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Two Ukrainian Jets Shot Down, Defense Ministry Says

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posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 08:58 AM
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My understanding is a fighter jet and several Mig helicopters had already been shot down before the airliner was brought down.

So I don't see it as unusual that the Ukrainian military have continued flight operations, and the Separatists have continued to shoot them down every now and then.


The SU-25 is an old aircraft. It will be susceptible to the (I assume) Strela-3s the Russians have armed the Separatists with. So, makes sense that they'll be shot down every now and then.

Though now I think about it, do we know what MANPADs systems the Separatists are deploying?




posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 09:01 AM
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originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: Corruption Exposed

They are saying "See! See! if they can shoot down these they probably shot down mh17."


Yes, bang on

it's quite simple and if Kiev knew the rebels had seized control of BUK missile and knew how to use them then these people who they are caling terrorists would have ment that the airspace over the east Ukraine would have been a no fly zone for comercial aircraft.

They cannot have it both ways and in any case the rebels did not divert MH17 or ask it to fly lower and because few people beleived Kiev story of events even with all the spin from the west they have shoot down two of their own planes.



posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 09:05 AM
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Escalate to what? They were shooting down jets before MH17 and they are continuing to shoot them down. What's changed?s reply to: Corruption Exposed


edit on AM000000310000000773005312014-07-23T09:05:50-05:00 by AutumnWitch657 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 09:09 AM
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originally posted by: Painterz
My understanding is a fighter jet and several Mig helicopters had already been shot down before the airliner was brought down.


I am sure you are right about the helicopters and maybe old fighter jets on a bomb run using hand hold missile systems from the ground but these don't hit planes at 30,000 feet else our new terrorist friends in the ISIS would have half the skys of the world closed.

Russia should not be giving the rebels missiles, Russia should invade and make the east of the Ukraine a part of Russia just like the people in the area voted for so no, i don't trust them and its just that i trust them more than the USA after the 9/11 inside job



posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 09:14 AM
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originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein
Sorry to sound mean, but if you don't want to be involved in a thread, by all means don't open it and join in.


I obviously do want to be involved since I did open it and I did join it. I gave my opinion on the matter as did you. Unlike you apparently, I love to learn as much as possible about many topics, regardless of my interest level.

My point, that a jet being shot down in a war zone with many jets being shot down does not deserve it's own individual thread, still stands, and I will continue to follow this thread and learn as much as possible nonetheless



posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 09:17 AM
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Of of course those sweet little rebels did not do this, it has to be fake anti Russian propaganda. And they did not shoot down that airliner nor the planes before that either. They do not even carry guns. They just hand out flowers and kittens. And the "volunteers" from Russia are there just to run soup kitchens and give foot rubs.

I really wonder about you people sometimes. The rebels shoot down planes and they are happy to brag about it. They just happened to shoot down the wrong plane, which they would most likely have admitted to as an accident if Russia was not afraid of getting a share of the blame for supporting the rebels. The rebels do not have to worry about santions but, the Russian are very worried.

Nobody needs to do anything to try and make the Russians look bad. They are not trusted by the world and more isolated than ever. Sure the airliner shoot down does not reflect very well on them but, it is not like their reputation can get any worse. And most of the outrage has been at the response to the shoot down with body and plane tampering. Russia defying logic and trying to blame everybody but, the rebels etc. Outside of Russians and that tiny subset of the fringe who do they expect to believe them?



posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 09:28 AM
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Meanwhile in Ukraine the commander of one of the Ukrainian anti-aircraft platoons was killed in Luhansk airport region.

What was he doing there on the frontlines?

Is it possible that Ukraine is cleaning up the witnesses?



posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 09:35 AM
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What was he doing there on the frontlines?


George Patton, Hal Moore and some others could answer that question. Times have changed, though.



posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 09:39 AM
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originally posted by: VirusGuard

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: Corruption Exposed

They are saying "See! See! if they can shoot down these they probably shot down mh17."


Yes, bang on

it's quite simple and if Kiev knew the rebels had seized control of BUK missile and knew how to use them then these people who they are caling terrorists would have ment that the airspace over the east Ukraine would have been a no fly zone for comercial aircraft.

They cannot have it both ways and in any case the rebels did not divert MH17 or ask it to fly lower and because few people beleived Kiev story of events even with all the spin from the west they have shoot down two of their own planes.



The thing is, it wouldn't take a BUK to take down the fighters. They are flying, generally, at a much lower altitude than the airliner. Also slower.

I still think it could've been either side that show down mh17 but I lean more towards Ukraine because they have a motive to do it intentionally. Also while it is claimed the rebels have one BUK system (they MAYBE have one), the Ukrainian military has many (i want to say I read they had 40 BUKs, but I can't recall for sure). The Ukrainians have mulitple BUKs and plenty of people well trained to use them v.s. the rebels who maybe had one, but are generally pretty rag tag.



posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 09:44 AM
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a reply to: MrSpad

They probably did shoot this plane down. They had shot others down.

However there is a HUGE difference between shooting down a low flying military jet and an airliner. Fighter jets are taken down with manpads.

It is most likely that Kiev and those Ukrainians brought down the airliner (with their dozens of BUK systems and trained military to run them) rather than the rebels who MAYBE MAYBE had one BUK and possibly people to use it (despite being a pretty rag tag group compared to the Ukrainian military.



posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 09:54 AM
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According to him, soldiers of the 50th, 55th and 147th antiaircraft missile regiments stationed in Yalta, Feodosia and Fiolente moved to the side of the Crimean people. "More than 20 anti-aircraft missile systems "Buk" and more than 30 anti-aircraft missile system "S-300 PS became part of the air defense units, sided with the government of the ARC", - said the official.
Read more: voiceofrussia.com...[/e xnews]
voiceofrussia.com...

Not only do the rebels have Buk/sa11 but well trained operators too.

Here's an older model for sale, $8,350 pretty cheap to start a world war these days.
www.mortarinvestments.eu...
edit on 23-7-2014 by weirdguy because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 09:57 AM
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Regardless of - who,why, what or when; Why would you risk a meeting with the same as MH 17.

Could be some proof of guilt or innocence or more obfuscation.
They are sticking to their guns. Literally.

This is a very messy affair.

I find it hard to see any winners in all of this.

Thoughts with the families ...



posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 10:55 AM
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originally posted by: PsychoEmperor

originally posted by: Corruption Exposed
a reply to: PsychoEmperor



Do we really need updates every time a Jet is shot down in a war zone?


This is a major update...

Do you suggest that we ignore the news since you find it uninteresting?

This will fuel the fire and most likely escalate the conflict to the next level.

Expect some sabers to be rattled and for the media to spin the heck out of this one.


A MAJOR update? really? No... A major update would be Russia officially invading Ukraine, A Major update would be American, European or Nato Forces getting involved in the conflict directly, a Major update would be a smoking gun on who shot down the Malaysian plane.

"The Sukhoi-25 are typically used for supporting ground troops and may have been flying low. Many of the aircraft downed by rebels were attacked by ground fire."
Source for the MANY of the Aircraft DOWNED

I understand in war time we like to count every body and every plane shot down, but you don't even have the current tally of planes shot down, implying(to me at least) that these two jets are somehow significant in nature. It's not.

Sorry to sound mean, I understand you are just trying to report what you see and the media portrays it as huge news, so you in turn do the same.

I am merely suggesting this "news" be lumped in with one of the many Ukraine Civil War threads already present, since in of itself, it's just another military jet shot down, in the coming weeks there will be more. They don't each require their own thread.


Wow, I've never seen so much whining before...

This is a major update - you would be naive to think not.

Putin is at a fork in the road, so are the Ukrainians. They both must choose their next moves wisely. When the dust settles and more information is available there will be rhetoric between the various parties involved.

I have several theories of what might have happened, some of them definitely involve some type of conspiracy but this could easily be exactly what the media is portraying it to be - but I doubt it.

Please continue following this thread as your crying amuses me.

ETA:

Some actual contribution to the thread instead of you repeating your dislike for this thread would be much appreciated, who died and made you rent-a-mod?
edit on 7/23/2014 by Corruption Exposed because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 11:30 AM
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Yeah well people planes weren't falling out of the sky 'mysteriously' until Putin Invaded.

Second verse.

Russia 'never' does anything wrong !

Putin is so 'dreamy' !



posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 11:37 AM
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originally posted by: Corruption Exposed

originally posted by: PsychoEmperor

originally posted by: Corruption Exposed
a reply to: PsychoEmperor



Do we really need updates every time a Jet is shot down in a war zone?


This is a major update...

Do you suggest that we ignore the news since you find it uninteresting?

This will fuel the fire and most likely escalate the conflict to the next level.

Expect some sabers to be rattled and for the media to spin the heck out of this one.


A MAJOR update? really? No... A major update would be Russia officially invading Ukraine, A Major update would be American, European or Nato Forces getting involved in the conflict directly, a Major update would be a smoking gun on who shot down the Malaysian plane.

"The Sukhoi-25 are typically used for supporting ground troops and may have been flying low. Many of the aircraft downed by rebels were attacked by ground fire."
Source for the MANY of the Aircraft DOWNED

I understand in war time we like to count every body and every plane shot down, but you don't even have the current tally of planes shot down, implying(to me at least) that these two jets are somehow significant in nature. It's not.

Sorry to sound mean, I understand you are just trying to report what you see and the media portrays it as huge news, so you in turn do the same.

I am merely suggesting this "news" be lumped in with one of the many Ukraine Civil War threads already present, since in of itself, it's just another military jet shot down, in the coming weeks there will be more. They don't each require their own thread.


Wow, I've never seen so much whining before...

This is a major update - you would be naive to think not.

Putin is at a fork in the road, so are the Ukrainians. They both must choose their next moves wisely. When the dust settles and more information is available there will be rhetoric between the various parties involved.

I have several theories of what might have happened, some of them definitely involve some type of conspiracy but this could easily be exactly what the media is portraying it to be - but I doubt it.

Please continue following this thread as your crying amuses me.

ETA:

Some actual contribution to the thread instead of you repeating your dislike for this thread would be much appreciated, who died and made you rent-a-mod?


If you take what I said as whining, than ok buddy more power to you


I'll contribute when it isn't a direct attack on my "whining"



posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 11:40 AM
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a reply to: Corruption Exposed

What's the big deal here ..? Its a war rite..? They're not sending those jets to deliver food .. the sooner they get shot down the better ..
innocent lives will be saved somewhere ..



posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 11:50 AM
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originally posted by: junglimogli
a reply to: Corruption Exposed

What's the big deal here ..? Its a war rite..? They're not sending those jets to deliver food .. the sooner they get shot down the better ..
innocent lives will be saved somewhere ..


Has anyone officially declared war? Honest question...

No offense intended but I can't tell if the last part of your post was sarcasm.

In my opinion these jets being shot down is not a good thing.

Cheers.
edit on 7/23/2014 by Corruption Exposed because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 12:12 PM
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originally posted by: neo96
Yeah well people planes weren't falling out of the sky 'mysteriously' until Putin Invaded.

Second verse.

Russia 'never' does anything wrong !

Putin is so 'dreamy' !



Woah woah.. you mean until the US and EU backed a violent overthrow of the Ukrainian government. They wanted a west friendly Ukraine instead of a Russian ally. Most of the country supported relations with Russia, but 70 percent of Kiev supported relations with the west. Russia stepped in because the people that still supported the original government pre coup were facing danger.

So planes weren't following out of the sky until the west helped a protest turn to a coupe.
edit on 23-7-2014 by GogoVicMorrow because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 12:29 PM
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originally posted by: Corruption Exposed
a reply to: PsychoEmperor



Do we really need updates every time a Jet is shot down in a war zone?


This is a major update...

Do you suggest that we ignore the news since you find it uninteresting?

This will fuel the fire and most likely escalate the conflict to the next level.

Expect some sabers to be rattled and for the media to spin the heck out of this one.


Well, the separatists have downed a lot of air power so far. They take down a few planes and choppers every week.



posted on Jul, 23 2014 @ 12:31 PM
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originally posted by: MrSpad
Of of course those sweet little rebels did not do this, it has to be fake anti Russian propaganda. And they did not shoot down that airliner nor the planes before that either. They do not even carry guns. They just hand out flowers and kittens. And the "volunteers" from Russia are there just to run soup kitchens and give foot rubs.

I really wonder about you people sometimes. The rebels shoot down planes and they are happy to brag about it. They just happened to shoot down the wrong plane, which they would most likely have admitted to as an accident if Russia was not afraid of getting a share of the blame for supporting the rebels. The rebels do not have to worry about santions but, the Russian are very worried.

Nobody needs to do anything to try and make the Russians look bad. They are not trusted by the world and more isolated than ever. Sure the airliner shoot down does not reflect very well on them but, it is not like their reputation can get any worse. And most of the outrage has been at the response to the shoot down with body and plane tampering. Russia defying logic and trying to blame everybody but, the rebels etc. Outside of Russians and that tiny subset of the fringe who do they expect to believe them?


What is the point of this post?







 
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