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Two Ukrainian Jets Shot Down, Defense Ministry Says

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posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 12:54 PM
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a reply to: GogoVicMorrow




Woah woah.. you mean until the US and EU backed a violent overthrow of the Ukrainian government. They wanted a west friendly Ukraine instead of a Russian ally.


You do know how much bullsnip that is right ?

Considering the Ukraine wanted to join Nato.




posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 02:11 PM
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a reply to: Vovin



They take down a few planes and choppers every week.


I had no idea that this was happening so often - thanks for the info


This was the first I heard of any Ukrainian fighter jets being shot down so perhaps I shall research the history of this conflict over the last couple months to better familiarize myself with the situation.




posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 04:51 PM
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a reply to: Corruption Exposed

So far around dozen of Kiev's planes and choppers have been shot down with 1 case of IL-76 downed with 50 soldiers killed.

Better bet for Kiev Junta is to recognize the separatists parts as NovoRussiya and focus on their western portion of the map.

One rule of thumb is to not pick a fight with a major power like US, the Superpower or Russia regional power or China regional power. This rule holds true until another major power comes to the help.

Is NATO going to pick fight with Russia over Ukraine?
Don't think so !!

Is NATO going to pick fight with Russia over Central European poodles like Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania etc.?
It can but might try to avoid to the max.

The real NATO is English speaking nations i.e. US, UK, Australia, Canada, New Zealand. Rest like Germany, France, Spain etc. are only guests on the table in many a sense. They are already getting a feel of it since Snowden came out with his NSA revelations.

Btw, how much money has US/EU or World Bank or IMF given to Ukraine as an aid. None, Zippo !! They were too happy to remove the government and create a chaos and civil war but that's about it. NATO is another form of Nazi thinking but with little lite flavor and a smiling face. It was made to oppose communism but that enemy was removed nearly 25 years ago.

Kiev should understand this demeanor of the West. End of the day, Ukrainians are still Slavic Eastern Europeans. In their books they are a mix of Mongols, Huns and North Europeans. An inferior stock in culture and orthodox religion. Russia felt this treatment in the 1990s when it tried to join the European and Western club and was shunned.

Does the history repeat itself? When Nazi tanks arrived in Ukraine in WWII, they were greeted with white handkerchiefs, a sign of welcome and friendliness. But soon the host were made to understand their true standing in the Nazi books and thinking. Guess Kiev is making the same mistake here.

Better take their western half and live with their hate for Russians till the time it either subsides or Ukrainian culture and religion is wiped off by outside influence and conversion etc.


edit on 23-7-2014 by victor7 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 07:50 PM
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originally posted by: neo96
a reply to: GogoVicMorrow




Woah woah.. you mean until the US and EU backed a violent overthrow of the Ukrainian government. They wanted a west friendly Ukraine instead of a Russian ally.


You do know how much bullsnip that is right ?

Considering the Ukraine wanted to join Nato.



Obviously not all of Ukraine. Otherwise they wouldn't be in this mess.



posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 08:05 PM
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a reply to: Sparkymedic

What ?

Do people just make crap up as they go along ?

Because it sounds like A HELL of alot of people do it.

READ:



Relations between Ukraine and North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) started in 1994.[1] Ukraine applied to join the NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) in 2008.[2][3] On December 3, 2008 NATO decided it will work out an Annual National Programme of providing assistance to Ukraine to implement reforms required to accede the alliance without referring to MAP.


en.wikipedia.org...

In 2008.

From NATO's own site:



Over time, Ukraine has reinforced political dialogue and practical cooperation with NATO and, since Russia’s illegal military intervention in Crimea, NATO and Ukraine have agreed to intensify this cooperation. NATO supports a range of initiatives in Ukraine, while Ukraine contributes to NATO’s missions in Afghanistan and Kosovo, and in 2013 became the first partner country to contribute to the NATO-led counter-piracy operation Ocean Shield. The formal basis for NATO-Ukraine relations is the 1997 Charter on a Distinctive Partnership, which established the NATO-Ukraine Commission (NUC), and the Declaration to Complement the Charter, signed in 2009.


www.nato.int...



The fundamental documents of Ukraine-NATO relations are the Charter on a Distinctive Partnership between Ukraine and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, signed on 9 July 1997, and the Declaration to Complement the Charter, signed on 21 August 2009. The Law of Ukraine “On the Foundations of Domestic and Foreign Policy”, adopted on 1 July 2010, reflected Ukraine’s intention as a European non-block state to continue constructive partnership with NATO. Based on this course the National Security Strategy of Ukraine (8 June 2012) has been updated. The Alliance confirmed its readiness to further develop the partnership with Ukraine in the new Strategic Concept adopted at the NATO Lisbon Summit (November, 2010) and the NATO Chicago Summit Declaration (May, 2012).


mfa.gov.ua...

Ukraine wanted to be a part of the WEST.

Had the west had real leaders and grant them full member status we wouldn't even be talking about it.

Funny though as NATO was specifically created to keep Russia in check.


edit on 23-7-2014 by neo96 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 09:57 PM
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Does not matter if NATO was made to confront communism professed by USSR, or it was made against Russia or against non-Christians or against non-AngloSaxons or against the aliens.......................

What matters is NATO better not expand to the near abroad of Russia i.e. CIS nations.

Russia will react and if required militarily to such an encroachment.

Russia will not live with the strategic redundancy like NATO missiles only 5 minutes from Moscow etc.

I wonder if Kremlin has called the White House and told THEM SERIOUSLY to NOT spend and waste any efforts in this direction....................as it WILL HAVE...........THERMONUCLEAR CONSEQUENCES FOR THE HUMAN RACE.

PERIOD.






posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 11:21 PM
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originally posted by: neo96
a reply to: Sparkymedic

What ?

Do people just make crap up as they go along ?

Because it sounds like A HELL of alot of people do it.

READ:



Relations between Ukraine and North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) started in 1994.[1] Ukraine applied to join the NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) in 2008.[2][3] On December 3, 2008 NATO decided it will work out an Annual National Programme of providing assistance to Ukraine to implement reforms required to accede the alliance without referring to MAP.


en.wikipedia.org...

In 2008.

From NATO's own site:



Over time, Ukraine has reinforced political dialogue and practical cooperation with NATO and, since Russia’s illegal military intervention in Crimea, NATO and Ukraine have agreed to intensify this cooperation. NATO supports a range of initiatives in Ukraine, while Ukraine contributes to NATO’s missions in Afghanistan and Kosovo, and in 2013 became the first partner country to contribute to the NATO-led counter-piracy operation Ocean Shield. The formal basis for NATO-Ukraine relations is the 1997 Charter on a Distinctive Partnership, which established the NATO-Ukraine Commission (NUC), and the Declaration to Complement the Charter, signed in 2009.


www.nato.int...



The fundamental documents of Ukraine-NATO relations are the Charter on a Distinctive Partnership between Ukraine and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, signed on 9 July 1997, and the Declaration to Complement the Charter, signed on 21 August 2009. The Law of Ukraine “On the Foundations of Domestic and Foreign Policy”, adopted on 1 July 2010, reflected Ukraine’s intention as a European non-block state to continue constructive partnership with NATO. Based on this course the National Security Strategy of Ukraine (8 June 2012) has been updated. The Alliance confirmed its readiness to further develop the partnership with Ukraine in the new Strategic Concept adopted at the NATO Lisbon Summit (November, 2010) and the NATO Chicago Summit Declaration (May, 2012).


mfa.gov.ua...

Ukraine wanted to be a part of the WEST.

Had the west had real leaders and grant them full member status we wouldn't even be talking about it.

Funny though as NATO was specifically created to keep Russia in check.



Actually, not entirely true, do you think if all Ukranians wanted to be a part of the EU, then the West would do this?



Ukraine’s “Democratic Coup d’Etat”: Killing Civilians as a Pretext for Regime Change Global Research, February 26, 2014 With the support of Washington, Ukraine’s opposition “transitional government” headed by the parliament’s speaker Oleksandr Turchinov has issued an arrest warrant directed against the democratically elected President Viktor Yanukovych, accusing him of having ordered the “mass murder” of civilians during the bloody riots and clashes with police forces on Maidan Independence Square. This “mass murder” for which he is accused bears the fingerprints of the Right Sector and Neo-Nazi party Svoboda, which is supported and financed through various channels by the US and the EU. The Maidan riots as well as the riots organized in other parts of the country were carefully staged with a timeline and specific political objectives in mind. Civilian casualties were part of this staged agenda, with a view to accusing president Yanukovych of “mass murder”, thereby providing a justification for regime change on humanitarian grounds.


www.globalresearch.ca...

And also, I watched a lot of videos from the Ukraine of everyday people getting the crap bombed out of them by Kiev forces, these people had to flee their own country. Why would all of this be true if not for the fact, that not all of them wanted to be part of the EU. The issue was forced by the west, and personally, I think Kiev will kill anyone if you got in their way.

The story of Ukraine is not black and white

edit on 23-7-2014 by Zcustosmorum because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 02:15 AM
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My theory is that the Russian separatists shot MH17 because they were spooft to believe it was a Ukrainian military aircraft.
The two Ukrainian military aircraft was shot down this time because Ukraine believed that the separatists would be reluctant to use their anti aircraft after the last blunder.

The idea of ​​it was a spoofing attack that got the separatists to shoot MH17 down I got from the No Agenda podcast with Adam Curry & John C Dvorak show nr. 636



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 04:10 AM
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originally posted by: victor7
Does not matter if NATO was made to confront communism professed by USSR, or it was made against Russia or against non-Christians or against non-AngloSaxons or against the aliens.......................

What matters is NATO better not expand to the near abroad of Russia i.e. CIS nations.

Russia will react and if required militarily to such an encroachment.

Russia will not live with the strategic redundancy like NATO missiles only 5 minutes from Moscow etc.

I wonder if Kremlin has called the White House and told THEM SERIOUSLY to NOT spend and waste any efforts in this direction....................as it WILL HAVE...........THERMONUCLEAR CONSEQUENCES FOR THE HUMAN RACE.

PERIOD.





Why would the Americans care? They are arrogant and aggressive. They want to knock down rival powers to ensure economic (thus power) supremacy over world affairs. US economy is on a crash course? The solution is not to fix things at home, but to take out economic rivals. Inherent fallacies of capitalism are not hard to identify.



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 02:16 PM
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Why would the Americans care? They are arrogant and aggressive. They want to knock down rival powers to ensure economic (thus power) supremacy over world affairs. US economy is on a crash course? The solution is not to fix things at home, but to take out economic rivals. Inherent fallacies of capitalism are not hard to identify.
a reply to: Vovin

Americans do care, for their people and overall interests.

The problem is the "CLEPTOCRAT BASTARDS" in Kremlin has not seriously conveyed such message to DC. They are themselves more busy looting Russia from within. So far this year $100B of capital has exited Russia via corruption.

Guess Russia was and still is the land of slaves with few elites and the rest all poor barely scraping by. This elitist culture of Russia in any system, be it Tsarist, Communist or Capitalist, impedes overall development of the society. That is why many times in the past the Russia state has collapsed when pressure in put in from outside. That is what NATO/West is doing for last 20 years.

After economic disaster in 1990s, today's Russia is badly stagnating and barely hanging on via the energy prices.



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 11:53 PM
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originally posted by: victor7



Why would the Americans care? They are arrogant and aggressive. They want to knock down rival powers to ensure economic (thus power) supremacy over world affairs. US economy is on a crash course? The solution is not to fix things at home, but to take out economic rivals. Inherent fallacies of capitalism are not hard to identify.
a reply to: Vovin

Americans do care, for their people and overall interests.

The problem is the "CLEPTOCRAT BASTARDS" in Kremlin has not seriously conveyed such message to DC. They are themselves more busy looting Russia from within. So far this year $100B of capital has exited Russia via corruption.

Guess Russia was and still is the land of slaves with few elites and the rest all poor barely scraping by. This elitist culture of Russia in any system, be it Tsarist, Communist or Capitalist, impedes overall development of the society. That is why many times in the past the Russia state has collapsed when pressure in put in from outside. That is what NATO/West is doing for last 20 years.

After economic disaster in 1990s, today's Russia is badly stagnating and barely hanging on via the energy prices.


Yes Russia is a kleptocratic empire veiled under the guise of western democracy. This transition was hailed as a milestone of democracy by the West as their only true threat, the Soviet Union, collapsed.



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 02:26 AM
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a reply to: Vovin




Why would the Americans care? They are arrogant and aggressive.


Unlike Russia who thinks they have a say into who a sovereign nation can deal with just because they were once part of their union.

But that's not considered arrogant or aggressive now is it?



posted on Jul, 26 2014 @ 05:33 PM
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originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Vovin




Why would the Americans care? They are arrogant and aggressive.


Unlike Russia who thinks they have a say into who a sovereign nation can deal with just because they were once part of their union.

But that's not considered arrogant or aggressive now is it?


Oh, because invading multiple continents while pushing Americentric foreign policy in the other continents is not arrogant or aggressive. But Russia takes an interest in events taking place in a country that not only borders them but shares so much culture, and this makes them the evil empire.

Tell me, why was the USA funding and inducing regime change in Ukraine for a decade? Why has the Pentagon been sending advisors to "train" the Ukrainian military?

It's pretty arrogant to assume that those of us in the world, aside from the USA, cannot clearly seen the extent of American imperialism. When the USA is conducting politics for the Ukrainian government, you cannot seriously claim that Russia is interfering in Ukraine. If anything, Russia is interfering in American foreign policy, which has overreached well into the territory of a powerful regional empire.



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