Ukraine 'agrees truce' with Putin

a reply to: Adaluncatif

Everyone seems to lose sight of the fact that the junta in Kiev is illegal.

You keep losing sight of the fact the the government in Kyiv is not a junta, it is now a constitutionally valid government.

Viktor Yanukovich is the legitimate democratically elected leader of Ukraine.

Then why can no-one find him?

If Russia decides to really invade Ukraine, they can take Kiev in two weeks.

Except that NATO would bomb the Russian army into oblivion. If Putin tries using tactical nukes, you can kiss Moscow good-bye.

Then we will see Viktor Yanukovich back in Kiev, and the $5 billion that the US spent to overthrow him will be for nothing.

First, you have to find Yanukovych.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Adaluncatif

Everyone seems to lose sight of the fact that the junta in Kiev is illegal.

You keep losing sight of the fact the the government in Kyiv is not a junta, it is now a constitutionally valid government.

yeah, right. i keep hearing this BS over and over again on ats, from people like you. i've already argued about it twice. i've provided proof, which the other side tried to counter, to no avail. just check my earlier posts on ats.

the bottom line is: they've signed the agreement under the supervision of EU officials, and one of the points was to get back to earlier constitution, that would - at least folks from your camp say so, they have no clear proof though, because i have to yet be given a direct translation of that earlier constitution - make it easier to throw out yanukovych from the office.

but here's where things get interesting.
first, they didn't get back to that earlier constitution legally, because yanukovych would have to sign it, and he didn't.
second, even if they would, what they did had nothing to do with constitutional getting rid of the president, regardless of the constitution in place.

there was no investigation, no juries, nothing. they just did a single voting, which - even if it would be supposed to be valid - didn't get a majority required by the constitution. all with rush to declare yanukovych a criminal, while throwing the whole agreement to the toilet. even more interesting, they've released from duty a bunch of constitutional juries right then if i remember correctly.

and you call that bunch of liars and criminals a constitutionally valid government? according to whom, western bankers? mighty usa doing what it can to destroy the relations between russia and the rest of europe because otherwise their mighty dollar will become a toilet paper?

give me a god damn break.

a reply to: jedi_hamster

Are you a Ukrainian Constitutional lawyer? If not, your opinion, however long winded, is irrelevant.

Who let Putin's puppies out to play?

originally posted by: jedi_hamster


yeah, right. i keep hearing this BS over and over again on ats, from people like you. i've already argued about it twice. i've provided proof, which the other side tried to counter, to no avail. just check my earlier posts on ats.

Last year the elected Parliament in Kiev was legally elected.

This year, somehow, that exact same parliament, made up of the exact same members, is supposedly a junta.

No - I see no reason to give you a beak.

The Parliament decided that Yanukovich had abandoned his post - there is no provision in the constitution for that of course, but to their extreme credit that didn't stop them from taking sensible steps to ensure Ukraine continued to have a functioning government.

Was it a revolution - hell yes - but that doesn't mean it is illegitmate, or nazi, or anything else - except not suitable for Tsar Putin's purposes.

Go back to your kennel!

originally posted by: Adaluncatif

Everyone seems to lose sight of the fact that the junta in Kiev is illegal.

Not according to the Parliament of Ukraine, which is soverign there.

Viktor Yanukovich is the legitimate democratically elected leader of Ukraine.

No, he isn't,. They had an election - a real one - not like Putin's.

If Russia decides to really invade Ukraine, they can take Kiev in two weeks.

Very possibly. So what?

Then we will see Viktor Yanukovich back in Kiev,

Again - very possibly - and WW3 as well. How is tha a good thing?

and the $5 billion that the US spent to overthrow him will be for nothing.

So you are saying that the $5 billion hte US "spent" in Ukraine from 1991 was all to overthrow Yanukovich?? Wow - that's forward planning - over 22 years and 4 different administrations.......shame "they" can't organise anything else as well - wtf didn't they just spend $5 billion to overthrow Saddam - would have been a bargain!!

Mind you I think the REAL money reason here is tha Putin is pissed that his $15 billion to bribe Yanukovich into betraying Ukraine into the nex Russian Empire has been wasted - so now he's throwing lives at it, since his capitalism obviously isn't "As effective" as the US & Europe's!!

The truth about the $5 billion - not that I expect you to comprehend it!!

a reply to: jedi_hamster

Russia had no reason to shoot the plane down. You're speaking as though Russia is a clever entity which only ever does what it means to.

I had no reason to drop a glass in the kitchen last week, but drop the glass I did.

I'll say it again - how ever you look at it - Russia is to blame for that plane crash.

Edit: I'm not saying there's nothing suspicious and dodgy going on by other powers outside of Russia or Ukraine. I'm saying that if Russia literally did not exist on the map as a country and had somehow slipped into the ocean - the plane ikely wouldn't have been shot down.

a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul

Last year the elected Parliament in Kiev was legally elected. This year, somehow, that exact same parliament, made up of the exact same members, is supposedly a junta.

This parliament has no strength no voice it is under the control of Right Wing Right Sector elements.

Even a pro-Russian candidate running for president was publicly and brutally assaulted. Pro-Russian voices inside the parliament are subdued with physical violence and threats to family and businesses etc. That is a jungle thug culture not a democracy.

The leader of Right Sector threatened the Porky Poro to free his criminal buddies from jail without any prosecution. The threats were complied with 2 days.

The parliament is a SHAM and until the Right Wing influence is removed, no parliament or president will have any legitimacy.

originally posted by: jedi_hamster

originally posted by: MrSpad
This is no suprise. The entire reason Russia went from supporting the rebels with arms and volunteers and instead began to pour Russian troops over the border was to save the rebels. If the rebels had been eliiminated Russia would have lost a card to play in talks. Putin started talking about a cease fire then and of course Ukraine added a card be declaring it would apply to join NATO. So now talks can go along the lines of the rebels will go away if Ukraine does agrees to not join NATO etc.

Although it is kind of funny how nobody negotiates with the rebels themselves. Talks are always with Russia who then says yes we agree the rebels with enter a ceasefire but, we still have nothing to with any of this. It is almost like a wink wink nudge nudge. Nobody is really suppose to believe it but, they keep it up for appearances sake.

the west has promised a lot of money to kiev folks if they get rid of the eastern separatists. that means killing everyone that doesn't agree with them. that means killing civilians.

that's why they won't stop. their only chance to survive this winter is to end that domestic clusterf... as soon as possible. and mark my words, they will stop at nothing to finish off the rebels and everyone pro-russian. the rebels won't just go away. they're protecting civilians.

and i know that ukraine joining nato is a wet dream for some of you, together with ww3, but that's not going to happen.

So Ukraine agrees to a ceasefire to kill the rebels? Why bother most of them are not from Ukraine anyway. They will go home when Russia tells them to. And did you say the rebels are protecting civilians? The reason the rebels have done so poorly is they have spent more time robbing and harming the locals than they have fighting. Not only have rebel commanders admited this but, even started a death penalty to try and get the problem under control. The rebels are no longer even a part of the equation. Russia forces and volunteers are.

Russia will sell out what is left of the rebels and pull out the Russian troops and volunteers in a heartbeat in exchange for Ukraine promising not to join NATO. And the west has not promised Ukraine money for getting rid of the seperatists as nobody in the West believes that they exist in any real numbers. The West sees the problem in east a one created and run by Russia. Thus the west wants to see Ukraine Russia talks because Russia will have to give up a great deal if it wants to get rid of santions.

a reply to: MrSpad

I might be wrong and although I have been "promoting" this solution but it is fraught with lots of risks for Russia.

If Ukraine joins EU and agrees to not join NATO then............peace reins in.

However..............once in EU if Ukraine shows any actions like oppression of Donbass Russians or wanting to join NATO (agreements mean nothing when you want to break them !!) or anything that threatens Russia...........then Russia acts up in a similar "destablishing" fashion.

Here is where the problem starts.............

Ukraine already part of EU. Does EU have any "security measures" within members that outside problems sponsored by another nation (like Russia in Donbass right now) becomes an act of aggression where by all the EU members seek to help that nation under destablizing incursions from a non-EU nations.

Most of the EU members are also part of NATO. Hence any EU member say Germany or France tries to help Ukraine it becomes a NATO responsibility by article 5.

Hence merely joining EU, Ukraine has joined NATO.

End of the story for Russian interests.

originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: yuppa

Who is Putin to recognize when people of DPR and LPR did not even vote.

THUGS IN KIEV WILL REMAIN THE "ILLEGAL JUNTA" UNTIL THEY LEAVE THE OFFICES. THEIR POSITIONS WERE ATTAINED BY USING THE RIGHT SECTOR TYPE ELEMENTS WHO THREATENED PEOPLE ALL AROUND.

After all the gruesome killing of both barely armed rebels and peaceful civilians, it is best for Kiev Junta to go their own ways.

NovoRossiya will be a new country that will solve the ethnic issues in that region for a long long time.

OH i am sorry. i forgot i was not going to speak to you again.my bad. This is the last one i promise. Putin is a coward for not openly fighting a war usint his troops in un marked uniforms. Its a violation of the geneva conventions and he should face war crimes charges. .Obviously he does not have the balls to own up to stuff he does. what a coward.Hiding behind his army like a scared pup.

Dont forget Russia death toll is way more than the US's if you include its founding. russia made the romans look like choir boys. BEfore the crimean debacle ukraine didnt have no issues with ethnic russians. Until putin promised them control apparently for their support. Power corrupts right? and why listen to a government when you can be your own boss right? This current truce is just a smoke screen. If they become like crimea was its only a matter of time till they get annexxed.

a reply to: stumason

then this proves russia has been directly involved, putins a clown whos' ruining his country

Poroshenko is an American stooge. How can a stooge take big decisions?

Poroshenko is NOT a thinking President. The decisions are taken by somebody else.

Russia desire stabilization of situation on the ground. Russia is hesitating as Russian people are not prepared.

However globalists have made up their mind. Russia has been challenged. Either Russia fights or capitulates. There is no third option.

It is painful for Russia as its policy of last 25 years (greater integration with Europe) is coming unstuck. Russia is forced to forge an identity separate from Europe, which needs it to identify and solidify its Asian roots.

Putin wants a ceasefire and perhaps Poroshenko too. But will it happen? I see escalation and ultimate sacking of Kiev. It is just a matter of how things progress.

The Western readers are affected by deep brainwashing. They think Putin is orchestrating this. This is as far from reality as anything can be. Putin is merely reacting to the events, and Russia is still not having a coherent strategy.

The IMF lending to Ukraine is a trap for Ukraine to make its citizens slaves of globalists. They are nothing but cannon-fodder.

Ukraine defence minister talks of tens of thousands dead. I want to tell him to stop baby talk. He should be prepared for deaths of millions of Ukrainians.

Because when this thing gets ugly, and Russia decides to make a frontal attack, we shall see the greatest rocket fire ever seen used in Ukraine.

a reply to: GargIndia

And if that happens, Russia will be committing one of the grossest violations of national sovereignty, as well as a probable war crime (for your "millions of dead Ukrainians") that has been seen since the 1940's.

Quite why you seem to revel in it is a mystery, because at best, Russia will have it's arse kicked back to Moscow by NATO (costing millions of more lives - likely my own as I am considering joining the Army Reserve..doh) and at worst, we all die in a nuclear holocaust - neither of which I want, as I quite like my peaceful life, with my kids and friends, the occasional BBQ etc - quite why anyone wants war is beyond me, but Russia seems hell bent on getting what it wants yet hasn't realised this isn't the way the world works.

a reply to: BanTheTruthQuick
How far right are you talking?

...

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: GargIndia

And if that happens, Russia will be committing one of the grossest violations of national sovereignty, as well as a probable war crime (for your "millions of dead Ukrainians") that has been seen since the 1940's.

excuse me, but what did your beloved NATO do for the past decades?
the hypocrisy on this forum is beyond me.

i'm done with this topic on ATS. it's pointless. believe in what you want to believe, you're already fighting a war for the criminals you so admire.

just a small food for though for ya.

who has thrown the biggest amount of money at the current kiev junta?
who has their officials or bussiness people (or often one and the same) involved there?
who interferes with ukrainian nuclear infrastructure?
and last, who would get their economy trashed if russia would sustain a healthy economic relations with the rest of europe?

you really think russia is the biggest meddler there?
think again.

a reply to: jedi_hamster

Examples of NATO doing whatever it is you're accusing them of would be great, rather than stamping your feet because people hold a different viewpoint.

All of NATO's involvements have been under the auspices of a UN mandate, therefore no breach of national Sovereignty has occurred as the UN has authorised intervention. Even Iraq 2003 - which wasn't NATO at all - was technically legal under UN mandates concerning Chemical weapons, even if it was stretched.

And while we're crying like a little girl about hypocrisy in the "past decades", I assume then you're going to hold Russia to the same level of criticism and account as you do NATO countries? After all, they held much of Eastern Europe under tight control for nigh on 50 years, including invading any countries that attempted to overthrow and replace the corrupt, unrepresentative and /or dictatorial regimes put in place by Moscow...

Oh, hang on, that sounds familiar, doesn't it? Let me think....

a reply to: stumason

neither of which I want, as I quite like my peaceful life, with my kids and friends, the occasional BBQ etc - quite why anyone wants war is beyond me

There is one promising fact about you westerners. You guys can DENY any fact or wrongdoing, even major, with such simplicity and flair that such DENIALS have become a part of your psyche.

It is the western foreign policies that are REPEATEDLY flirting and provoking wars in other countries. This act has become so BOLD now that West is flirting war with the #1 or #2 Nuclear Superpower in the world.

Guess seeing those dead soldiers with charred bodies and severed limbs are not enough to give your thinking a jolt. But oooops !! sorry for being off the mark here, those pics do not matter to you as they are not your own people......whom you do BBQs with.