Is the First Law of Thermodynamics proof that spirits/ghosts exist?

((Mods, I wasn't sure if this should go in the Science & Technology forum, the Religion, Faith & Theology forum or the General Chit Chat forum so you can move this to what you think works best))

I'm going to use a quote from a show (cheesy I know but it works with what I'm going for here) ((The show is called Bones))

The first law of thermodynamics states: Energy is neither created nor destroyed. So when we die, all that energy has to go somewhere, right? I believe that if we die with an abundance of this power it can become forever imprinted on the immediate environment.

Now I am by no means an expert on Thermodynamics, heck I wouldn't even go as far to say well versed in the subject but because of the quote above, I find it interesting.

I do believe in spirits/ghosts & have some experiences with them. I did grow up as a Presbyterian so that naturally had me believe in spirits/ghosts because the soul may not always move on right away. Now that I am older & would be classified as Agnostic, I still believe in spirits/ghosts because we are all made up of energy. In some cases of extreme emotion, I believe that a spirit/ghost can get trapped on Earth. Why, I'm not fully sure on that part yet and what it takes for a spirit/ghost that is trapped to move on, I do not know either. After hearing the quote (the one mentioned above) it helps to make sense of my belief in spirits/ghosts.

What say you ATS? Is the First Law of Thermodynamics proof that spirits/ghosts exist? If not, why? ((I genuinely do what to know as I am only learning about Thermodynamics)

~Namaste

Seems legit...

The Science of Ghost Hunting

a reply to: jrflipjr
I'm trying to work with you here on something I don't believe so please don't take my question as pointing out flaws or saying you are wrong.
I can't see this as proof.


The body stores energy saying that energy is being transfered after death can be considered decomposition and not the proof of spirits from where I sit. I do study on spirits and the like because I don't believe it but could be wrong. Science is and more than likely will be finite forever.

Can you prove to me otherwise?

a reply to: Antipathy17

Sorry, I've had a few tonight. I don't understand your question. What are you asking me?

a reply to: knoledgeispower

I wonder if this has any correlation with Dr. Duncan MacDougall's experiments during the turn of the 20th century. Supposedly, his experiments and measurements indicated that when a person passed away, they lost an of average 29 grams. So if you read around, this is where the term "21 grams of soul" comes from.

Interesting post.

a reply to: Kratos40



I'm sorry. What were you saying? All I see is the Orangutan doing the "Gangnam Style" - "Any Which Way But Loose" style!

I'm not familiar with those experiments. Water loss? Gas loss? I need to do some more reading...

This is getting interesting...er!

a reply to: Kratos40

Yes, I want to know the answers to the same questions as the above poster, plus, I just had to add that I think your avatar is far and away the best I've ever seen! Wonderful, I love it!

a reply to: Kratos40
I'm not sure, I haven't heard of the guy or the experiments. Can you provide more details so that it's in this thread & not everyone has to go hunting it down. If not, I can do it a bit later.

originally posted by: Antipathy17
a reply to: jrflipjr
I'm trying to work with you here on something I don't believe so please don't take my question as pointing out flaws or saying you are wrong.
I can't see this as proof.


The body stores energy saying that energy is being transfered after death can be considered decomposition and not the proof of spirits from where I sit. I do study on spirits and the like because I don't believe it but could be wrong. Science is and more than likely will be finite forever.

Can you prove to me otherwise?

Energy can't be destroyed though.

Energy is neither created nor destroyed

Therefore it's not a decomposition.

Why do you think science is finite?

I think that what we know about science could be finite but we don't know everything.

a reply to: knoledgeispower

It isn't proof of spirits or ghosts because there isn't proof of a soul as of yet. As another poster mentioned the experiments that showed 21 grams missing after a person passing well those experiments are much older to my understanding and they were never confirmed by others. They couldn't be duplicated.

The soul is the one subject I am agnostic on dealing with the supernatural. It is so undefined but found in all mythology. If one exists then at the very least the energy it would be comprised of could not be destroyed but that isn't saying any type of consciousness it may retain couldn't be rearranged to a point that for all intents and purposes that it was destroyed.

As far as the energy from our body being destroyed no it isn't. Everything about our body is energy. Mostly from chemical processes...err.. actually I think it is all chemical. If you want you really break it down all matter is energy.

So anyway the first law doesn't confirm ghosts, spirits, or souls. It just says that what is here will always be here just in different forms. Nothing can really be lost except knowledge.

Actually, the reason is due to the definition of the first law of thermodynamics...

I hate it when science is right!

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: knoledgeispower

It isn't proof of spirits or ghosts because there isn't proof of a soul as of yet. As another poster mentioned the experiments that showed 21 grams missing after a person passing well those experiments are much older to my understanding and they were never confirmed by others. They couldn't be duplicated.

The soul is the one subject I am agnostic on dealing with the supernatural. It is so undefined but found in all mythology. If one exists then at the very least the energy it would be comprised of could not be destroyed but that isn't saying any type of consciousness it may retain couldn't be rearranged to a point that for all intents and purposes that it was destroyed.

As far as the energy from our body being destroyed no it isn't. Everything about our body is energy. Mostly from chemical processes...err.. actually I think it is all chemical. If you want you really break it down all matter is energy.

So anyway the first law doesn't confirm ghosts, spirits, or souls. It just says that what is here will always be here just in different forms. Nothing can really be lost except knowledge.

I said that I didn't know about the 29 gram soul thing so I can not comment on it & I still will not comment on it.

I did not say that energy from our body is destroyed. I said energy can NOT be destroyed & we are made of energy.

If we are all made of energy and energy doesn't get destroyed, just changed into a different form. I think our soul would be the left over energy that moves on. Whether it returns to be among the stars, gets put into a new vessel or chills in heaven/hell, I'm not sure.

(((I do have to stop here because the stones in my salivary glands are causing me a great deal of pain, which is making it really hard to focus & try to explain things)))

((((side note: Is your username a combination of Grimmjow & Kenpachi? If so, sweet!!!!!)))))

a reply to: knoledgeispower

Haha you are the first one to guess the origins of my screen name.

Shh..don't tell anyone.

Anyway I know you are not the one who posted about the 21 grams but I just wanted to add some info on it as it pertains to the existence of the soul.

For me until their is actual evidence of the soul then scientific laws don't have any bearing. So far we don't have any evidence though I wish we did.

Personally I have never seen a spirit or ghost though I did have a freaky experience with a Ouija Board once but that is far from conclusive. To say our spirit moves on that would need to be recorded and measured. Mass is energy so our mass would need to be measured before and after death to see if it changed that is actually what was mentioned with the 21 grams. Like I said no one has replicated the reported results with success. So it failed independent review.

Here is the link to him en.wikipedia.org...(doctor)
www.livescience.com...

If the soul could ever be proven then I think it would have to follow universal laws.


BTW sorry your in pain. Get some rest or whatever you need. Reply whenever you can.

I think the scientific answer will be that energy cannot be destroyed, but can be transformed into other kinds of energy.
As often as not, it becomes heat.
So any "surplus" that exists at death is more likely to dissipate as heat than to do anything else.

The first law of thermodynamics states: Energy is neither created nor destroyed. So when we die, all that energy has to go somewhere, right? I believe that if we die with an abundance of this power it can become forever imprinted on the immediate environment.

Energy can't be created or destroyed, that is true. But it can be interchanged in many different ways; heat, light, sound, vibration, electricity, motion, chemical bonds, magnetic fields, gravitational fields)

Setting some wood on fire converts chemical bonds into heat, light and sound. A solar panel converts light into electricity. Piezo-electric components convert motion and vibration into electricity. A dynamo converts motion into electricity. Energy can be stored by moving liquids or solids up a gravitational field and released by letting it fall down again. It can also be stored as kinetic energy in flywheels and other moving objects.

With some crystal materials and magnetic materials, you can actually store information through combinations of strong magnetic fields, light or electricity.

Every person give off heat and light, and an electric field so long as their nervous system is working. So it is possible that information could be given off - that is how ECG systems work. But with enough accuracy you could determine
everything down to the smallest detail.

a reply to: knoledgeispower It would seem plausible that the energy is in a vessel just like the one it left and when we come in contact with a ghost or spirit that energy has mass that is just not in the same reality with us. If not then i wonder what force keeps all that energy seperate on the other side.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: knoledgeispower

Haha you are the first one to guess the origins of my screen name.

Shh..don't tell anyone.

Anyway I know you are not the one who posted about the 21 grams but I just wanted to add some info on it as it pertains to the existence of the soul.

For me until their is actual evidence of the soul then scientific laws don't have any bearing. So far we don't have any evidence though I wish we did.

Personally I have never seen a spirit or ghost though I did have a freaky experience with a Ouija Board once but that is far from conclusive. To say our spirit moves on that would need to be recorded and measured. Mass is energy so our mass would need to be measured before and after death to see if it changed that is actually what was mentioned with the 21 grams. Like I said no one has replicated the reported results with success. So it failed independent review.

Here is the link to him en.wikipedia.org...(doctor)
www.livescience.com...

If the soul could ever be proven then I think it would have to follow universal laws.


BTW sorry your in pain. Get some rest or whatever you need. Reply whenever you can.

(((I'm new to watching Bleach, I'm addicted though :p))))

You can check out my thread about my own paranormal experiences: My Paranormal Experiences & My Mom's experience in Malakwa, B.C

What universal laws are you talking about that the soul would have to follow? I am unsure which ones you are referring to.

Also I'm wondering why you would think that if the soul existed it would need to be measured? I don't think that there would be any change in a soul's amount of energy

originally posted by: knoledgeispower

originally posted by: Antipathy17
a reply to: jrflipjr
I'm trying to work with you here on something I don't believe so please don't take my question as pointing out flaws or saying you are wrong.
I can't see this as proof.


The body stores energy saying that energy is being transfered after death can be considered decomposition and not the proof of spirits from where I sit. I do study on spirits and the like because I don't believe it but could be wrong. Science is and more than likely will be finite forever.

Can you prove to me otherwise?

Energy can't be destroyed though.

Energy is neither created nor destroyed

Therefore it's not a decomposition.

Why do you think science is finite?

I think that what we know about science could be finite but we don't know everything.

I agree with you that energy can't be destroyed. Energy is transferred from a dead human into decomposing matter. Energy is stored in the body till it doesn't exist as human any more but has given energy to other life forms such as bacteria. I really thought you'd get what I meant.

No, it doesn't "prove" or even indicate anything of the sort.

a reply to: knoledgeispower

(((I'm new to watching Bleach, I'm addicted though :p))))

I started reading it 12 or 13 years ago overseas in the military to pass time. I incorperated the name into my call sign. Not exactly like my screen name but claose. Every couple of months I will read up where the story is at.

You can check out my thread about my own paranormal experiences: My Paranormal Experiences & My Mom's experience in Malakwa, B.C

I am not saying yours or anyone elses personal experiences are phony, but I can't take them at face value either because we are talking about something that isn't testable or well documented. Even those that specialize in the field can't reach a consensus.

What I am talking about is independent verification, one of the mainstays of science. If it can be independently verified then I don't have to believe anyone I could verify it myself.

What universal laws are you talking about that the soul would have to follow? I am unsure which ones you are referring to.

Also, I'm wondering why you would think that if the soul existed it would need to be measured? I don't think that there would be any change in a soul's amount of energy

Well if you claim a soul is energy then that energy should be measurable if it can't be measured then where is the evidence that one even exists. Before anyone can claim the first law applies to souls you would need to verify that a soul is energy. If you can't measure that energy then how can anyone attribute the first law as proof of its existence.

As far as universal laws that would mean laws of thermodynamics even the law of gravity. The very first thing that needs to be done before anyone can claim a soul is subject to any laws is provide proof that a soul exists and be able to show the type of energy it is comprised of.

If someone could prove a soul exists and is comprised of XYZ energy then I think it would be something I would be motivated to independently verify myself.