The Coming Caliphate who will it Love?

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Sadly, you keep saying there are people in Iraq who are fighting them. Yes... the shia. Not the sunni - they are handing over their weapons and banks,.. it is only the shia who are fighting.

Since the shia are greatly outnumbered everywhere in the world by the sunni's, (and shia don't believe in offensive jihad) I'd like to know why on earth you think suddenly the shia will win a fight we have not won since the death of the Prophet (saw)?

Why do you continue to put words in my mouth?
I won't answer you until you correct your self....

a reply to: nenothtu

I totally agree with you about the cyber warfare concerted effort to get support for the rebels in Syria.

a reply to: nenothtu

Its obvious you wish to debate this issue . but only time will give us the answers..

You say yay they will grow I say nay !

We will just have to wait sadly. Let's hope your not right ..

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Here you say:

the umma will not let them grow

At current moment, the ONLY Ummah fighting against them are the shia in Iraq... And the rest of the shia in the world hands are tied by laws governing jihad - laws that sunnis do not share with us.

I stand by what I said. With only the shia fighting them, what on earth makes you think the shia will win?

This is a war that cannot be won through polemics. This one requires a bit more flesh and blood. What do you think will happen when they control the second largest oil rich country in the world?

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Not so much debate as just throw in my two cents worth, but it IS a debate forum for stimulation of thought.

You are correct, time WILL tell, and yes, I hope I'm wrong, and get egg all over my face. Unfortunately, the tale time has told so far is right on schedule with what I said in previous posts.

It doesn't leave me feeling all warm and fuzzy, if that's any consolation. It's not to me.

a reply to: nenothtu

How much of ISIS' growth has the umma stopped? Not much, judging by the view from Iraq.

Muslims are dying everyday fighting these guys. We just don't hear about it in the west.

I do what i can in trying to educate people about the dangers of the ISIS and other groups.

What els can I do? If i goes their to fight them I'll never be able to return home and I'll be labeled a "terrorist"
I do what I can from the Internet and education programs.

What do you do?

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Here you say:

the umma will not let them grow

At current moment, the ONLY Ummah fighting against them are the shia in Iraq... And the rest of the shia in the world hands are tied by laws governing jihad - laws that sunnis do not share with us.

I stand by what I said. With only the shia fighting them, what on earth makes you think the shia will win?

This is a war that cannot be won through polemics. This one requires a bit more flesh and blood. What do you think will happen when they control the second largest oil rich country in the world?

When did I say anything about shia winning anything? Are you really that nieve to think the ISIS is not a threat to the sunnies as well?

They are a threat to both because they are khuaraij and takfri.

Your also wrong in assuming that the same "rules" don't apply to sunnies about jihad..

We are bound by the same rulings.. If you would like I can link you plenty of information regarding this..

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

The fighting, the front, is in Iraq and Syria. They were loosing in Syria and saw and opening for power in Iraq and took it, once they are set there, they will go back to Syria and win.

Unless real fighting begins. So when do the sunnis start fighting them?

As far as laws:

Where is your hadith that say the lesser jihad is only in self defense before the rising of the Qa'im (aj)?

(and please spare me your ahadith concerning the greater jihad... I'm talking specifics, and there are none in your books. It's why Isis even exists. It's why it CAN exist.)

originally posted by: LightningStrikesHere
a reply to: nenothtu


Muslims are dying everyday fighting these guys. We just don't hear about it in the west.

Of course they are. maybe I'm not far enough "west", because I hear of it every day. Just yesterday my son called me and told me about 13 and 14 year old kids scouring the countryside for US arms and armor to fight against them with, since the Iraqi army has proved to be so devastatingly ineffective.

KIDS, doing the job (alleged) "men" refuse to do out of fear. Think about that for a while and let it sink in.

Be that as it may, that's not really the issue. You said "the umma won't let them grow", or words to that effect, and I still want to know when the umma is going to get started on that, because they're growing in leaps and bounds at the moment, and being opposed only by kids and Shi'ites. Where is the rest of the umma when you really need it?

I do what i can in trying to educate people about the dangers of the ISIS and other groups.

What els can I do? If i goes their to fight them I'll never be able to return home and I'll be labeled a "terrorist"
I do what I can from the Internet and education programs.

What do you do?

Well, my globe trotting days are long over now. Been there, done that, checked it off and already lost the t-shirt. I didn't lose anything over there that I have even the slightest urge to go back after. If their own army won't fight for their own country, then it ain't my job to do it for them any more.

So, for the time being, I do pretty much the same as you - fight the cyber-war. I don't expect you to go over there and fight for them, either. Waste of time, effort, and blood. I'd rather not see you make that waste.

My recommendation - and it's up to you to evaluate the relevance of it for yourself - is to watch for them, and their affiliates, HERE, at home. THAT will be the only war worth fighting if it ever comes down to that... and pray that it doesn't. The Muslim Brotherhood is HERE, and active. various other groups, such as Jamaat ul Fuqra are HERE, and active (although JuF has been laying low for several years now, they are still HERE).

There's plenty to do and watch for here, no need to go "over there". I don't care if they own every grain of sand between Haifa and Peshawar... but know that when they do, they aren't going to stop at that.

You're right - Muslims are dying daily at the hands of the Brotherhood and their splinter elements. How long is that to be allowed to go on before the umma finally jumps up and puts the slap-down on them?

I'm not going to hold my breath.

a reply to: nenothtu

The world... and then the world.

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

The fighting, the front, is in Iraq and Syria. They were loosing in Syria and saw and opening for power in Iraq and took it, once they are set there, they will go back to Syria and win.

Unless real fighting begins. So when do the sunnis start fighting them?

As far as laws:

Where is your hadith that say the lesser jihad is only in self defense before the rising of the Qa'im (aj)?

(and please spare me your ahadith concerning the greater jihad... I'm talking specifics, and there are none in your books. It's why Isis even exists. It's why it CAN exist.)

Here you go !

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Enlighten your self....
Make sure you scroll down where it says opponents


And everything you need to know about sunnie jihad

islamqa.info...

originally posted by: sn0rch

originally posted by: Expat888
Could care less what they think or may feel about me. nope out here theyd get the boot from the locals same way that in past china has , france has .. the u.s has .. the locals wont submit to any outsiders .. and life will go on as it always has ..

Holy smokes you have no idea..

Compared to what saw during four tours in vietnam with s.o.g along with having spent over 40 years as a surgeon in war zones around the world the isis mess is a #ing picnic .. trust me there are far worse out there in the world ..

a reply to: nenothtu


Just for reference.
The umma is fighting the ISIS
Including the FSA

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

dang, i feel like i'm reading the dune novels lol
the umma. i know that term is in there, as is muadib and a few other
terms i have since read in muslim posts here.

there it is, from a dune website:
Umma is a Chakobsa word meaning "prophet".

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Enlighted YOURSELF:

islamic-world.net...

Teachings like this COULD NOT EXIST but for the fact you have NOT 1 hadith in your books which expressly forbide it!

Shia do have many many ahadith which expressly forbid such things... MANY.....

Sunni are left trying to jump hoops with polemics and playing catch-up with the jihadists because your books do not forbid such action as the jihadi's promote.

It's not to put down you or your ahadith either, it was simply my point. Ahadith ties the hands of the shia, while sunni have no such laws tying their hands.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

You got this all wrong. Just like those stupid Islamic clerics who distort the Quran.

Such verses COMPLETELY refer to the time of Muhammad when his cause was nearly wiped out by his opponents.

They were being oppressed and persecuted and threatened with annihilation by the Mecca powers.

The angel Gabriel is trying to buck up the followers of Muhammad at that time.

These versus refer to that particular time and place scenario not for ALL time.

If that were the case then Christians and Jews would have not ever been allowed to live in Muslim societies.

The history records that Muslims treated other religions far better than the Christians did.

Look at Turkey and Moorish Spain for example.

These modern day Jihadists are just cultists used by political tricksters manipulating the Arab countries for their own cause.

They are useful idiots for Israel and neocon plots.

a reply to: Willtell

The reason I brought up what I did is because the shia have laws concerning jihad that are very specific. So a shia in say... America... cannot just up and take arms against ISIS in Iraq if he is following his religion.

Jihad is only in self defense, and here in America I am not defending myself by going and fighting in Iraq - therefore I cannot pick up and go.

This is where it get's a bit trickier for shia who would like to follow Islamic law in matters... because if ASKED specifically to help our brother, then we can help them.

A sunni can pick up and fight there without being asked, and without ever having to wonder if they are following their religion properly while a shia even if asked will always have to wonder. So while the hands of the shia become tied with our laws, the sunni have no such laws governing whether or not they could up and fight against ISIS.

The Sunni are more numerous than are we, and should by all rights be the ones to fight them. Yet... they aren't in Iraq. They are laying down their arms before the enemy. And this is a danger to all of us... sunni and shia alike, Muslim Christian and Jew alike.

But I don't see droves of sunni practicing what they preach when it comes to fighting against extremists. They claim they do, yet... they sit and act like ISIS cannot be a danger here in the west, only somewhere else in some far away land - which is incorrect if the sunni do not help in the fighting regardless of what country they need fought in.

We all know, if we do not fight them now while they are still small enough to fight, then they WILL be a danger to us all regardless of locality or religion. More sunni should be helping physically fight this mess. imho.

Would you rather stand against them now, or once they have control of the funds of the oil fields?

I am one to feel its past time to stop making excuses or trying to make ourselves look better and actually do something about all this.

a reply to: OpinionatedB



I understand your trying to make this a shia sunni debate, however that's not going to happen.

You make the false claim that their are "no sunnie fighting against the ISIS " I proved you wrong and supported it with "Wikipedia" of all sources i even provided a video in this thread to show the sunnie are fighting the isis.you asked me about hadith regarding jihad for sunni Muslims and I provided it.
And yet you still choose to sit here and deny FACT ! You claim to be a Muslim but you show a lack of intellengence in basic islamic knowlege.

You have twice accused me on this thread of saying things i NEVER stated i think your delusional and twist information to fit your own innovations.

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

I linked you to your own scholars saying these things. It is about sunni shia, and its not about sunni shia at the same time.

Its about who will actually DO something to stop this and stop making excuses and trying to put a better light upon ourselves.

That better light shows better in action than it does in words. Words mean little in the face of real action. I can say I love you, but until I show through action my love, then its only words; meaningless.

It is the same with this fight against jihadists. You can say you don't agree with them all day long, but until you take action against the danger they present, then your words mean little. Only half the battle is in polemics... the other half is on the ground.

You cannot only fight have the battle and think you will win.

You raise children who see your action, and when your action is only words, and not even particularly strong words at that... they get sucked into this mess. Many sunni who have joined ISIS are children raised in the UK and other places. If words were winning, that would never have happened. Apparently the stronger the words, the more the children listen.

I'm afraid that I am more concerned about my own gov't's desire to have wars upon wars so much that they'd help raise up ISIS to be our "enemy"!!!

For those who think that we should go and help fight them well all I can say is send your kids not mine! And well offer up your money not mine!!!

It costs over one million dollars just to pull one US ship out of harbor! And it's quite obvious that our Gov't isn't that fearful of these "terrorists". Just look at the southern border! Even before obama during bush's time in office the immigrants were coming in at outrageous levels!
It can't be an issue of energy since the gov't is in the process of practically killing one of our main energy industries- coal!

They point at our growing deficit and tell us that we can't afford to take care of our veterens, can't afford to maintain the troops equipment. We can't rebuild our falling bridges or fix our potholed roads. We can't keep the social security rolling out we can't feed our poor! But we can spend a few more billion or trillions on war and our failed banking system! We can spend it on all this high tech garbage so they can spy on our emails and know our whereabouts and doings 24/7. We need to spread our warped idea of democracy across the globe! But if the majority of the people we bring it to want to use it to bring in another form of gov't- call it caliphate or whatever doesn't democracy determine that the majority rules as long as the basic rights of the minority are preserved?

Maybe the middle eastern countries should go to Russia and China and ask them for help. They have plenty of money to spend and the chinese has lots of people to send to war. Give them something to spend that money on instead of buying out the western nations assetts for pennies on the dollar!
No More War please!