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Nuclear Submarines...wait...Chinese?

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posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 10:37 AM
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Source - The Washinton Times

The Chinese have nuclear equipped submarines...How will this change things...How did it change things for the USA when they aquired this weaponry...How will Japan feel as they have in the past dominated the Asian influence over the west and China has now come to steal that spotlight, economically and militarily...What will change in China's influence and ability to change things globally??? It's a different world than our grandfathers who faught in WWI and WWII lived in..what does this mean....the Chinese have Nuke Subs




posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 11:25 AM
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They've had them quite a while you know, so it changes not alot.

And things change over time, its China's turn to be the power now.

[edit on 3-12-2004 by Teh_Gerbil]



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 02:01 PM
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china has had nuclear ballistic missile subs for a while now

however, before type 94, their ones are hella crappy with only range of about 2000 miles

the new type will allow sub lanuched ballistic missiles with range of 8000 miles

[edit on 3-12-2004 by white_raven0]

[edit on 3-12-2004 by white_raven0]

[edit on 3-12-2004 by white_raven0]



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 02:18 PM
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The Chinese have nuclear equipped submarines...How will this change things...How did it change things for the USA when they aquired this weaponry...How will Japan feel as they have in the past dominated the Asian influence over the west and China has now come to steal that spotlight, economically and militarily...What will change in China's influence and ability to change things globally??? It's a different world than our grandfathers who faught in WWI and WWII lived in..what does this mean....the Chinese have Nuke Subs


The "recent" nuclear developments are nothing new. This is just a public announcement- one that has been carefully constructed and controlled. The world does not belong to the United States.

War is an entirely different issue. What are your thoughts here? Does this public revelation serve as a precursor to a larger conflict? Fortunately, a sizable portion of the population are completely numb and unaware of this concern.

The "Far East" is "Far Out" of the minds of millions. Rising gas prices, prominent court cases covered by the media, reality television - these are the things that are important. In a few years, might China seize upon this opportunity? Are there any economic games being played at the moment?




china has had nuclear ballistic missile subs for a while now

however, before type 94, their ones are hella crappy with only range of about 2000 miles

the new type will allow sub lanuched ballistic missiles with range of 8000 miles


Exactly. 8000 miles is roughly over twice the distance between the US and Europe. Naval operations are going to go insane.

Intelligence operations of all countries would probably be increased as well.

From the US standpoint, I really hope that the recent changes at CIA will help the situation.

MK

[edit on 3-12-2004 by MKULTRA]



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 02:54 PM
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China's SSN's are pretty bad by western standards. They have been plagued by reactor problems, and are quite noisy and inefficient. The incident in Japan was a Han class (type 091), and it didn't take the JDSF long to spot it and chase it off. There were a total of 5 Han class boats built, and they are undergoing modifications to try to solve some of the problems. Their first attempt at a SSBN (Xia class, type 094) was equally disappointing. Their newest attempt is the Type 093 SSN, which is seen as a modified Victor III class, and if successful, will eventually replace the Han's. Progress has been slowed due to the extended refits of the Hans.

All in all, the SSN/SSBN programs have been problematic for China. The Han incident in Japan was quite an emabrassment for China, as a public apology is seen as a loss of face, and if China tries it again, Japan is almost certain to sink it on sight.

Where China is making progress is in SSK's. Their earlier designs (Romeo, Ming) are considered obsolete, but the new Yuan class should be a big improvement. The Yuan is thought to be a modified Kilo, and will likely have AIP. The Song class is a modified Ming, and was first commissioned was in 1999. China has 7 Songs. They also operate 4 Russian Kilo's, and have 8 more on order, but delevery is in question, I think China would prefer to build more Yuan's instead of buying Kilos from Russia.

China's progress in SSK's is clearly aimed at improving their capabilities in littoral operations in areas like the Taiwan Straits and the Spratlys. But at this point, their nuclear subs are a non-threat.



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 03:07 PM
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The world will not change much, I think Chinese repect American power as all other nations. And China just try to find way to protect itself and making balances.

Stay away from Taiwan issue, Chinese and Amarican can live peacefully for a long time. Otherwise, think about a millionaire go to your home want to grab your son. you never want to make conflict with him, but, if that happen, you will just grab your gun.



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by white_raven0
china has had nuclear ballistic missile subs for a while now


Actually make that singular. They have one.

Recently one of thier nuke subs tried to sneak in Japan's water and got spaked by thier Navy. Japan is excellent at ASW and have a huge fleet of P-3C and no doubt acess to the US SOSUS network in that area.

China does not have a blue water navy. If it did that may change things a bit.



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by white_raven0
china has had nuclear ballistic missile subs for a while now


Actually make that singular. They have one.

Recently one of thier nuke subs tried to sneak in Japan's water and got spaked by thier Navy. Japan is excellent at ASW and have a huge fleet of P-3C and no doubt acess to the US SOSUS network in that area.

China does not have a blue water navy. If it did that may change things a bit.


Japan's asw is not really excellent as people used to think. Chinese subs have been there quite a few times since 2000. Last year the sub itself merged out to demonstrate its existance after it finished its task, which made Japan quite embarassed.

People donot know 094 comes out already or not. That is the real meaningful nuclear sub in many aspects It was told that it can carry 16 ICB



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 05:37 PM
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hey, last time I checked China had 6 nuke subs (1 Xia and 5 Han class)
and, Xia is Type 092, not 094



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 05:55 PM
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Aren't the chinese currently on spending frenziew, buying many Russian Kilo subs?



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 06:26 PM
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The 093 SSN is currently being deployed as evidence by recent photo release of the launching of JL-II missiles. 094 SSBN is being built and will come into service in a few years.

In fact, Russia has already delivered two of the 8 Kilos that we ordered just last month. I can find the article if you need it. Of course, we will make more Yuan class for sure.

People seem to have short memory, just a few months ago, one of subs surfaced very close to Japan without being detected. That was a big scare for them.



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 06:34 PM
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Originally posted by poirot
hey, last time I checked China had 6 nuke subs (1 Xia and 5 Han class)
and, Xia is Type 092, not 094

poirot- You are correct, I was confusing the new one (094) with the xia (092). Brain fart, Sorry.


The 094 apparently was on hold due to the Han refits, as I already mentioned. However, I just heard that it was spotted at a shipyard northwest of Beijing, so it seems that it has been launched.

China may be moving towards a ballistic missile SSK, using the yuan class as a mule for testing the hull concept. AIP, a sail design that can punch through the ice cap, and lack of launchers on the top half of the bow for "snuffling" through the ice. Just speculation, but that's what it looks like.

Countermeasures- Yes they are. They have 8 new Kilos on order.

Proteinx- You underestimate Japan's ASW. In fact, the intrusion caused the JSDF to accelerate the deployment of their seabed monitoring system, so if China was trying to embarrass Japan, the plan backfired.

And it was not Japan that was embarrased, it was China. If you are Chinese, you know what a public apology to Japan means politically. And there was a tug and support ship steaming to the Han's aid, so why were these needed if the Han was making itself known intentionally? I think it will come out that the Han had technical problems, and it happened in a place they weren't supposed to be.

Hawkssss- Without being detected? Are you joking?

[edit on 3-12-2004 by engineer]



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 06:56 PM
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@Engineer

You seem to have spotty knowledge of our navy.

Here is the article talking about a chinese sub surfacing on its own near japan without japanese detection.

www.atimes.com...

The most recent incident is nothing new; just a game between the great powers.



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 07:12 PM
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@Engineer

here is an article about Russia delivering a couple of Kilos earlier to China.

Russia turns Kilo sub over to China

The Admiralteiskiye Verfi shipyard in St. Petersburg turned over the first of two improved Kilo-class attack submarines to China's navy last week, according to the Interfax news agency.

Shipyard Director Vladimir Aleksandrov said Oct. 21 that shipyard officials, the state-run exporters Rosoboronexport and the Chinese navy had signed a document confirming the transfer of the submarine.

The date for second submarine's delivery was not disclosed.

The two submarines were unveiled at the shipyard last summer and are part of a Russia-China deal worth $1.5 billion that was signed in May 2002. The contract called for five submarines. Two are being built by Admiralteiskiye Verfi while two others are being built by Sevmash in Severodvinsk. The final one is being built by Krasnoye Sormovo in Nizhni Novgorod.

The Kilos are considered one of the most advanced diesel electric submarines in the world and will boost China's ability to conduct a naval blockade of Taiwan.

Taiwan's government is debating a special defense budget of some $18 billion that would include purchases of up to eight U.S. diesel-electric submarines.

Taiwan's Defense Ministry said in a statement last week that war could break out across the Taiwan Strait between 2010 and 2020 if Taiwan does not engage in an arms buildup.


Related link: no date on article no nothing from geostrategy-direct.com



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 07:14 PM
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Hawkssss,

The Ming was over a year ago, and it was not in Japanese territorial waters.

I thought your post was referring to the Han incident last month, that's what I was referring to. The Han certainly did not go undetected.

I don't really think anyone would believe that a Ming could intrude on Japan's territorial waters today...

Anyway, I think China is getting a little adventurous. I see that 2 Chinese spy ships were siezed off the Andamans last week. First Japan and now India? China is not acting too friendly...

www.newsinsight.net...

edit to add: so they have taken delivery of one Kilo, and the order has been reduced from 8 to 5?

[edit on 3-12-2004 by engineer]



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 07:21 PM
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facts are facts; it doesn't matter if you believe. I do.

I am not aware that we have reduced the Kilo orders. Either we, it doesn't matter as the Yuan are coming online fast. Pictures on Chinese forums show 2 more are being built.

Well, doesn't most countries have some kinda of spy ships all over the place. We are no more or no less venturous than anyone else.

Plus, this so-called spy ship has not being confirmed to be chinese at all; otherwise, it would have received much more publicity.



[edit on 3-12-2004 by Hawkssss]



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 07:49 PM
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You know what, just read on a chinese military forum that Washington Post has reported that the first 094 SSBN has been launched. lol This blows my mind, because the americans were predicting a timetable for 2020. However the article says that this new sub (spotted in Dalian Shipyard, northeast of Beijing) has not been fitted with the JL-II missiles yet. It will be one more year before it enters service.

Here is the Chinese link and article.
www.wforum.com...

Can anyone find the english version.



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 07:51 PM
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Just found an article confirming that the new 094 SSBN has been launched, but the range of 4800 miles said about the JL-II is obviously wrong.

www.wforum.com...



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 08:00 PM
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The Russians wanted to sell us the next generation of Conventional Submarines. It has 1/3 the acoustic signiture of the Kilo and it can be equipped with a fuel cell engine just like the best submainrine in the world, the one constructed by the Germans. Right now, I can't remember the name of the Subs name but yes, Russians were aiming this at India and China. China may not buy many, maybe one and the fuel cell technology to be mounted on the Yuan.

Hey, did you guys know, Indians tried to rent a Akula for five years at a price of 25 million? The Russians refused the deal eh? Or else Indians could have had their first SSBN.

[edit on 3-12-2004 by COWlan]



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 08:09 PM
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of course we know that.

Here is a brief news:

Interfax. Wednesday, Dec. 1, 2004, 5:59 PM Moscow Time

NEW DELHI. Dec 1 (Interfax) - Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said Russia is not planning to sell or lease a Project 941 (Typhoon) ballistic missile submarine to India.
"We are delivering conventional submarines to India and do not rule out their future upgrade. As for nuclear submarines, we fully rule out their delivery," Ivanov told reporters in New Delhi on Wednesday



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