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A hypothetical for the Freemasons.....

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posted on Jul, 13 2014 @ 07:23 PM
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i suppose the lack of stars on my responses means that you disagree and you think people really are guilty of stuff that they have very little to any control over? for example, genetic predisposition. is that the person's fault?
how about bad upbringing? how about bad experiences that screwed a person up so badly, they are ill from it in one capacity or another? is that the person's fault?

i just couldn't accuse people of being inherently evil for being a certain way -- such as a gender, a genetic condition, a mental or physical malfunction, an emotional disturbance and so on. where you are born, who you are born to, when you are born, what happens during your lifetime, all collects to shape who you are as a person. most of that, is totally outside of your control and the bits that aren't out of your control, are frequently acted upon by the individual in ways commensurate with their life experiences. i just can't imagine judging people for what they have little to no control over.

compassion is not outdated and never will be.
edit on 13-7-2014 by undo because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 13 2014 @ 10:35 PM
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a reply to: KSigMason

When you use the word ritual, do you infer plural or singular meaning? Just a side curiosity.

So, every year a new treasurer and a new secretary are selected. Is this achieved through a "show of hands" or secret ballot type scenario, or can you even talk about this aspect of it? A secret-ary (haha sorry, couldn't resist), and a Master work together to run the Lodge, I got ya. And, a Grand Secretary is operating for the Provincial level of the Order. Could you maybe talk about the relationship between your Lodge, and the Provincial Lodge? For example, would your Lodge be required to, "kick money up", for example, to the Provinical Lodge, if only to procure the regalia, ritual, and association to Freemasonry? A 'franchise', if you will? What purpose does the relationship serve, I mean.

By your own account, you acknowledge there are others you take requests from. Theoretically, everything you do is at the request of Worthy Mason and the Provinical Grand level. That sounds like a friendly euphimism for taking orders from. A Brother wouldn't word it in the form of an order. He would word it as to a Brother. Doesn't this suggest that there is potential for lower Lodges to be manipulated by a Worthy Master and/or the next level up? Wouldn't the vetting process identify exactly what kind of man you are, and assign you an appropriate position within?

But what if the conspiracy requires you to be that person you are. To be that good human being. You can't imagine it, but what if, the way you live, your lifestyle, your philosophies, your intentions and insecurities, your thought-forms, were exactly what were required to construct a secret, ambitious, and ruthless conspiracy to take over the world? You can't imagine that you could possibly be enabling the bad guys, because they're bad, and how could they manipulate themselves into a position where they were benefitting from the brothers in the Order? I hope i'm not coming across negatively here, it's all with good intent! And totally hypothetical!

Disappeared eh? Nothing, 'William Morgan' like I hope haha j/k Right on tho, thanks for your insight. It sounds very much like each Lodge would have it's own 'independent program', inside the requirements of the Order. As you said, commanderies. Thanks for illuminating me on those aspects of the craft.





a reply to: noonebutme

You say you're not into religious nonsense, yet, aren't one of the requirements to be a Freemason the belief in a supreme creator (God)(GAOTU)? In my opinion, all references to a 'God' are religious in nature. Or am I wrong about the specific requirement to believe in 'God' [in all apparitions]?

I must admit, you all seem like friendly, and very down to earth guys, i'm glad to have this time together! I hope you guys can see that I am not anti-Freemasonry at all. I'm merely trying to 'order my chaos', which is to say, 'clear my headspace'.

Thanks for addressing the OP with your reply. I for one appreciate a Mason who puts it out there that he would oppose such a system.

Good people, good friends and trying to help make a positive difference in the community. That's what attracts me.

This is my general impression of Freemasons.



posted on Jul, 13 2014 @ 10:40 PM
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Sorry Network Dude and Undo. I have a reply typed up but am unable to post it for some reason (error)
edit on 72014vAmerica/Chicago07bAmerica/ChicagoSun, 13 Jul 2014 22:44:36 -05005 by November5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 13 2014 @ 10:42 PM
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a reply to: network dude

As far as people in the community needing help financially, would that help be extended to people who aren't associated in some way to the Order? Feel free to not answer any of these questions. When you are presenting a new degree to someone, what sort of 'practice' are you talking about? Merely your 'role' within the ritual? Like, memorizing lines and what not? I have to say, if it's true about the Masonic Order, that the higher up you go, the more work you do, then this is a RARITY in western civilization! lol j/k That's definitely interesting. I hear ya tho, 'many hands make light work'.

edit on 72014vAmerica/Chicago07bAmerica/ChicagoSun, 13 Jul 2014 23:09:44 -05005 by November5 because: weirdness



posted on Jul, 13 2014 @ 11:00 PM
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a reply to: November5
In that post, I meant in the plural sense. I have a good memory so I can go on for hours reciting Masonic ritual.


So, every year a new treasurer and a new secretary are selected.

Yes, but they can be re-elected.


Is this achieved through a "show of hands" or secret ballot type scenario, or can you even talk about this aspect of it?

We can do it a variety of ways, but usually its through nominations and balloting. We can't campaign though. Some bodies in Masonry though don't elect the Secretary, sometimes he is appointed, but that is up to the By-Laws and Constitution of that particular order.


And, a Grand Secretary is operating for the Provincial level of the Order. Could you maybe talk about the relationship between your Lodge, and the Provincial Lodge?

Quick point of clarification. When I was talking about the Grand Secretary I was talking about the Grand Secretary of the Grand Lodge of Idaho. When I talked about the Provincial level, I was referring to the Order of St. Thomas of Acon which is organized with a local body called a Chapel, a Provincial level (the US is one of several) and the Grand level which is HQ in England (for this particular order). Sorry for the confusion; I just wanted to point out that the Lodge is different from St. Thomas. To be in the Order of St. Thomas of Acon, you must join the York Rite and then be invited to join.


For example, would your Lodge be required to, "kick money up", for example, to the Provinical Lodge, if only to procure the regalia, ritual, and association to Freemasonry? A 'franchise', if you will? What purpose does the relationship serve, I mean.

Every Lodge gives a per capita to the Grand Lodge. There's no national Grand Lodge in the US.


Theoretically, everything you do is at the request of Worthy Mason and the Provinical Grand level. That sounds like a friendly euphimism for taking orders from. A Brother wouldn't word it in the form of an order. He would word it as to a Brother. Doesn't this suggest that there is potential for lower Lodges to be manipulated by a Worthy Master and/or the next level up? Wouldn't the vetting process identify exactly what kind of man you are, and assign you an appropriate position within?

In St. Thomas, yes. I often initiate quite a few things myself. And everything we do is bound by the By-Laws, even the leaders.


You can't imagine it, but what if, the way you live, your lifestyle, your philosophies, your intentions and insecurities, your thought-forms, were exactly what were required to construct a secret, ambitious, and ruthless conspiracy to take over the world?

I don't see myself as enabling anything devious or malicious.



posted on Jul, 13 2014 @ 11:01 PM
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originally posted by: November5
Sorry Network Dude and Undo. I have a reply typed up but am unable to post it for some reason (error)


add it to your longer post above maybe?



posted on Jul, 13 2014 @ 11:07 PM
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a reply to: undo

I tried it, but to no avail. I even tried here but it won't post, even tho this will. Weird. The Universe is trying to tell me something. Perhaps the content of my replies are unsuitable?

I was able to get the reply to Network through, but not yours. Very weird.
edit on 72014vAmerica/Chicago07bAmerica/ChicagoSun, 13 Jul 2014 23:11:29 -05005 by November5 because: some kind of intervention?



posted on Jul, 13 2014 @ 11:17 PM
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originally posted by: November5
a reply to: undo

I tried it, but to no avail. I even tried here but it won't post, even tho this will. Weird. The Universe is trying to tell me something. Perhaps the content of my replies are unsuitable?

I was able to get the reply to Network through, but not yours. Very weird.


erm. i can't imagine why what you say about a subject would be outlawed by the universe, as you put it. you're the same as the rest of us--innocent due to lack of relevant information.



posted on Jul, 13 2014 @ 11:28 PM
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I understand you are looking for the hypothetical

If I were to find out that your situation was true, I would likewise try to expose it. I won't lie. I ama bit of a pansy and would be concerned for my safety but I am also a fan of taking things to authority when need be

now...would I be listened to? I have no idea...but I sure would try

I actually am currently working on a book to expose one filthy lie of the Masons...I mean who puts onions in ham and bean soup! I mean come on!
edit on 13-7-2014 by KyoZero because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 13 2014 @ 11:29 PM
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originally posted by: undo

originally posted by: November5
a reply to: undo

I tried it, but to no avail. I even tried here but it won't post, even tho this will. Weird. The Universe is trying to tell me something. Perhaps the content of my replies are unsuitable?

I was able to get the reply to Network through, but not yours. Very weird.


erm. i can't imagine why what you say about a subject would be outlawed by the universe, as you put it. you're the same as the rest of us--innocent due to lack of relevant information.


Let me try removing the content I think might be problematic, see if that helps:


originally posted by: undo
a reply to: network dude

i don't believe we burn in hell but yeah, i have had someone do that to me. i'm more of a....well let's put it this way, i think more along the lines of every human being is innocent, this due mainly to things like genetics, environment, education or lack thereof, and especially lack of comprehensive data pertinent to making the really big choices. in effect, we are almost completely clueless about the bigger mysteries, thru no fault of our own.



Yea, I would have to agree with that for sure. At least that is my current awareness of things. I would add, that those who 'know', without knowing what is going on, and maintain their position of ignorance, have none to blame but themselves for not being open to the information first, and critical of it once an understanding had been formed. Nicely put!

i just couldn't hold 2 completely different ideas in my head about the same subject at the same time, without it resolving into cognitive dissonance.

I believe the trick here, is to retain the different ideas in your mind but I think what you obviously wouldn't want to do, is try to hold them at once(simultaneously). Situational awareness determines which aspect of a [positve or negative] interpretation you're going to move forward with. ie One day you believe in the New World Order conspiracy, and you want to further your understanding of that perspective. The next day you want to believe that evil could never get a foothold over the world to support such a claim. You order your day's research accordingly.

In my opinion, awareness shifts when you overcome the limits of thought applied by the western logic thought process (ie duality). Admittedly, to overcome this mental paradigm, dysfunction and chaos are required, am I right?

[Edit add-in]Interesting....very interesting...



edit on 72014vAmerica/Chicago07bAmerica/ChicagoSun, 13 Jul 2014 23:30:34 -05005 by November5 because: [limit border]?

edit on 72014vAmerica/Chicago07bAmerica/ChicagoSun, 13 Jul 2014 23:31:08 -05005 by November5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 13 2014 @ 11:47 PM
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a reply to: November5

well this is based on my interpretation of the creation chapters in genesis. there appears to be 2 layers. one layer says, go forth, be fruitful and multiply and you can eat from any tree that bears fruit. the other layer says, don't multiply and don't eat from that tree over yonder. that sounds like they are just 2 different stories but they aren't. the tree of the knowledge was procreative inheritable dna. you learn this when it says ADAM KNEW HIS WIFE AND SHE GAVE BIRTH. so why did it suddenly become a bad thing to be fruitful and multiply (procreate)?

2 different gods. one created us as eternal beings and gave us procreation.
the other said, oh no! eternal procreators! not on my planet. and since it was his planet, he claimed divine law to demand our dna be modified to have limited life span. yes, that's all in the creation chapters.

in other words, the fall narrative is all kinds of messed up. it's blaming us for being what god created us to be.
that's when i realized the information is being hidden, obscured, obfuscated, and instead, we are told we are bad, evil, awful. but if we were created in god's eternal image, we are god copies, not bad, evil, awful.

therefore, the idea of original sin, is not the way its presented. i will admit, we as a species can be unpleasant from time to time and sometimes really quite bad, evil, awful, but i don't think that it's a genetic pre-condition. our lack of relevant data is the genetic pre-condition we all suffer from.

i don't think dysfunction is accurate but would need a better description of chaos to answer that question



posted on Jul, 13 2014 @ 11:50 PM
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a reply to: KSigMason

Right on man, thanks for answering those questions when you really didn't have to. That's a lot of interesting information, and I believe I am one step closer to AskAMason


So, there's a relationship between the local, provincial Lodges, and the HQ Lodge in England, however indirectly?

You said:
I don't see myself as enabling anything devious or malicious.

And that's sort of the point i'm making. From your perspective, it doesn't look at all like that's what's happening. If the theory were correct, you wouldn't be able to see it. Anyways, way off point lol. Just some food for thought.
edit on 12014vAmerica/Chicago07bAmerica/ChicagoMon, 14 Jul 2014 00:10:53 -05005 by November5 because: pebbles



posted on Jul, 14 2014 @ 12:08 AM
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originally posted by: November5
So, there's a relationship between the local, provincial Lodges, and the HQ Lodge in England, however indirectly?

In St. Thomas, yes. Every appendant/concordant body is structured differently; I could cover each one if you want.



posted on Jul, 14 2014 @ 12:12 AM
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originally posted by: KSigMason

originally posted by: November5
So, there's a relationship between the local, provincial Lodges, and the HQ Lodge in England, however indirectly?

In St. Thomas, yes. Every appendant/concordant body is structured differently; I could cover each one if you want.


No no that's not necessary, but thanks for the offer. So, local Lodge, provincial, St. Thomas, HQ, is that accurate? I hope you won't mind I added a comment to the post previous to this. If you have any thoughts about it, lemme know!
edit on 12014vAmerica/Chicago07bAmerica/ChicagoMon, 14 Jul 2014 00:13:15 -05005 by November5 because: missed one



posted on Jul, 14 2014 @ 12:20 AM
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a reply to: noonebutme

Sorry, forgot to mention, it's not that I believe something nefarious will come of it, or that you could be a bad guy lol, no worries there.

It's me, i'm afraid. I'll spare you the details, suffice to say there are obstables in the way at the moment. Maybe someday tho. Never says never, right?



posted on Jul, 14 2014 @ 05:02 AM
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a reply to: November5
There's still some confusion as Lodge and the Order of St. Thomas of Acon are two different groups.

Blue Lodge
Lodge (local/constituent body) --> Grand Lodge (state level in the US); some jurisdictions have a District set-up that is led by an officer that mediates or performs some duties between Grand Lodge and the Lodge

Order of St. Thomas of Acon: an invitation group stemming off of the York Rite: www.travelingtemplar.com...
Chapel (local/constituent body) --> Province of the USA (Provincial Grand Secretary in TX) --> Grand Master's Council (England)



posted on Jul, 14 2014 @ 03:35 PM
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originally posted by: November5

a reply to: noonebutme

You say you're not into religious nonsense, yet, aren't one of the requirements to be a Freemason the belief in a supreme creator (God)(GAOTU)? In my opinion, all references to a 'God' are religious in nature. Or am I wrong about the specific requirement to believe in 'God' [in all apparitions]?


No, you're correct. I don't believe in religion or that stuff - but i do believe in life and energy. So to me, that's the "higher existence" or higher being - impartial, unbiased energy that we're all apart of and we all belong to. So... yeh - that's how it works for me



posted on Jul, 15 2014 @ 02:49 AM
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originally posted by: November5

By upper echelon, I just meant the people who tend to the financial and administrative aspects of the Lodges. The ones who would be privvy to the secrets, if the secrets did in fact exist.


It's no secret that most Lodges are ruled from the North, much to the dismay and frustration of many new incumbent Worshipful Masters...



edit on 15/7/2014 by Saurus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2014 @ 03:00 AM
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originally posted by: November5

You say you're not into religious nonsense, yet, aren't one of the requirements to be a Freemason the belief in a supreme creator (God)(GAOTU)? In my opinion, all references to a 'God' are religious in nature.


A Mason understands that people of all religions Worship the one God. Religion just dictates how we should Worship God. Logically, "who" people worship is not in dispute, since there is only one Supreme being, and therefore, religion can only dictate "how".

Since Freemasonry does not dictate "how", we are certainly not a religion.



edit on 15/7/2014 by Saurus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2014 @ 03:19 AM
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originally posted by: November5

When you use the word ritual, do you infer plural or singular meaning? Just a side curiosity.


Always plural.


So, every year a new treasurer and a new secretary are selected. Is this achieved through a "show of hands" or secret ballot type scenario, or can you even talk about this aspect of it?


Typically, the same Secretary and Treasurer is elected year after year, and it's usually one of the older members of the Lodge, typically a retired Grand officer with lots of time on their hands and looking for something to keep them busy. These older members are usually the ones who resist change and say that things should be done the way they have always been done. Hence, my previous comment that Lodges are typically ruled from the North. (Which means the Secretary, Masonically speaking.)


"Could you maybe talk about the relationship between your Lodge, and the Provincial Lodge? For example, would your Lodge be required to, "kick money up", for example, to the Provinical Lodge, if only to procure the regalia, ritual, and association to Freemasonry? A 'franchise', if you will? What purpose does the relationship serve, I mean."


A portion of our annual dues get paid to District Grand Lodge to cover expenses, usually building rental and traveling costs of District Grand officers for installations, printing of correspondences etc.


By your own account, you acknowledge there are others you take requests from. Theoretically, everything you do is at the request of Worthy Mason and the Provinical Grand level. That sounds like a friendly euphimism for taking orders from. A Brother wouldn't word it in the form of an order. He would word it as to a Brother. Doesn't this suggest that there is potential for lower Lodges to be manipulated by a Worthy Master and/or the next level up? Wouldn't the vetting process identify exactly what kind of man you are, and assign you an appropriate position within?


No. If the Worshipful Master doesn't feel that his Lodge should comply with a request, he has every right to refuse. However, of course, certain things are set in stone - a Mason must pay annual dues to his Lodge, and a Lodge must pay annual dues to District. However, this is always "small" and is simply to cover operational costs.


But what if the conspiracy requires you to be that person you are. To be that good human being. You can't imagine it, but what if, the way you live, your lifestyle, your philosophies, your intentions and insecurities, your thought-forms, were exactly what were required to construct a secret, ambitious, and ruthless conspiracy to take over the world? You can't imagine that you could possibly be enabling the bad guys, because they're bad, and how could they manipulate themselves into a position where they were benefitting from the brothers in the Order? I hope i'm not coming across negatively here, it's all with good intent! And totally hypothetical!


The turnover of "management" happens way too fast to have any such conspiracy. Five years, and your time in active District duty is over, and somebody else takes your place. (This is another aspect which is difficult to explain to a non-Mason - the difference between being an active District or Grand officer and a Past District and Grand officer.) Your first appointment to District can be as a Past Junior Grand Deacon, but you are not on 'active' duty. I know, it sounds totally illogical, but somehow makes sense to us.


edit on 15/7/2014 by Saurus because: (no reason given)




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