do you think Jephtah had that lead him to conclude God would want a sacrifice?

Obviously he was relying on the information that God normally wants people to keep their oaths.
Further information about his attitude to human sacrifice wasn't being taken into consideration.


Remember the context of the story. He made a deal with God. God was involved and agreed to the terms of the arrangement. Victory and the spoils of war in exchange for a sacrifice.
edit on 21-9-2014 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 03:51 PM
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originally posted by: Not Authorized
I interpret that slow message though the prophets as further proof of YHWH's insufficiency to make himself clear to his alleged creation.

Another explanation is their slowness of hearing and "hardness of heart", as Jesus puts it.
That is why even human education is a process which takes many years, and not five minutes.



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 03:55 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

My God already put sense of right vs wrong inside consciousness itself. No education is needed. As it is being discovered today as being hardwired into our brains, and is called 'spoooky' by some of those researching it.

Or, do you not claim to have one? We all do already. YHWH, and his hatred, book, or worship, is not required to utilize it.
edit on 21-9-2014 by Not Authorized because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-9-2014 by Not Authorized because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 03:57 PM
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originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
Remember the context of the story. He made a deal with God. God was involved and agreed to the terms of the arrangement. Victory and the spoils of war in exchange for a sacrifice.

I think God responded favourably to the willingness to sacrifice.
As I suggested at the end of the OP, it is the will that he wants, and not the specific objects of sacrifice.

As for the detail, I remarked in my supplementary post that the oath ought to have been worded, or interpreted as if it had been worded, "I will sacrifice the first sacrifice-able thing that meets me".
I believe that God would have been satisfied with that, and would have said so if asked.



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 04:03 PM
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originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
A God who is willing to allow a man to sacrifice his daughter because of his own ignorance does not fit the bill of an all loving etc. God.

That is just a particularised version of the cliche generalised argument based on the existence of evil.
"A true God would instantly bring to an end all evil whatsoever- if he doesn't, there cannot be a true God".
To which I can only say that if there is a true God, he evidently chooses not to work like that. He is not prepared to live up to the definition which they have chosen for him.



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 04:08 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
I think God responded favourably to the willingness to sacrifice.
As I suggested at the end of the OP, it is the will that he wants, and not the specific objects of sacrifice.


Then wouldn't that make God irresponsible?

Let's say your hypothesis is correct. By responding favorably to Jephtah's willingness, what message did that send? What conclusions do you think Jephtah came to? Maybe that his God did indeed want the sacrifice?

God sure does like placing stumbling blocks in front of people!



As for the detail, I remarked in my supplementary post that the oath ought to have been worded, or interpreted as if it had been worded, "I will sacrifice the first sacrifice-able thing that meets me".
I believe that God would have been satisfied with that, and would have said so if asked.


Again, the context.

I believe you are feeling conflicted on the subject and see how a lot of the points raised by myself and others are worthy of consideration. It feels to me like you are grasping out for explanations that aren't there. Just my opinion though.



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 04:16 PM
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originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
"As I suggested at the end of the OP, it is the will that he wants, and not the specific objects of sacrifice."
Does that make him irresponsible?

No, I think it makes him a patient teacher, gradually weaning them away from the physical sacrifices of the OT to the "make yourself a living sacrifice" of the NT.
For the time being, it was part of the Israelite understanding that offering sacrifice was a way to please God.
The basic idea was right. It was just a question of gradually changing their idea of what "sacrifice" actually meant.


I believe you are feeling conflicted on the subject and see how a lot of the points raised by myself and others are worthy of consideration. It feels to me like you are grasping out for explanations that aren't there. Just my opinion though.

My supplementary post was written out and on hard-drive with the rest of my threads a good week before you and your friends started "raising points". In other words, my view was worked out already.


edit on 21-9-2014 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 04:30 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
No, I think it makes him a patient teacher, gradually weaning them away from the physical sacrifices of the OT to the "make yourself a living sacrifice" of the NT.
For the time being, it was part of the Israelite understanding that offering sacrifice was a way to please God.
The basic idea was right. It was just a question of radually changing their idea of what "sacrifice" actually meant.


Actually the more likely scenario is that as societies and cultures advance, so to do their moral standards and practices.


originally posted by: DISRAELI

I believe you are feeling conflicted on the subject and see how a lot of the points raised by myself and others are worthy of consideration. It feels to me like you are grasping out for explanations that aren't there. Just my opinion though.

My supplementary post was written out and on hard-drive with the rest of my threads a good week before you and your friends started "raising points". In other words, my view was worked out already.


Well maybe God is working his slow mysterious process on you. It's reasonable to assume that isn't it? Maybe God lead you to make this thread so he could show you the error of his ways. Jephtah view was worked out and it obviously turned out to be a mistake. Just saying!


edit on 21-9-2014 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 04:35 PM
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originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
Well maybe God is working his slow mysterious process on you. It's reasonable to assume that isn't it? Maybe God lead you to make this thread so he could show you the error of his ways.

Other threads on the subject of "sacrifice" are in the pipeline. Some already written. (Advertisement)



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 04:37 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

Ahhh. I see. Because we didn't see it earlier, we are all clearly in the wrong. How dare we ask questions and the motivations about a violent, and clearly malevolent paranoid desert God, worshipped by nomads. One who ordered child sacrifice directly once, premeditated human sacrifice with Jesus himself, accepted child sacrifice if it was given by oath, and was so obsessed with a women's hymen being intact, if the woman didn't bleed on the wedding night, she should be sacrificed by stoning to appease YHWH.

When the trial of Galileo commenced, and he was ordered to never share or teach his findings about Earth revolving around the Sun, it is rumored under his breath be said, "But it moves...."

Did truth win in the end with Galileo?
edit on 21-9-2014 by Not Authorized because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-9-2014 by Not Authorized because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 04:37 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
I think God responded favourably to the willingness to sacrifice.
As I suggested at the end of the OP, it is the will that he wants, and not the specific objects of sacrifice.


Then wouldn't that make God irresponsible?

Let's say your hypothesis is correct. By responding favorably to Jephtah's willingness, what message did that send? What conclusions do you think Jephtah came to? Maybe that his God did indeed want the sacrifice?

edit on 21-9-2014 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 04:45 PM
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No, I think it makes him a patient teacher, gradually weaning them away from the physical sacrifices of the OT to the "make yourself a living sacrifice" of the NT.
For the time being, it was part of the Israelite understanding that offering sacrifice was a way to please God.
(In other words, Jephthah ALREADY believed that sacrifice was the right thing to do. Going along with that idea doesn't amount to agreeing with the way Jephthah chose to carry out the promise)

As I suggested at the end of the OP, it is the will that he wants, and not the specific objects of sacrifice.

As for the detail, I remarked in my supplementary post that the oath ought to have been worded, or interpreted as if it had been worded, "I will sacrifice the first sacrifice-able thing that meets me".
I believe that God would have been satisfied with that, and would have said so if asked.



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 04:49 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

Now you're just acting like an apologist, and making excuses.
edit on 21-9-2014 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 04:50 PM
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a reply to: WakeUpBeer
I don't see "you are being an apologist" as a criticism.
It is a question of looking at the material with good-will instead of relentless hostiity.

P.S. cf next post.
edit on 21-9-2014 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



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