Firefighter chases dog and both are missing 411?

originally posted by: research100
a reply to: diggindirt


they said they are doing tox...results will be back in 6 months, they must have something to work with....welll...unless the article is wrong

Could you give me a link to where the coroner mentioned toxicology tests? I'm not doubting your statement but I simply can't find a story that reports him mentioning toxicology tests, just that he would release a full report at some later date. I think I've read every link on this thread and have read dozens of other stories that mostly say the same thing, in fact could have all been written by the same hand.....lousy reporting all around in my opinion. If his body was such a condition to require dental records for identification, I'm doubting that toxicology tests are even possible or would be reliable.
I've just talked with one of my professors, the one who studied under Dr. Bass at UT, because I was sure this had caught his attention. In his opinion, from his experience, even in the conditions under which the remains were found, (arid climate) after two weeks there would be no soft tissues left undisturbed unless those tissues were sheltered from insect or animal predation. The only example he could come up with would be if he had ended up with an appendage under a bolder where the critters couldn't access the remains. But even then, the blood would probably be decomposed to point of being useless in toxicology terms.
What I still don't understand is the lack of carrion birds in the area? Why would they not be circling, telling the searchers where to look? I'll be the first to admit that I know nothing about the birds in that region but in our area the vultures show up within hours of a death.

a reply to: diggindirt

Ask and thou shall receive

Toxicology on Arcadia Firefighter

originally posted by: diggindirt
...What I still don't understand is the lack of carrion birds in the area? Why would they not be circling, telling the searchers where to look? I'll be the first to admit that I know nothing about the birds in that region but in our area the vultures show up within hours of a death.

I agree - that is puzzling.
Thanks for your thoughts on the physical deterioration/decay/etc...
I was also wondering at what kind/s of results they hoped/expected to get from toxicology...

a reply to: kathael

Kathael....thanks so much for finding the link...I have looked at so many articles I am about to go crosseyed, I know it was in one of my posts, just glad you answered it before I came back on here!!I don't have to track it down... I owe you one for sure!!

a reply to: kathael

Hi kathael:

I don't think this person (Stillman) has any love lost for firefighters. His response to Mike in his own blog seems rather harsh imho.

Then Stillman's comments in the other forum, (I guess without realizing Mike had contacted him previously, until it was brought to his attention by another poster), are even more harsh regarding firefighters being "sacred cows" and the money spent on the search, etc...why the hate?

Which is a round about way of saying I don't give a lot of credibility to the second hand reports of "Mike being high as a kite...".

I will wait for the toxicology report.

Anyway, thanks also to GreenMtnBoys for finding the links to those forums. Great catch.

a reply to: research100

Hahaha, too many tabs opened. I was all over the web earlier regarding that case..
additionally, David Paulides is so fascinating to listen to.

My turn to rest the eyes

Had anyone heard of recent Magdalena Glinkowski's death in Mt. Tamalpais State Park? (which was followed by another very strange death of a female hiker is nearly same location, very shortly after) The released cause of death was absolutely ridiculous and unbelievable. According to their "findings", the healthy, young, intelligent and fit woman basically froze to death...yeah, on a warm mid-April Sunday in SF Bay area, where people walk in tshirts and shorts, with park being full of people--not one of which heard any calls for help....not only she "froze to death" (aka died from "hypothermia") a MILE away from the parking lot, apparently she ended up in a deep ravine/canyon...yet showing no signs of trauma, according to them. Toxicology reports were clear and she went there for a run, basically, and was seen jogging on trail.

Ridiculous non-sense and lies about her simply dying from hypothermia. Shows how "accurate" and "believable" their findings are. They're holding onto their cushy state jobs... so they must come up with SOME causes of death, no matter how ridiculous it is. I don't believe their conclusion about Herdman. They do not possibly have enough reliable information to rule "accidental death". It's kind of outrageous they issue these "conclusions".

a reply to: abcd0000

It seems to me . . . that the old saw . . .

how does it go . . . when all the other possibilities have been ruled out, then maybe the impossible is what happened. . . . my paraphrase.

IF, as seems necessary in these David Paulides type cases . . .

SOMETHING VERY ATYPICAL is going on . . . of unknown dimensions and abilities as well as motives and methods . . .

THEN

it is plausible the woman was frozen . . . whether on a UFO ship . . . or via interdimensional transit or whatever.

I don't know if the officials were lying or not. I'm just saying I think we have to be careful what puzzle pieces we toss out

out of our own bias and sensibilities.

a reply to: BO XIAN

Hypothermia might have been her "final straw" cause of death...preceded by a chain of events I can not explain. The question is--if this was truly hypothermia death (I do not believe it--I believe this conclusion was simply to pacify the local taxpayers/relatives and tourists the local industry depends upon), how would a healthy person get to the point of having hypothermia on this warm day a mile away from car on a well-marked trail.

I myself had spent long hours unconscious, in the snow and subfreezine temperatures, with severe head injury, before I was rescued, and did not have any "hypothermia". I did have hypothermia while being out in the wilderness later, in winter conditions. It takes a lot to die from this. They're not telling the truth or not interested in finding the truth about what happened her. Theoretically she could fall/been pushed off into the ravine, and then freeze overnight, possibly, but then there WOULD be DETECTABLE injuries (they found her relatively fast).

Something is not right about these events...curiously the second woman (Sanner) who died on Mt. Tam this April had this happen to her right around Blood Moon night...and Herdman went missing on a rare full moon Friday 13th. Not saying anything...just weird coincidences.

originally posted by: FistOfFreedom
If anyone has a dusty copy of "Missing 411-Western United States & Canada" sitting around, could you let a poor friend borrow it for a short while? I would be so grateful!

I'm a fast reader

I have it, I'm nearly done with it. Where you at?

a reply to: kathael
Thanks for the link. Maybe I'm not losing my mind after all.
I knew I'd seen toxicology mentioned in one of the stories but had almost convinced myself that it was only mentioned in this thread.... I remembered thinking that if the time of death was close to time of disappearance, there would be no fluids left for such tests....

originally posted by: WanDash

originally posted by: diggindirt
...What I still don't understand is the lack of carrion birds in the area? Why would they not be circling, telling the searchers where to look? I'll be the first to admit that I know nothing about the birds in that region but in our area the vultures show up within hours of a death.

I agree - that is puzzling.
Thanks for your thoughts on the physical deterioration/decay/etc...
I was also wondering at what kind/s of results they hoped/expected to get from toxicology...

I was so puzzled by this lack of buzzards that I called my buddy back and asked him about it. His opinion is that by the time the searchers got there, the vultures could have already come and gone. This comes from his experience studying with Dr. Bass at UT. I won't go into the gory details but his opinion is based on direct observations. His answer, paraphrased, went something like this---"If the guy died on the side of that hill on the night he disappeared, the vultures knew about it by sunrise. By the time the searchers arrived, some 48 hours or more later, the vultures would have done their job and there would be no reason for them to return---especially when helicopters began invading their airspace."

originally posted by: randyvs
Just remember the reason Dean ruled out a fall, is because of the location of the body, not being near enough to a cliff face.

There are numerous cases in the 411 books where the body of the missing person is found below a sheer drop like a cliff or waterfall, with the body having sustained injuries consistent with a fall...and yet the place the body was found is too far from the base of the cliff for it to have been an accidental fall or even a suicidal running leap.

There is one case where the body of a woman was found below a waterfall, and the place where she impacted was so far out from the top of the falls that the word authorities used to describe what happened to her was not that she "fell" or "jumped" or even that she was "thrown"...they said she had been "launched".

Maybe it's just me but I found that choice of words to be very interesting. It gives the impression of an act of superlative strength.

originally posted by: Tsurugi

originally posted by: randyvs
Just remember the reason Dean ruled out a fall, is because of the location of the body, not being near enough to a cliff face.

There are numerous cases in the 411 books where the body of the missing person is found below a sheer drop like a cliff or waterfall, with the body having sustained injuries consistent with a fall...and yet the place the body was found is too far from the base of the cliff for it to have been an accidental fall or even a suicidal running leap.

There is one case where the body of a woman was found below a waterfall, and the place where she impacted was so far out from the top of the falls that the word authorities used to describe what happened to her was not that she "fell" or "jumped" or even that she was "thrown"...they said she had been "launched".

Maybe it's just me but I found that choice of words to be very interesting. It gives the impression of an act of superlative strength.

"launched" = **shivers**

That is the cause of death description that makes me almost obsessive about these cases...don't see many 'launched" to death cases in daily life.

Plus, nice of you to volunteer your book.

originally posted by: WanDash
a reply to: Missmissie173
Speaking of oddities...
Here's an anomaly (I presume) on Google Earth...
34°33'41.34"N 118°56'20.16"W - elevation 2,823', eye altitude 2,966'
The oddity... This 'geographic feature' is apparently 35' or so, in circumference at the base, yet extends upward 200' or so, to a peak.

Anyway - not used to seeing these kinds of anomalies on recent high resolution satellite images.
Then again, the feature is likewise in each of the satellite images back to 2003.

It is in the general vicinity of where they were hiking/camping, and/or where the body was found.

For those that aren't proficient at using Google Earth or Maps, here is a screenshot of the anomaly WanDash found:



It is pretty weird. And the area is incredibly rugged. Lots of giant boulders.

a reply to: GreenMtnBoys

the thing that makes me wonder about this case in regards to it being a missing 411 case is the weather following the disappearance. In nearly every single case David investigates there was some instance of major inclement weather immediately following the disappearance but, in this case that didn't happen. That doesn't rule it out as a 411 possibility but, it sticks in the back of my mind, making me wonder.

also, i've been trying to find an accurate picture or location for where his body was found. i think that is a very important piece to the puzzle. that picture in the article link you posted is kind of vague. like you said, is that the cliff there in the background that he supposedly fell from? or it that just a general landscape picture of the surrounding area? It's too hard to say what's what from that picture.

also, the comment from a poster on another forum stating that, he heard byars said "mike was high as a kite". that's way too far removed i think to take seriously at this point. i think drugs would be a nice convenient way for this situation to all make sense to people. and i can definitely see other detectives looking at this case thinking, "their must have been foul play involved" because again, it would tie everything up more neatly and conveniently. Detectives tend to have tunnel vision in that regard and the same applies to those who would suggest that the men's wives were somehow involved in a foul play scenario as well.

We'll have to wait for more details to come through after the tox screen comes back. I just have a hard time believing that Mike was high and that's what spawned all of this and I would have to admit that I would be surprised if that were the case. Plus from my understanding Firefighters are administered random drug testing. Plus he was setting up camp when he ran after his dog. One usually waits till after camp is setup, all your prep work is done, light a fire, then you take your hallucinogens or what have you. You don't get high as a kite and then setup your camp. just sayin....

lastly, do you have a source for that comment about someone hearing screams or voices from a nearby cave after Mike had gone missing? THAT i find intriguing!

and lets not forget that S&R had k-9 units out there AND PICKED UP NO SCENT OR TRAIL. that is EXTREMELY bizarre. regardless of what scenario happened out there, S&R would/should still be able to TRACK mike's movements starting from the campsite where he ran from. they found 1 barefoot track and that was it. No tracks? No scent? NOT normal.

a reply to: Tsurugi

and that sure is one hell of an anomaly. it really looks like it's a glitch. wonder if that's an actual geographical feature or not.

originally posted by: CallmeRaskolnikov

no one has mentioned this ....but....if herdman just ran off after the dog that night and fell off the cliff,wouldn't Byars have heard a scream, he was there looking for him,,,,,the river runs in a steep canyon......which begs many questions ...did he fall, if so when did he fall....if there is a time gap,where was he ........

you guys bring up an excellent points. and i think that is a significant factor in all of this. if he ran off and his friend ran off soon after. wouldn't he still be able to hear him, wouldn't they be playing marco, polo, with their voices in the woods? wouldn't his friend have heard him screaming, falling to his death?

Also, I've been wondering about the whole "running off after the dog" thing...who chases their dog, seriously? Dogs are effing fast; chasing a medium or large sized dog over open flat ground not easy, chances are it will get away from you. Chasing a dog through the bush is impossible, they can dash through places where a human would have to stop and crawl to get through, or go around. They can be out of sight in seconds. Chasing a dog through the bush at night(even a bright night with a full moon) wearing shorts and no shoes is not only impossible, it's crazy.

Is that really what happened?

A normal, non-crazy person whose dog bolted into the night might trot a small distance away from camp while barefoot, moving in the direction the dog went and calling its name, but they would know the dog would be impossible to catch. I could even believe a non-crazy person might slowly pick his way around the area while barefoot, but the main thing they would do to retrieve the dog would be to call its name, whistle, clap, and so on, making all the noises humans normally do when calling their dogs. I cannot honestly believe a person would just run silently into the dark to chase after their dog while barefoot. That's insane.

Even a person who thought it would be a good idea to run full out after their dog through the desert scrub at night would still occasionally call the dog in the hopes that it would return voluntarily, wouldn't they?

The point I'm trying to make is that if Herdman was actually chasing his dog, he would have been noisy. Either calling and shouting and whistling etc., or crashing through the bush like a crazed rhinoceros, Byars should have been able to easily track his progress by ear, even if he stayed at the camp.

a reply to: Tsurugi

i agree wholeheartedly. that's something a couple of others here have brought up too and it's really a valid point. aside from there being no tree cover, it was essentially a full moon as well. so herdman shouldn't have been that easy to lose. he would have been making a lot of noise trying to stop or call his dog. and those noises should have been easy for byars to hear and use to locate mike. you're not going to go very far very fast barefoot. that kind of terrain is hell on bare feet. not to mention that the ground probably retained a fair amount of heat from the day. So it would have been hot and rough terrain.

originally posted by: GreenMtnBoysOne of the posts says Byars told the police mike was "high as a kite". If so Herdman is an idiot and not quite the outdoor guy everyone has made him out to be. One reason why I stay away from drugs. Drugs would make ALOT of sense in this story. But it still doesn't explain it. Another poster says most detectives off the record suspect foul play.

Herdman being stoned makes it even less likely that he would have made it all the way to the top of that ridge barefoot in the dark, IMO. Plus, he was a firefighter, they are tested regularly, and obviously he had passed up to this point which makes him unlikely to be a drug addict. Taking some on this hiking trip would have been seriously risking losing his job.

People do stupid things, so can't rule it out completely...but without serious evidence I think the possibility drugs were involved is very faint.