A Simple Question for ATS - Who is the Lord of the OT?

originally posted by: Akragon
I believe you have to look no further then the gnostic texts to find the obvious answer to that question...

That premise is flawed to put it mildly...

Makes about as much sense as looking to the MSM for the truth about whats happening in the world.

Or listening to politicians to learn the truth about politics.

One does not understand propaganda by STUDYING propaganda.

originally posted by: stupid girl
Most of the Apostlic letters that make up the last half of the New Testament were written with the intent to refute the increasing heresies of Gnosticism. The Nicene Creed was also written as a statement of faith based on the true Gospel Message as given by Jesus to the Apostles which was recorded for mankind in the 4 synoptic accounts that begin the New Testament. Many new believers were led astray by the Gnostic perversions of Jesus' message. That is why Jesus said to seek first the Kingdom. Men have the inherent desire to seek wisdom & knowledge first, which is the modus operandi of Gnosticism in & of itself.

So in essence, Gnostic beliefs are based on the opposite of what Jesus instructed those who follow Him to do. Gnostic beliefs go against the Truths revealed to us by Christ Himself through His Apostles. Thus His Apostles referred to Gnostic teachings as 'anti Christ'. Read the First Epistle of John (1 John, not the Gospel of John). The entire purpose of that Letter is centered on the subtle lies of Gnostic teachings. When he refers to 'anti Christs' in his letter, he is referring to Gnostic beliefs.

The New Age movement & those promulgated by the UFO contactee phenomenon are largely based on Gnosticism. All types of mysticism are respectively based on various mixtures of Kabbalah, Gnosticism & Eastern Philosophies. Which in turn, are all basically based on each other. We are not gods. And we are only one in Christ- not in Gaia, or Christ consciousness, or universal consciousness, or karma kundalini or the galactic federation of light, or Chaka Khan Shamalama Ding Dong. We are all unique and individual and we are each accountable for the choices we make during our lifetime here on earth.

a reply to: Murgatroid

Gnostic text are not even close to main stream brother...

You have no idea what you're talking about

IF anything what is considered "orthodox" would be mainstream..

a reply to: Akragon

Matthew 5:17-20

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

This was his view of the Torah, better known as the Law. He goes on to add the prophets. Both are part of the overall picture. We cannot take away the Law or the prophets, any more than we can take away the Lord. As little as we like from this only image of God by the nature of the Son in rebellion, we cannot remove it from the history. God takes the fallen Guardian Cherub of Ezekiel 28 and makes him the risen Redeemer. Otherwise, Jesus would not require baptism.

Matthew 3

13 At that time Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan River and wanted John to baptize him. 14 But John tried to stop him, saying, “Why do you come to me to be baptized? I need to be baptized by you!”

15 Jesus answered, “Let it be this way for now. We should do all things that are God’s will.” So John agreed to baptize Jesus.

16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he came up out of the water. Then heaven opened, and he saw God’s Spirit coming down on him like a dove. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love, and I am very pleased with him.”

This is the first time God mentioned his pride of the Son.

Matthew 8:17

This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and bore our diseases."

What infirmities? Ours! He had to fall to rise.

Why? We are all Him. He is all of us. We are from his seed, that is unless you doubt Luke 3. Who created Adam? Or, the only other way to ask the question, who is Adam? The Son of God, as are all of us from that one seed. The most likely answer to the question of this thread is that the Lord is the Son being raised to new life as God's Son. We, who are many, are one loaf as Paul says. We cannot take Paul out of this either.

Luke 3

Enoch was the son of Jared.
Jared was the son of Mahalalel.
Mahalalel was the son of Kenan.
38 Kenan was the son of Enosh.
Enosh was the son of Seth.
Seth was the son of Adam.
Adam was the son of God.

a reply to: AlephBet

Ahh but you see he wasn't talking about "the law" handed down by Moses... He was speaking of the law of Love...

Otherwise he would not have changed laws or broken them... he would have kept all of the rules, but we clearly know he did not...

We are all Him. He is all of us. We are from his seed, that is unless you doubt Luke 3. Who created Adam?

No one... Adam never existed... Nor did eve...

there has never been a time where there was only two people on this planet...

The most likely answer to the question of this thread is that the Lord is the Son being raised to new life as God's Son. We, who are many, are one loaf as Paul says. We cannot take Paul out of this either.

hmm... I've this discussion before with you... Somehow I think you've been here before

Yes... we can take Paul out of this very easily... Paul taught his own doctrine which was not the same as what Jesus taught... he did not expand on the teachings Jesus gave... he made up his own

And I can never agree with this horrid idea that the OT lord was Jesus... You make him responsible for all of the atrocities within those books by doing so... and simply saying "oh well a son needs to learn, even Gods son" is not a valid answer

No my friend... You are wrong on this

a reply to: AlephBet

Originally posted by AlephBet
The fact that Jesus defeated his lower nature (YHVH) indicates to me that he was showing that the men of Israel were clinging to that previous error.

If it is true that all of humanity is a product of the Son of God, then we reflect His image perfectly. We judge the Lord of the OT and end up judging our own previous actions. Jesus was showing them a change was needed.

It’s the other way around IMO…YHVH is the higher nature. The men of the Old Testament attributed evil commands and additional cruel Laws to YHVH, when in reality, they really came from themselves and their misunderstandings about God’s character.

Men were clinging to their lower natures in the OT, they just used “Gods name” as an authority to deceive and keep power over others IMO. In other words, things were attributed to God, like additional Laws etc.… which never came from God; hence Jesus coming to fulfil the Laws, to straighten out the truth. But yes, Jesus was trying to get them to turn away from that lower nature, and turn instead to the Father…

- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

Dude you are right on

a reply to: Akragon

You have no idea what you're talking about

Pretty convincing argument you have there

I'm speechless in fact...

Never said they were main stream BTW.

What I DID say was that they are propaganda.

Gnostic "scriptures" were written centuries after the true Gospels and its clearly obvious that they don't belong as well.

According to Bible Scholars Barbara Thiering and Hans Jonas, Simon Magus was the founder of the Gnostic church and was the direct competitor with Christianity for the hearts and minds of the Greco Roman world.

Simon is the Beast, the original Antichrist, and the true identity of the number 666. He was so powerful in fact, that he is known by many different names in the Bible. Once all his "names" are learned, a very different picture of the Gospel emerges, one in which Jesus and Simon were creating two very different religions, for the reformation of Judaism, and the conversion of the Greco Roman/Pagan world to the Judaic god.

According to Clement, the early church father, Magus could, levitate items on command, speak with spirits, summon demons and place them into statues making the statues walk and talk, fly, and even raise the dead. These were all deceptions designed to indoctrinate his followers into believing he was a god. His religion, the Gnostic religion, was the sect that preceded Christianity in the Diaspora.

Simon Magus -- The lluminati's Jesus?

a reply to: AlephBet

Jesus was born with a living spirit, unlike the rest of mankind. That's why He could not have a human biological father. Its true, that while on the cross, His spirit died. This was Him paying for our sins. So, as you quoted, He was put to death but his spirit was made alive. This is the foundation for our rebirth and resurrection, the fact that Jesus' spirit was revived, then His body resurrected.

So yes, Jesus was born again, but it happend on the cross, not at His water baptism.

Why exactly do you assume that Yehwah was fallen? I dont understand your logic here.

You can say that Jesus seemed more forgiving, but that is because He intarnated to die for our sins. Yehwah was forgiving as well, only He was forshadowing forgiveness. Blood had to be spilled for Israel's protection, so that the Messianic bloodline could be guarded. Yehwah flooded the world to protect the messianic bloodline from genetic splicing.

As far as the horrible things that Israel has done apart from Yehwah's will, Yehwah cannot be blamed for man's actions.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Why exactly do you assume that Yehwah was fallen? I dont understand your logic here.

Take your time. Read carefully. Jesus was the Alpha (First Adam) and the Omega (Last Adam). Resurrection comes form the firstfruits. The dead rise in Christ to become the body. Again, read carefully.

Romans 5

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

Luke 3

7 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,
the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,
the son of Kenan, 38 the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.

Who is the Son of God? Who did he create?

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.”

Who is the Redeemer? The one that is the root of the trouble.

1 Corinthians 15

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Jesus was the first and then last Adam. Fallen, then risen.

Fruit is what grows from the tree. Jesus is the firstfruits of what comes after the fall. His fall.

originally posted by: Murgatroid
According to Bible Scholars Barbara Thiering and Hans Jonas, Simon Magus was the founder of the Gnostic church and was the direct competitor with Christianity for the hearts and minds of the Greco Roman world.

Simon is the Beast, the original Antichrist, and the true identity of the number 666. He was so powerful in fact, that he is known by many different names in the Bible. Once all his "names" are learned, a very different picture of the Gospel emerges, one in which Jesus and Simon were creating two very different religions, for the reformation of Judaism, and the conversion of the Greco Roman/Pagan world to the Judaic god.

According to Clement, the early church father, Magus could, levitate items on command, speak with spirits, summon demons and place them into statues making the statues walk and talk, fly, and even raise the dead. These were all deceptions designed to indoctrinate his followers into believing he was a god. His religion, the Gnostic religion, was the sect that preceded Christianity in the Diaspora.

Simon Magus -- The lluminati's Jesus?

From the research I've done, Gnosticism has nothing to do with gaining magic powers to manipulate physical reality. Gnosticism teaches that a false god runs this physical world and so, the physical world is bad and if we focus on things of The Spirit rather than the flesh - Selfless Love, Forgiveness, Fasting, etc. then we will show that we belong to Spirit (Jesus Christ/Heaven).

The main difference between Gnosticism and Mainstream Christianity, seems to be that The Gnostics believe that you are only saved through works, works inspired by practicing The Wisdom (Gnosis) Jesus Christ taught. In Mainstream Christianity, you are saved by Faith in believing that Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world and if people believe this then they are washed in his blood and cleaned of their sins. Saved by grace not through works that any man should boast (according to Paul in Ephesians 2:8).

The Gnostics believe that yahweh, the old testament god, is the devil, some reasons are because:

Jesus said all who came before him were liars and thieves (John 10:8)

Jesus said he is the one true teacher (Matthew 23:10/Matthew 23:8)

Jesus said no one has known the father until they've known him
(John 6:46 / John 1:18 / John 14:6)

Jesus told people not to follow "Deuteronomy 19:21" in the old testament
But to instead follow His Word "Matthew 5:38-39" in The New Testament instead

a reply to: arpgme

Great reply there. Thank you for that. These were some I missed.

originally posted by: Murgatroid
a reply to: Akragon

You have no idea what you're talking about

Pretty convincing argument you have there

I'm speechless in fact...

Never said they were main stream BTW.

What I DID say was that they are propaganda.

Gnostic "scriptures" were written centuries after the true Gospels and its clearly obvious that they don't belong as well.

According to Bible Scholars Barbara Thiering and Hans Jonas, Simon Magus was the founder of the Gnostic church and was the direct competitor with Christianity for the hearts and minds of the Greco Roman world.

Simon is the Beast, the original Antichrist, and the true identity of the number 666. He was so powerful in fact, that he is known by many different names in the Bible. Once all his "names" are learned, a very different picture of the Gospel emerges, one in which Jesus and Simon were creating two very different religions, for the reformation of Judaism, and the conversion of the Greco Roman/Pagan world to the Judaic god.

According to Clement, the early church father, Magus could, levitate items on command, speak with spirits, summon demons and place them into statues making the statues walk and talk, fly, and even raise the dead. These were all deceptions designed to indoctrinate his followers into believing he was a god. His religion, the Gnostic religion, was the sect that preceded Christianity in the Diaspora.

Simon Magus -- The lluminati's Jesus?

haha!!

Did you actually read that link or did you just pick one of your usual illuminati sites at random?

Simon magus was the Father of the gnostic religion was he?

Considering gnostic writing preceded Jesus... and there was no such thing as a "gnostic religion" back then... they didn't call themselves "the gnostics" that was a term used by the people that were against them

Again, you haven't got a clue what you're talking about...

You seriously have to get your head out of the illuminati conspiracies... I think they're making you a little crazy

a reply to: arpgme

Very good reply... notice this...

The main difference between Gnosticism and Mainstream Christianity, seems to be that The Gnostics believe that you are only saved through works, works inspired by practicing The Wisdom (Gnosis) Jesus Christ taught. In Mainstream Christianity, you are saved by Faith in believing that Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world and if people believe this then they are washed in his blood and cleaned of their sins. Saved by grace not through works that any man should boast (according to Paul in Ephesians 2:8).

Paul vs Jesus

a reply to: Akragon

Please give me your view of this verse if the Father does not raise His Son:

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

To raise a son, you fill him with truth so that when he is older, he does not depart from it. How can the Father teach the Son if the Son is not being raised?

In answering the question, who is the Lord, we need to recognize who created Adam. Luke 3 tells us, yet you say Adam never existed. What do you have to answer for this position?

Luke 3

37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,

the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,

the son of Kenan, 38 the son of Enosh,

the son of Seth, the son of Adam,

the son of God.

Didn't you say Adam never existed?

a reply to: AlephBet

There are several verses just like that one... specifically saying Jesus was taught everything he taught his followers by his Father... but the issue is the OT god is not his Father...

Of course a Father must raise a son... but that does not mean Jesus was the lord in the OT...

All you have to do is read the OT and see the character of this so called "god" and anyone can clearly see he is nothing like Jesus... Not even close

He/she/it is a wrathful, jealous, envious tyrant... and the complete opposite of Jesus

Jesus Vs The Imposter

Luke 3 tells us, yet you say Adam never existed.

And you do know Luke was a follower of Paul right?

originally posted by: arpgme
The Gnostics believe that yahweh, the old testament god, is the devil...

Like I said, one does not understand Gnosticism by studying Gnosticism.

It makes just as much sense as joining a cult in order to learn about one.

Satanic practices throughout the world can be traced in an unbroken line directly back to Gnosticism.

Curse of Canaan

“Gnostics are Cabbalists who worship Satan.” ~ Howard Ratcliffe

a reply to: AlephBet

My simple answer is this below..

I happen to feel as though the OT God is actually the way we viewed God... from the mind/minds of the fallen one/ones... Adam/Jesus/ Satan/Us. The "desire" to be separate is what got us stuck on Earth.

The NT God is Love... our new outlook in regards to our Father... from us being raised and the end finale with Jesus being the redeemer. He is our representative so to speak.

Because I believe in reincarnation I am under the impression Jesus began as the heel and in the end got his crown. He is ALL of us.. including the fallen ones... which does indeed include Lucifer.

We are the bread.. the entire loaf.

This is just a belief.. one that may change with more study.

a reply to: AlephBet

There is a difference between being a son of God (created by God), and being the only begotten Son of God. Satan was a son of God, all of the angels are sons of God (Gen 6:4). Even Adam himself was a son of God, but that doesnt mean that Jesus was Adam. Jesus is called the last adam, because adam (ha'adam) is also the title of the human race. He was the man who ended sin.

The Alpha-Omega title is not congruent with the First-Last Adam analogy. The First-Last Adam shows a contrast between Adam (the initiator of man's sin) and Jesus (the vanquisher of sin).

Being the Alpha and the Omega has NOTHING to do with being the first and last of anything. That was added into the book of Revelation years later. Alpha and Omega simply refers to the two revelations of God: Aleph glory-mighty Yehwah and Thau glory-the mark that everyone misses.

Revelation 1:8 says this: I am the Alpha and Omega.

Thats it. The "first and last" nonsense was added by someone who misunderstood what Alpha/Omega meant.

Aside from your interpretation of First and Last Adam, where else does the bible indicate that Jesus was Adam. The title son of God is very generic.

a reply to: Murgatroid

by that same logic one does not learn about Christianity by joining a Christian church...

the funny thing is I actually agree with that however twisted it might seem...

Join a church without learning about Christianity and you are blinded by their own errors

the best way to learn about gnostic texts is to read them...same as the bible... not to listen to what others say about them like you're doing...

that is no better then listening to your local preacher at a church

a reply to: Akragon

So you have narrowed it down to which chapters or books in the Bible? I am curious. Paul is out. Luke is out. The OT is out. What is in?