Greatest Conjunction aka Bethlehem Star

Disclaimer: In this OP I will leave out much that I will supply later on as the thread progresses, stuff like details into astrological significance of this astronomical phenomenon, detailed biblical references and secular observations and stuff relating to how our calendars have changed over time and explanations of this and how there are pockets of lost time and days being left out or added at times of calibration, change and inter-calculating different calendrical systems up through the ages. I'll pick these subjects up as they become relevant in the discussion of the subject at hand.

When the Church figured it would be natural to introduce a new calendar and start the time off at the date for the Birth of Christ, they weren't especially thorough in their research. Or so it seems. 'Anno Domine' or the 'Year of the Lord' 1AD can't possibly be the correct year for the Saviour's birth. Not only is it four years after Herod the Great died and the mention of Quirinius of Syria simply doesn't make any sense, the astronomical events recorded had happened about six years before 1AD. But sometimes between 7 and 5BC (depending on the source) there happened something in the constellation of Pisces sometime around 6BC, a triple conjunction between Saturn and Jupiter over a period of about a year, that happens once every millennium and happened to coincide with the dawn of a new astrological age, the Age of Pisces, which happens once every 2160 years.

First let's go through the terms and the difference between a 'Great Conjunction' and the 'Greatest Conjunction':

en.wikipedia.org...

A Great Conjunction is a conjunction of the planets Jupiter and Saturn. The last Great Conjunction took place on May 31, 2000, while the next one will be in late December 2020. Great Conjunctions take place regularly, every 18–20 years, as a result of the combined ~12-year orbital period of Jupiter around the Sun, and Saturn's ~30-year orbital period. The 2000 conjunction fell within mere weeks after both had passed conjunction with the Sun, and it was very difficult to observe without visual aid because the two planets rose only 30–45 minutes before sunrise, depending upon the location of the observer.

Greatest conjunction is a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn at or near their opposition to the Sun. In this scenario, Jupiter and Saturn will occupy the same position in right ascension on three separate occasions over a period of a few months. Such tripled occurrences are actually known as triple conjunctions.

The below is from a table I found HERE, and it shows dates for what is called 'Great Conjunctions' or triple conjunctions between Saturn and Jupiter from the 'Star of Bethlehem' to the last one which was between 1980 to 1981. The table below originally contains all conjunctions between Jupiter and Saturn, but I have isolated the Great conjunctions and left the others out. Also, for the negative numbers, 1BC is 0, so -1 becomes 2BC and -6 is 7BC, also the datestamps seem a bit odd, but it's good for illustration:


THE JUPITER-SATURN CONJUNCTION
(GEOCENTRIC TROPICAL ZODIAC)
600 BCE to 2400 CE
copyright 1998-1999 by Richard Nolle
all rights reserved
www.astropro.com... - [email protected]

+-------------+----------+-----+---------+--------+
| DATE | TIME | ARC | JUPITER | SATURN |
+-------------+----------+-----+---------+--------+

|MAY 29, -6 | 09:13 AM | 000 | 20PI56 | 20PI56 |
|OCT 01, -6 | 06:02 AM | 000 | 17PI25R | 17PI25R|
|DEC 05, -6 | 02:46 PM | 000 | 15PI34 | 15PI34 |

|NOV 28, 332 | 02:29 AM | 000 | 05LI36 | 05LI36 |
|APR 22, 333 | 04:55 PM | 000 | 02LI10R | 02LI10R|
|JUN 15, 333 | 08:22 PM | 000 | 00LI57 | 00LI57 |

|AUG 28, 411 | 08:28 PM | 000 | 04GE08 | 04GE08 |
|NOV 02, 411 | 09:58 AM | 000 | 02GE32R | 02GE32R|
|MAR 11, 412 | 08:42 AM | 000 | 29TA13 | 29TA13 |

|JAN 14, 452 | 06:20 AM | 000 | 22LI43 | 22LI43 |
|MAR 17, 452 | 02:10 PM | 000 | 21LI13R | 21LI13R|
|AUG 03, 452 | 07:25 AM | 000 | 17LI54 | 17LI54 |

|SEP 13, 709 | 07:41 PM | 000 | 22CA53 | 22CA53 |
|FEB 04, 710 | 11:30 PM | 000 | 19CA33R | 19CA33R|
|MAR 30, 710 | 04:44 PM | 000 | 18CA20 | 18CA20 |

|JUN 25, 967 | 12:44 PM | 000 | 17AR34 | 17AR34 |
|OCT 06, 967 | 09:30 AM | 000 | 14AR42R | 14AR42R|
|JAN 04, 968 | 05:51 AM | 000 | 12AR09 | 12AR09 |

|NOV 08, 1007 | 00:25 AM | 000 | 13VI05 | 13VI05 |
|MAR 07, 1008 | 02:38 AM | 000 | 10VI23R | 10VI23R|
|JUN 01, 1008 | 05:23 PM | 000 | 08VI28 | 08VI28 |

|DEC 25, 1305 | 11:23 AM | 000 | 00SC49 | 00SC49 |
|APR 20, 1306 | 01:48 PM | 000 | 28LI05R | 28LI05R|
|JUL 19, 1306 | 11:11 AM | 000 | 26LI01 | 26LI01 |

|FEB 14, 1425 | 01:39 PM | 000 | 17SC18 | 17SC18 |
|MAR 18, 1425 | 08:40 AM | 000 | 16SC33R | 16SC33R|
|AUG 26, 1425 | 07:19 AM | 000 | 12SC40 | 12SC40 |

|OCT 24, 1682 | 07:35 AM | 000 | 19LE09 | 19LE09 |
|FEB 09, 1683 | 01:28 AM | 000 | 16LE43R | 16LE43R|
|MAY 18, 1683 | 05:48 AM | 000 | 14LE30 | 14LE30 |

|AUG 08, 1940 | 01:21 AM | 000 | 14TA27 | 14TA27 |
|OCT 20, 1940 | 04:38 AM | 000 | 12TA28R | 12TA28R|
|FEB 15, 1941 | 06:38 AM | 000 | 09TA07 | 09TA07 |

|DEC 31, 1980 | 09:17 PM | 000 | 09LI30 | 09LI30 |
|MAR 04, 1981 | 06:55 PM | 000 | 08LI06R | 08LI06R|
|JUL 24, 1981 | 04:13 AM | 000 | 04LI56 | 04LI56 |

|SEP 07, 2238 | 04:35 PM | 000 | 06CA38 | 06CA38 |
|JAN 13, 2239 | 11:25 AM | 000 | 03CA25R | 03CA25R|
|MAR 22, 2239 | 07:59 PM | 000 | 01CA41 | 01CA41 |

|FEB 06, 2279 | 05:25 PM | 000 | 25SC59 | 25SC59 |
|MAY 07, 2279 | 05:59 AM | 000 | 23SC51R | 23SC51R|
|AUG 31, 2279 | 02:24 PM | 000 | 21SC07 | 21SC07 |

+-------------+----------+-----+---------+--------+
NOTES:
BCE = Before Common Era (aka BC)
CE = Common Era (aka AD)
R = Retrograde


[Continued below....]

Source for my Table above ==> www.astropro.com...
Wikipedia on Great/Greatest Conjunction ==> en.wikipedia.org...
Wikipedia on Triple Conjunctions ==> en.wikipedia.org...

OP Page 1/2

Apparently there are five such Great (triple) Conjunctions between Saturn and Jupiter each millennium, and they supposedly represented the classical elements, there are five of them: Aer (Air), Ignis (Fire), Terra (Earth), Aqua (Water) and Ether (Mystery, Spirit). There seem to be an inconcistency in how this system is explained, so my explanation is one among quite a few. Below is another:

en.wikipedia.org...

As successive great conjunctions occur nearly 120° apart, their appearances form a triangular pattern. In a series every fourth conjunction returns after some 60 years in the vicinity of the first. These returns are observed to be shifted by some 7-8°, so no more than four of them occur in the same zodiacal sign. To each sign astrologers have ascribed one from the series of four elements and thus four triplicities or 'trigons' are formed.[citation needed] Particular importance has been accorded to the occurrence of a great conjunction in a new trigon, which is bound to happen after some 200 years at most.[7] Even greater importance was attributed to the beginning of a new cycle after all fours trigons had been visited, something which happens in about 800 years.

Below pic is an example of how Kepler interpreted it:



The triple conjunction of around 6BC completed the former four elements with the Ether alignment, and this Fifth Element Incarnate turned out to be a certain Rabbi Jesua bar Joseph who was born sometime within the timespace of those three alignments somewhere between 7 BC and 5BC (given which calendar you choose to follow). This concluding set of three conjunctions around 6BC would be called 'The Greatest Conjunction' and would mark the end of the former Age into a new Age or a new Day or Eon etc. there are many words or names of it.

ETA: From 7BC to 1940 the whole circle is full of trigons and starts another cycle. Approximately 120 Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions with about 3° (arc degrees) distance in between or 2 and 2/3rd rounds round the zodiac, I'll provide an illustration for this later on. Please remind me if I forget it.. /ETA

My aim with this thread is to explore the implications of dating inconsistencies and the problems with dating ancient astronomical phenomena due to changes in calendars and dating, when a new year started and at which hour the day starts and so on. It's a bloody mess to say the least. Also, I would like to ask rhetorically:

What happened in:
7BC, in 967AD and in 1940AD???

OP page 2/2

Interesting thread ..I wanted to mark it and drop a series of vids by Micheal Rood on the Jews calender .From what I have gathered its not like any other but is a combination of a few things .One element was the Barley Harvest . Not sure if this has much relevance to what you are putting out but thought I would throw it into the mix

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Well, anything dealing with calendars and the Bible is relevant in order to place the Star of Bethlehem more correctly I suppose. Thanks for contributing.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

OR.......

Maybe the "Star of Bethlehem" is nothing more than Caesar's Comet, that was usurped by Christians and used to illuminate the Nativity Story and distract the masses from Julius Caesar's deification.

Caesar's Comet was perhaps the most famous comet of antiquity. The seven-day visitation was taken by Romans as a sign of the deification of the recently dead dictator, Julius Caesar (100–44 BC).[2]
Caesar's Comet was one of only five comets known to have had a negative absolute magnitude and was possibly the brightest daylight comet in recorded history.[3] It was not periodic and may have disintegrated.

(Watch the video on mute)

I've always felt (well not always) that the timetable we follow is incorrect in reference to A.D.

Guess I've never had the nerve or will to push myself into gathering the data and do what you're doing.
I believe we really need this in light of viewing our history correctly and for future predictions with more accuracy per a zodiacal "year". The ancients knew this, at least some of them.

I'm curious per your rhetoric question. Are you implying that in 7BC the symbolic Bethlehem Star(Star of the house of bread, "lachama"/ in your terms: The greatest conjunction) signified a start of a new age in zodiacal terms? Or something else?

Edit to add:
I like this thread and thank you for your hard work. Keep on digging.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

After having recalculated the numbers I realised the pic I had posted earlier was inaccurate.

Below you can see an estimate of how Kepler's drawing could have looked like had he completed his drawing which I posted the 'OP 2/2':



144 points connected by 144 lines at 122°30' angles, based on average conjunctions between Saturn's orbit of 30 years and Jupiter at 12 years (. Don't know if it's relevant and it certainly isn't correct but it shows the estimated look of the 144-pointed star that emerges after a complete cycle of ideal Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions.

originally posted by: Sump3
Are you implying that in 7BC the symbolic Bethlehem Star(Star of the house of bread, "lachama"/ in your terms: The greatest conjunction) signified a start of a new age in zodiacal terms? Or

Well, not quite, but around the same time. There are different ways to calculate the coming of new astrological ages, the method I use uses rough estimates, and it goes like this:

Every 72 years the Sun rise 1° backwards in the zodiac at vernal equinox compared to year 1. Each astrological house is 30° wide, meaning that:

One astrological age is 72 x 30 = 2160 years.
And 12 astrological ages are completed in 12 x 2160 = 25,920

To top this Jupiter has an orbital period of 12 years, and Saturn 30 years, so the pattern of Great conjunctions fits nicely with the above mentioned 'precession of equinoxes'

Between 7BC and 1981AD there are 12 triple ("Greater" or "Greatest") conjunctions and roughly 120 all in all. For anyone with experience with astrology these funny-numbers show up all the time

ETA:

originally posted by: Sump3
Edit to add:
I like this thread and thank you for your hard work. Keep on digging.

To be honest it wasn't very hard work, a few hours sifting through webpages and playing with tables and numbers, but yeah, it took a few hours but I love this kind of research. Thanks for the kind words

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Try thinking of it in terms of music, and it's intervals.

Ever heard of the "trend" A = 432hz that's been revolving around the internet for quite some time now?

Well, the world is music and acts in accordance to it. So matter assembles itself in the order of intervals (ladders).

This particular system A = 432 includes those numbers you speak of and I've found it to be the system that ties in with how matter assembles itself.

Try it for yourself. For example: To go up one octave (whole step, from note A to the next A above, you'll just double it's value). To go up a fifth you'll use multiply it by 1.5, divide to go down a fifth.

So using A = 432 / 1.5 and you'll get D = 288 hz, divide by 2 = 144 hz, and again divide by 2 and you'll get 72 hz.

----------------------------
I've found that this is in conjunction with the ratio Phi and this system is built upon it.

Hope this helps you somewhat if you grasp it, took me a little practice to get the interval calculations and get familiarized with the "note ladder/jacob's ladder". Took me even more time to master it all.

Maybe this will help: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Note that that particular response is partly in relation to that specific thread topic.

a reply to: Sump3

Hehe. Apparently those numbers are what I refer to as funny-numbers and I see them as proof of creative interference with our solar system and our particular planet. I have written quite a bit on these numbers, below is a teaser to the whole thing and how it relates to Pythagoras:
==> www.abovetopsecret.com...

These numbers are also at the heart of what revelation speaks of. Below is another thread I have on these numbers and how it connects to the Apocalypse:
==> www.abovetopsecret.com...
PS: There is a mistake in the OP, mixed up the numbers and units, 1/21 should be read as 1/18.

ETA: Jacob's ladder of chords and intervals reminds me of Leonard Cohen and his song Hallelujah: "They say there was a secret chord, that David played and it pleased the LORD [...] It goes like this: The fourth, the fifth, the minor fall and the major lift, the baffled king composing Hallelujah...." Sounds familiar?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Indeed It is of course a great song.

I will scope through those threads and will return in the morning to see how your thread pans along.

Blessings be upon you.

originally posted by: Sump3
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Indeed

It is of course a great song.

Most certainly is, indeed.

I will scope through those threads and will return in the morning to see how your thread pans along.

Blessings be upon you.

Read through a few of the posts in that thread you referred to about the number 322 and I can totally relate with a few of them. Learned something new too. Loved the 3 over 33 over 666 ABIF one, haven't seen it before.

Ok op I remember watching this vid and he uses the scientific method to track it down . Probably the best one I have come across

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Have you ever seen the orbs of light that often fly around in the atmosphere? Some consider them UFOs, most dont even believe in there existance. Ive seen them myself on two occassions, and one of them broke into three separate units while following my grandparent's car, in the middle of no where at night.

I believe these entities are angels. Some may be good, some evil, but they seem travel in trans-dimensional vehicles that seem to defy our laws of physics. When they fly high in the sky, they look just like stars. In fact, the word star comes from the Mesopotamian word stur (the Chaldean god of saturn). Throughout the bible, angels are often called stars.

In the case if the "star of Bethlehem", I believe the moving "star" was actually an angel.

Jesus' birth was forshadowed by the Hebrew meter. His birth was scheduled for 4BC (4103 years after Adam's fall).

6,117 years , give or take a yr,,

but year 6000,,, i thought 6000,,years,(,or six days,), was the completion off,
mans troubles/labours,,,, and then 1000 years of piece?


would seem a bit late?

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Utnapisjtim
In fact, the word star comes from the Mesopotamian word stur (the Chaldean god of saturn). Throughout the bible, angels are often called stars.

In the case if the "star of Bethlehem", I believe the moving "star" was actually an angel.

I can understand how you can arrive at some of your conclusions when looking at how you treat words

The word star is not derived from the Chaldean word for Saturn transliterated so it looks similar. No, Eng. Star comes from Norse Stjerna via old high German words like Stern and Old Swedish Sterro, Old English: Steorra. This -rr- stem to replace the n-stem is modern.

Further you see the same word in Gr 'Aster' Lat 'Stella', they all come from the PIE *Ster, and see it in Persian Setare as in the name Esther - Star. In Sanskrit the S was lost and it became Taras.

Our word for star is ancient, and there has always been a word for star in Indo European languages that looks and sounds like our modern Star.

originally posted by: Sump3

The greatest conjunction signified a start of a new age in zodiacal terms?

If you go back to the table in the OP, and you will se that the Greater Conjunctions (each fifth set of triple conjunction) that happens roughly every 1000 years, show up with intervals of about 30°:

7 BC: Medio Pisces
967 AD: Medio Aries
1940 AD: Medio Taurus

Made an illustration of it below:



As you see, If I had plotted all the other Greatest conjunctions (every fifth triplet) it appears we would end up with a twelve-pointed star more or less. However, I cannot double check since my tables aren't large enough, but I assume this pattern continues 'round the clock.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

According to the below diagram, things are a bit different than in my example. Here they use 40 static intervals per "millennium" and distribute them evenly around the zodiak, while I use an ideal orbital periods of Jupiter (12 years) and Saturn (30 years) to plot an ideal cycle of 144 conjunctions over a much longer period, and like I said in my last post, I suspect a pattern emerging, but I may be wrong, for going backwards, it seems to get mixed up again. The pattern of shifting constellation every fifth triplet, doesn't seem to quite fit the dates given below, so my assumption may simply be based on a coincidence. According to my suspicion, the 861 BC triplet should have been in Aquarius, and not 978 BC. Further, 1536 BC should have been Capricorn had my calculations been right. I wonder what kind of records or calculation they are using. Nevertheless, well worth considering:


(Image from the site below)

BCE triple conjunctions took place in 4892 (in Pisces), 4753 (in Scorpio), 4594-3 (in Taurus), 4336 (in Aquarius), 4296-5 (in Cancer), 3919-18 (in Aries), 3780 (in Sagittarius), 3442-1 (in Cancer), 3363-2 (in Pisces), 3323-2 (in Cancer), 3065-4 (in Aries), 2807 (in Leo), 2767 (in Gemini), 2509 (in Pisces), 2469-8 (in Leo), 2350-49 (in Leo), 2092 (in Taurus), 1794-3 (in Cancer), 1536 (in Aries), 1496-5 (in Virgo-Leo), 1376 (in Virgo), 1119 (in Gemini), 978 (in Aquarius), 861, 821, 563-2 (in Taurus), 523-2, 146-5 and 7 BCE. Cyrus II, the Great, was born c. 600 to 576 and died August 530 BCE. He reigned from 559 BCE till his death. His birth and establishment of the Persian Empire are claimed to have been predicted in Jewish prophecy.

CE triple conjunctions took place in 332-3, 411-12, 452, 709-10, 967-68 (in Pisces), 1007 - 1008, 1305 - 1306, 1425, 1682 - 1683, 1940-41 (in Aries), and again in 1980 - 1981 CE. Future triple conjunctions will be in 2238 - 2239 and 2279 CE.

zoroastrianastrology.blogspot.no...


ETA: Meanwhile in the Renaissance: Kepler has more to say on Trigons and Jesus:

In December, 1603, Kepler observed a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn taking place in Sagittarius in the morning sky. The observation led him to calculate that such conjunctions took place in 800 year cycles and that one such conjunction would have taken place some 1600 years prior to his time, that is in 6 or 7 BCE.

Kepler wrote: "The magi were of Chaldea, where astrology was born, of which this is a dictum: Great conjunctions of planets in cardinal points especially in equinoctual points of Aries and Libra signify a universal change of affairs; and a cometary star appearing at the same time tells of the rise of a king." (Kepleri opera omnia 4.347).

I may be completely wrong here, but I was unable to figure out much detail about future Saturn-Jupiter Trigons, but I did find one in the 28th century, and if my assumptions are correct it will happen in 2795 AD and it will be in Gemini if my calculations are correct:



If this is how God counts days ("one day equals a thousand years" or more precisely, around 800 years), the next millennium is to be the Sabbath (started in 1981, party on!!!), the seventh day of the week. And if it is so that the the year 2795 AD will mark the final end of this Era of the Tree of Knowledge, then what does God have up his sleave for the grand finale? Below is a few astronomical events due to occur in the 29th century. Take note of the last one in the list. Now that sounds like Armagheddon....

According to Wikipedia, the 29th century will produce quite a few astronomical events. This is quite amazing:

March 25, 2816: At 15:47 UTC Mercury will occult Jupiter.

March 6, 2817: At 9:36 UTC Venus will occult Saturn.

April 11, 2818: At 20:41 UTC Mercury will occult Mars.

February 6, 2825: At 10:50 UTC Mars will occult Uranus.

2829/2830: Triple conjunction Mars-Saturn.

December 15, 2830: At 09:40 UTC Venus will occult Mars.

2842/2843: Triple conjunction Mars-Jupiter.

December 16, 2846: Transit of Venus.

December 14, 2854: Partial transit of Venus.

July 20, 2855: At 05:15 UTC Mercury will occult Jupiter.

2866: Triple conjunction Mars-Saturn.

March 16, 2880: Predicted possible impact date for asteroid (29075) 1950 DA, the near Earth object with the highest known probability of crashing into Earth.

Source: en.wikipedia.org...

edit on 9-6-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: List/colour

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Utnapisjtim
In fact, the word star comes from the Mesopotamian word stur (the Chaldean god of saturn). Throughout the bible, angels are often called stars.

In the case if the "star of Bethlehem", I believe the moving "star" was actually an angel.

I can understand how you can arrive at some of your conclusions when looking at how you treat words

The word star is not derived from the Chaldean word for Saturn transliterated so it looks similar. No, Eng. Star comes from Norse Stjerna via old high German words like Stern and Old Swedish Sterro, Old English: Steorra. This -rr- stem to replace the n-stem is modern.

Further you see the same word in Gr 'Aster' Lat 'Stella', they all come from the PIE *Ster, and see it in Persian Setare as in the name Esther - Star. In Sanskrit the S was lost and it became Taras.

Our word for star is ancient, and there has always been a word for star in Indo European languages that looks and sounds like our modern Star.

Well, what I said is based more on my opinion. I suppose I should have stated that first. Stur, Star, Stjerna and Saturn all sound very similar. Before the invention of telescopes, Saturn was nothing more than a star to the naked eye. I believe the god Saturn corresponds to Lucifer ('son of dawn' doesnt necessarily indicate a specific star/planet, its a title). Lucifer was the head of the angelic fleet, so Stur could be a title for him just as Adam (HaAdam) is a title for mankind. In the bible, the sons of Adam are always as numerous as the grains of sand (Adam means dirt), yet the angels are as numerous as the stars (they are creatures of light). So as Adam is the head of the adamic race, Stur could be the head of the star race.

That is my personal view. I understand it is not widely accepted.