Atheists being persecuted in the USA.

a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

It's exactly like that.

Here the majority of priests are actually highly educated, and many have degrees in scientific disciplines. Historically, many important scientific discoveries were done by religious people.

For example the big bang was theorized by a priest, and genetics by a monk.

My great-uncle was a priest and nuclear physicist.

The Vatican use its telescope to search for exoplanets and alien life.



I'm literally sad that the debate is so polarized in the anglo-saxon world because of fundamentalism, thinking that the bible somehow disprove modern science.

It only does if you read it literally, which the majority of Christians do not.


There is a middle path between belief in rational thinking and belief in religious values. They can coexist.

Belief in a personal god is not the defining factor to be a Christian.

A prefer 1000*times an atheist with humanist values than a judgemental Christian.

To me a judgemental Christian isn't a Christian because it values belief in dogma more than belief in values.

originally posted by: SpaceGoatFarts
Again, I believe the common denominator for these bigoted views is fundamentalism, which does not accept any other opinion than its own (by definition).

Hard to argue against that. Will be interesting to see what happens in the US, atheism is growing and in some ways is meeting the religious fundamentalism with some of it's own. I find it understandable even if it also seems a bit extreme at times.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
You've defined closed mindedness more so than fundamentalism. Though I can see how fundamentalists can be seen as closed minded.

Fundamentalism is by definition close-minded and anti-progressive.

Fundamentalism is the demand for a strict adherence to orthodox theological doctrines usually understood as a reaction against Modernist theology.

When religion became more progressive in Europe, the opposite movement took place in the US, to take their distance and exist as a different Church. It was a very bad move and is going to bring an increased obscurantism in the US.

a reply to: boymonkey74

By nature, we as human beings,desire conformity (others to think like us), for there is natural safety in numbers; from a purely physical perspective.

The more people that "think like I do" the safer that environment is for me to think in. This is purely natural, and it guides some of our actions, even if not fully understood while they are being enacted.

This truth becomes even more clear when discussing individual faith (belief in things without knowing/proving physically).

Whether you believe in something or nothing, it is a belief without knowing/proving physically; for the only way to know the truth of all things is to die and have it revealed (or not).

So in order to have the freedom of thought (desired by all human beings, as free thinking, creative beings) we naturally attempt to buffer opposing beliefs by lifting up our own and putting down theirs (persecution).

By lessening the numbers on the opposing side within an environment, one can create safety of thought for their faith; this goes all ways; religion vs religion; atheism vs religion; Christianity vs Islam; Islam vs Judaism; Hindu vs Confucianism etc.

If, within any environment, one "way of thinking" can become dominant; then those with that "way of thinking" can feel safe to think.

I am not saying this is right, or righteous, or correct; but it is natural and what we do by our very nature as free thinking beings.

To the OP's excellent point, and this cannot be overstated enough; no true christian would persecute another human being. As Christ did not persecute the other religions of his time, so too should the modern follower of Christ focus on their own thoughts, and never that of another human being. Religion (individual faith) is personal, and to attempt to force your "way of thinking" onto another human being produces friction, pain and persecution in life.

This is not a christian vs atheist concern, it is a fundamental human being concern by our very nature; so much so, we sometimes cannot even see it in ourselves.

God Bless,

originally posted by: SpaceGoatFarts
There is a middle path between belief in rational thinking and belief in religious values. They can coexist.

I've been saying this for a long time.

Belief in a personal god is not the defining factor to be a Christian.

A prefer 1000*times an atheist with humanist values than a judgemental Christian.

I just prefer someone who opens themselves up to evidence over someone who constantly demands evidence, but ignores every bit you hand them. It doesn't matter it they are christian, muslim, atheist, democrat, republican, human, dog, cat, etc. You gain nothing if you are unable to admit when you are wrong. Of course this isn't an easy feat to do. Some people are TERRIFIED of being wrong and I believe that may be a root cause of the extreme denialism of fundamentalists.

To me a judgemental Christian isn't a Christian because it values belief in dogma more than belief in values.

Technically this is a no true scotsman fallacy. But I agree with you, honoring dogma isn't what jesus or god wanted in the bible. In fact it is the exact opposite of what they wanted.

This is why I am an agnostic. I accept that anything that doesn't have adequate evidence for or against it just gets the answer "I don't know." It is perfectly ok in my book to admit that I or anyone else doesn't know (this is another problem that fundamentalists get into their go to answer for questions we don't know the answer to is always "God" and that it doesn't need to be elaborated on any further)

a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

Atheism will have to take almost completely opposite position to exist as opposed to Christian fundies. It means an increase of materialism and objectivism, which will make atheists also become caricatures of themselves.

Atheism and humanist values should be able to coexist, but it will not be encouraged. You can already see this on American internet boards that the limits between atheism and objectivism become blurry, and it will be very bad because it will encourage selfishness and moral relativism.

a reply to: SpaceGoatFarts

Well that is why the atheists here have started to become more fundamental as well. It's funny how Newton's third law applies socially as well. Many Christians in America become crazy fundamentalists, as a result the atheists become more vocal and less tolerant of Christians as they eek towards fundamentalism themselves (for one, outright denying that a god exists is just as fool hardy and arrogant as fundamentalist Christians saying that the Earth is 6000 years old)

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I completely agree.

This is what I meant in my original posts when saying that discussing these topics with most Americans has now become a pain in the arse as both sides polarize their views to exist as "opposed to" and not simply as themselves.



Also I don't think atheist are really "persecuted" as stated in the OP

As a reminder, Christians are being killed right now for being Christians.

That's persecution

I don't think atheists have been forced to do anything against their will, let alone be killed, because of their beliefs.

a reply to: SpaceGoatFarts

Also keep in mind if you try to straddle the middle ground, you are either misunderstood by either party or they view you as the opposite. This is why I said that us agnostics get lost in the mix. When we enter a debate, Christians (especially the fundamentalist variety) tend to just group us under the atheist label. I've stated time again that god and evolution can coexist, or god and any other theory that fundamentalists have issues with can coexist. But I'm still widely viewed as an atheist. My team is chosen for me without my input.

This brings up another fault that I like to highlight with this thinking. Dualism. You are either for us or against us. Dualism is such a simplistic way of thinking about things. Very little is ever simple enough to be boiled down to an either or situation. That is why we will never make a functioning A.I. using binary code or a working model of the universe (since that would incorporate life into it).

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
(for one, outright denying that a god exists is just as fool hardy and arrogant as fundamentalist Christians saying that the Earth is 6000 years old)

If by that you mean denying the existence of the "narcissistic, split personality nutter god" of the old testament is fool hardy and arrogant, then I'm both!...and I'm not even an atheist!

a reply to: Krazysh0t

This is why I said don't debate with fundies. They can't debate since they are deluded and close-minded.

The Vatican accepts evolution. Fundies are not representative of Christianity.




Also I'm going to do something very terrible and personally attack the guy in the video; but the "Amazing atheist" is a notorious bigoted arsehole and no one in their right mind should think he represents the views of atheism as a whole.

It's a disgusting waste of human flesh and up to par with the people he attacks in his video.

This is from a video he posted of himself. I warn you, this link is not safe for work so don't click it if you don't want to see it i.imgur.com...

originally posted by: Cogito, Ergo Sum

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
(for one, outright denying that a god exists is just as fool hardy and arrogant as fundamentalist Christians saying that the Earth is 6000 years old)

If by that you mean denying the existence of the "narcissistic, split personality nutter god" of the old testament is fool hardy and arrogant, then I'm both!...and I'm not even an atheist!

Well the fundamentalist version of god obviously doesn't exist. I can easily chalk up many of the "miracles" in the OT as nothing more than natural disasters and many of the ancient prophets were probably just talking to themselves or just flat out lying. But to outright deny that a god or gods exist is fool hardy.

originally posted by: tsingtao

boo frikin hoo.

and God WILL forbid it.

just be glad atheists can marry in all 57 states and can get a wedding cake without filing a lawsuit.

Gay atheists can't. I think legally forcing someone to uphold a religion they don't subscribe is a form of persecution.

originally posted by: SpaceGoatFarts
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I completely agree.

This is what I meant in my original posts when saying that discussing these topics with most Americans has now become a pain in the arse as both sides polarize their views to exist as "opposed to" and not simply as themselves.



Also I don't think atheist are really "persecuted" as stated in the OP

As a reminder, Christians are being killed right now for being Christians.

That's persecution

I don't think atheists have been forced to do anything against their will, let alone be killed, because of their beliefs.

Where are Christians killed for being Christians?

I only ask because there are 13 countries where being an atheist is punishable by death, and I get the feeling they would line up pretty well. Now that doesn't include other places where it happens dispite the law, but you get the point.

The funny part is, those countries are the ones with no separation of religion and state. They have no respect or value for anyone outside their religion.

a reply to: mahatche

Fair point, the countries where apostasy is punishable by death equally persecute atheists and christians.

Then you have all the other muslim countries were radicals are killing christians out of hate.

I don't think atheists are subject to such violence regularly outside incidents involving crazies (I was talking about organized violence), and I don't believe they are being persecuted in the US.

Do you?


Also criticizing countries with no separation of church and state while living in one where people have to swear on the bible, use money saying in god we trust and learning creationism in school is a bit ironic

There are still things to do before the US are in position to make criticism about secularism...

originally posted by: SpaceGoatFarts
a reply to: mahatche

Fair point, the countries where apostasy is punishable by death equally persecute atheists and christians.

Then you have all the other muslim countries were radicals are killing christians out of hate.

I don't think atheists are subject to such violence regularly outside incidents involving crazies (I was talking about organized violence), and I don't believe they are being persecuted in the US.

Do you?

Depends what your definition of persecution is. If it's only violence against people, no it's not common in America, but Christians aren't regularly killed here either.

If persecution includes being forced to uphold religions you don't subscribe to, yes it does happen here. There is no reason why a gay atheist or non christian should have to legally follow christian law.

a reply to: mahatche

Do American Christians claim to be persecuted like the guy in the video?

My point is the guy is just angry and smug and not rational, like the people he criticizes.


The most vocal atheists in the USshould be reasonable and attack the real ennemy, fundamentalism, instead of religion in general. There are no shortage of perfectly fine secular countries with a religious majority.

originally posted by: SpaceGoatFarts
a reply to: mahatche

Also criticizing countries with no separation of church and state while living in one where people have to swear on the bible, use money saying in god we trust and learning creationism in school is a bit ironic

There are still things to do before the US are in position to make criticism about secularism...

Just read your addition. I don't see how it's ironic on my part. I don't support it here either. I won't support anything that even comes close to resembling a theocracy. I'm not religious, and think this specific idea of god is a bit immoral. If he is real and waiting to punish me, I guess I have it coming, but I'd appreciate it if people didn't force me to go along with religions I view as wrong.

originally posted by: SpaceGoatFarts
a reply to: mahatche

Do American Christians claim to be persecuted like the guy in the video?

My point is the guy is just angry and smug and not rational, like the people he criticizes.


The most vocal atheists in the USshould be reasonable and attack the real ennemy, fundamentalism, instead of religion in general. There are no shortage of perfectly fine secular countries with a religious majority.

I don't disagree with you. I'm agnostic, and genuinely feel opposed to many religious morals, but this brand of atheism probably annoys me as much as it does you. Amazing atheist is the type of asshole that makes good discussions impossible.

there is nothing wrong with a religious majority either, that's not going to change here, but majority doesn't get superior treatment in countries that practice equality and justice.

a reply to: mahatche

Modern Christians don't believe god punishes people, only that people punish themselves.

Fundamentalism is from another time.