Firefighter chases dog and both are missing 411?

originally posted by: CallmeRaskolnikov
and lets not forget that S&R had k-9 units out there AND PICKED UP NO SCENT OR TRAIL. that is EXTREMELY bizarre. regardless of what scenario happened out there, S&R would/should still be able to TRACK mike's movements starting from the campsite where he ran from. they found 1 barefoot track and that was it. No tracks? No scent? NOT normal.

In poking around the comments sections of the various articles about this case, I have seen quite a few people say they think the authorities have screened Byars' story. Meaning, Byars told them stuff that wasn't passed on to the media.

I find this to be plausible. As told to the media his story is so full of ridiculous holes he should have been suspected from the start. Instead, authorities made a point right from the beginning to say he was not a suspect, which makes me think they know more than they're letting on.

What did Byars really say?

“The injuries were significant enough that when the fall occurred it caused immediate death,” said Armando Chavez, chief deputy medical examiner. “He’d fallen off the edge of a mountain or a cliff.”

The length of time before Herdman was found makes it impossible to pinpoint when the fall happened, Chavez said.

“The condition of the body just indicates that he’s been dead for days,” he said. “We don’t know if it was the day the search began or the day he became separated from his friend, that’s something we can’t be certain.”

www.sgvtribune.com...

originally posted by: roadgravel

Yeah. Note cliff in background. Supposedly he fell from that thing. Meaning he first had to climb it? Barefoot? While looking for his dog, because dogs are always scaling cliffs when they run off in the dark....

World class crapping reporting or police cover up. Probably the latter.

a reply to: Tsurugi

I had thought that the next morning he might have found a path to that elevation so he could look down over a larger area for his dog. That seems like a futile idea though after many hours.

definitely holes in the reporting. and i wouldn't doubt that byars might have said somethings that the police didn't want to pass on to the public. i find that to be very plausible.

a reply to: roadgravel
It does seem futile.

Another thing to remember is that there were tracking dogs involved in the search, including, later on, cadaver dogs. Those dogs can sniff out a human corpse from miles away even if it's buried. How come they couldn't locate Herdman's body less than a mile from his campsite and laying out in the open?

a reply to: Tsurugi

Meaning he first had to climb it

Have the authorities stated that? The pic only shows a section of the cliff maybe there is a more easily accessible path? Also maybe he climbed it in the morning with his buddy with proper gear than something went wrong and he was thrown either accidentally or purposely? Is the cliff drivable?

Either way , to many assumptions with the little information out in regards to the events from what I seen to make any determination.

As it has been stated in this thread which I'm leaning towards, the authorities are purposely releasing certain information perhaps to lead Byars into a trap?

a reply to: interupt42
Yes. The point I was making is that the given story is a bit unbelievable.

As for the possible scenarios you propose, none of those explain why the tracking dogs could not find him.

originally posted by: Tsurugi
a reply to: interupt42
Yes. The point I was making is that the given story is a bit unbelievable.

As for the possible scenarios you propose, none of those explain why the tracking dogs could not find him.

I'm no expert by any means on any of this but as far as I know Cadaver Dogs might have an extremely high success rate but I don't think they have a 100% success rate?

I assume the environment,location,wind, timing and many other things would play on the likelihood of a dog finding a body.

For we know the body was found earlier and at a different location than we were told and it might have been to see Byars reaction and see if he altered his story?

originally posted by: seahawkshos040

originally posted by: NoRulesAllowed

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: seahawkshos040
I agree.
Even more of mystery and even more of a perfect fit for
Mr. Palides' criteria.

a little kid can add 1+1 together: RUGGED TERRAIN, BAREFOOT, SHORTS...
(Someone posted the maps and the first thing catching my eyes were the hills at the side of the river)

Do you really need bigfoot, the devil or aliens to explain this?

not saying its any of those things but you would have to be out of your mind to hike up a 1200 foot cliff at night in rugged terrain without shoes because your dog might be up there. unless that dog #s gold there has to be another explanation

because it all fits in very easily,so far,into Paulides book.a light can lure the dogs away,and may kill or zap them.the humans are scared to death by unusual activity,and captured by things not understood.my husband,navy and I saw impossible lights in sky.it floored him,as beyond our current physics.

Anyone know if the dogs can be used to Backtrack? Could they start the dogs where his body was found and follow the route that led him to where he was found? Doing so might reveal why he was supposedly on a cliff.

Maybe he disturbed someone who was doing something bad and they chased him. If he's the savvy kind of guy that we're led to believe then maybe; if he was being chased; he deliberately avoided leading his pursuers back to his camp?

As mentioned by others, and having had dogs of my own, I do not believe that this guy ran SILENTLY into the night chasing his dog! If a person wants their dog to come back they call to it.

originally posted by: Tsurugi

It is pretty weird. And the area is incredibly rugged. Lots of giant boulders.

Thanks for taking a look and then getting a pic' of it for others to see.!

Trying to use the screenshot that is purported to be of the area where the body was found (that includes the chopper), I have continued to come up short of finding that exact location on Google Earth.
Anyone-else with any luck?

originally posted by: CallmeRaskolnikov
a reply to: Tsurugi

and that sure is one hell of an anomaly. it really looks like it's a glitch. wonder if that's an actual geographical feature or not.

Likewise shows, in 6/4/1994, 6/2/2002, 6/4/2002, 7/14/2003, 12/30/2005, 1/26/2006, 8/7/2006, 9/27/2007 and 6/5/2009 satellite images.
I would really like to know if anyone that has hiked this area, can give insight.
Looks like some geomagnetic anomaly, or...alien antenna...or buried cathedral...or something.

Mkay, guys. This is moving very fast and my 12 hours shifts make it hard to keep up but I'm gonna try and put a few thoughts I've had catching up on what's been happening.

First and foremost I want to say I give absolutely NO credence to the post stating someone overheard Byars tell police Herdman was high. That's BS simply because if that was true, the media would have been all over it like jackals over a corpse. We know the media. We know they love a story. Especially one they can drag on and on and on for as long as possible.
Man goes missing! Man found! Missing man may have been "high as a kite!"

a reply to: Answer

Answer, I'm assuming he climbed the cliff the first night because that is what I believe to be logical. However, have to make it clear that I don't believe he climbed the cliff the first night, just that it is what is logical.
And I say this because if he had been in the wilderness for any number of hours (not even days), he would know he's lost and know that his best chance of survival is to park it and wait for the SAR. It's what I would do. It is beyond belief that a man who MAY have been missing for days (shoddy reporting ¬_¬) decided to climb a mountain tired, hungry, barefoot and lost. There's no fathomable reason.
Taking the fact that he wouldn't have climbed the cliff later on into account, I can only posit that he was up there the first night, and remained there. But, as I say, I do not believe that's what happened.

originally posted by: diggindirt
Here's the problem with that statement---you haven't actually heard Byar's story have you? You have only what some reporters have written.

Thank you, diggin. A point I've made several times and one that keeps slipping people's minds. I'd go further and add that what the reports have written is simply what the authorities have told them.
Here's Byars' story (or what we know of it):

1. We were hiking.
2. We were setting up camp.
3. Duke took off. Herdman ran after him.
4. Waited a bit then started searching.
5. Got lost.
6. Met some fishermen two days later.
7. They helped me to the car where I drove to the sheriff.

That's all we have of Byars' story. Literally. Now, do you honestly think the guys interviewing Byars heard all that and said, "Well, that answers all of our questions! Let's get up to the park and have a look for him!"
Hell no they wouldn't! If Byars' had piddled out that garbage, he'd have been held for a very, very long time and almost certainly under suspicion of murder. The facts we have certainly don't add up. But whatever Byars' told the police made them happily release him and publicly state he was not under suspicion.
I dunno if you know police, but they very rarely make comments like that unless they're sure, because if it does turn out the person they let go was in fact guilty, it reflects badly, and possibly leads to internal investigations having to be performed.
Byars told his interviewer a story that they have not divulged to the media, nor to us.

And an aside... what are the laws regarding international FOIA requests? As a Brit am I able to make a FOIA of the medical examiners report? Or the interview notes from Byars' debrief? I have no idea if I can because I'm not an American citizen.

originally posted by: JackofBlades
...First and foremost I want to say I give absolutely NO credence to the post stating someone overheard Byars tell police Herdman was high. That's BS simply because if that was true, the media would have been all over it like jackals over a corpse. We know the media. We know they love a story. Especially one they can drag on and on and on for as long as possible.
Man goes missing! Man found! Missing man may have been "high as a kite!" ...

I agree with your rationale regarding what the media would do with something juicy like this...
Conversely, there are very few 'reasons' that could/can explain such out-of-the-ordinary behavior as...something that can make people think/act out-of-the-ordinary...like PCP, hallucinogens, and/or something that could/would give the feeling of super-hero strength & ability.
I give a minimum of weight to this possibility...primarily because of the dog running off...(unless the dog got accidentally/forcefully 'high', as well, or was frightened by heretofore unseen behavior coming from Herdman).

...Taking the fact that he wouldn't have climbed the cliff later on into account, I can only posit that he was up there the first night, and remained there. But, as I say, I do not believe that's what happened. ...

If he climbed the cliff/rock face...I'm guessing it would have been the same night he departed camp.
We don't know if Byars ever heard him call/calling for Duke...or for Byars...and that suggests strongly (to me), that whatever happened took place shortly after leaving the campsite. (again - barefoot - no flashlight, presumably - already exhausted or-at-least somewhat depleted from two days of hiking)

...
I would like to see whatever data (report, interviews &/or notes if possible, etc...), as well.
I don't know the ropes of the FOIA game, though...and will have to look into the requirements.

a reply to: JackofBlades
AFAIK FOIA requests may only be filed by a citizen of the U.S.

But I'm not even certain it applies here, because FOIA law applies to federal agencies only. They can't be filed against a Sheriff, or local police, or city coroner, unless the state in question has its own FOIA legislation.

originally posted by: interupt42

originally posted by: Tsurugi
a reply to: interupt42
Yes. The point I was making is that the given story is a bit unbelievable.

As for the possible scenarios you propose, none of those explain why the tracking dogs could not find him.

I'm no expert by any means on any of this but as far as I know Cadaver Dogs might have an extremely high success rate but I don't think they have a 100% success rate?

Nothing has a 100% success rate. The dogs have a very high success rate, but they do fail on occasion.

However, I am willing to bet that on those times when the dogs do fail, the body is not subsequently discovered laying in the open less than a mile away. That just doesn't make any sense at all.

I assume the environment,location,wind, timing and many other things would play on the likelihood of a dog finding a body.

A barefoot man will leave a very strong track for a bloodhound. The only thing that will degrade that track quickly is heavy precipitation, which did not happen here. The searchers found barefoot tracks near the campsite, how is it the dogs could not follow from there? It makes absolutely no sense at all.

A decomposing human body has a very strong and singular scent, and wind in the desert changes direction regularly. The area should have been saturated with the scent of the body, it should have been easy for those dogs to find it.

For we know the body was found earlier and at a different location than we were told and it might have been to see Byars reaction and see if he altered his story?

Maybe, but I don't think so. Byars' story as related through the media is so full of holes, it would have been completely understandable if he were under suspicion. But from the beginning, everyone made it clear he was not a suspect. If that was supposed to be a trick, it doesn't seem to have been a very good one, because they didn't even know at the beginning if Herdman was alive or dead, and if he was dead they couldn't be certain they'd locate the body.

originally posted by: Tsurugi
A decomposing human body has a very strong and singular scent, and wind in the desert changes direction regularly. The area should have been saturated with the scent of the body, it should have been easy for those dogs to find it.

Agreed.
I've watched my dogs smell a sent thats down wind from them! How they do it I dont know, but they do.
If a body is decomposing then trained dogs would not be able to miss it, they should have been dragging their handlers to it!

Things just dont add up, I have to wonder just who is being played!

I wonder if the authorities checked the top of the cliff for footprints, dog prints or anything that looked as through some slid off over the edge. I get the impression they based the results on their assumptions.

Some crazy living out there could have tossed him over.